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Wheel Removal

Meoncoast

Meoncoast

an Ocean by the Sea
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I had issues getting wheels off due to the alloy and the steal together think any fitter will tell you common with today's alloy wheels and issue on many make of car hence the heavy hammers in workshop. +1 for copper slip
 
briwy

briwy

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Think you'll find torque settings are for a lightly lubricated thread. After 50 years in the motor trade l'll stick with what I know.
Perhaps this will help.

If a fastener or bolt is stated 'dry' torque then that is what it should be done,
When you apply a torque to a fastener. It, in effect puts the bolt under a specific preload/ tension.

The 'nuts and bolts' of it are :- If you apply torque to a bolt / fastener, you are essentially stretching or preloading the bolt. This is done to prevent the fastener from giving / relaxing too much and the nut/bolt from coming loose - or even worse, falling off.
The thing that the manufacturers work out for you is “how much preload do I need?” to stop my bolt releasing itself.

We use a basic rule for our industrial applications, this is usually based on a preload of 68% of the yield strength of the fastener.
This value was chosen because any given bolt/fastener has a 'proof load value' which is related to its material grade and diameter.
Proof load is usually 90 percent of the yield strength of the bolt / fastener.
This in effect guarantees that the bolt / fastener will not permanently yield or stretch.
If it were to do this, you loose your desired preload thus leaving the fastener to eventually fail or fall out.

This next bit is why the 'Dry figure' is important , you could easily assume why isn't the proof load level used for setting the preload of the fastener .
This is not done because of friction !!.
Ie - the coefficient of friction between a bolt threads and nut threads can vary tremendously.
The coefficients of friction can vary as much as +/-20% of the original nominal values.
So if a value close to the proof load (i.e. 80%) is used and the variance was in the suggested range (+/-20%) maybe for arguments sake around 18% , you could end up going close to or beyond the proof load and yielding the fastener, thus applying no preload.
It would still feel tight but would be stretched beyond its real capacity

Sorry for being so long winded , but the above is why you should know what effect the the coefficient of friction has on the nuts and bolts you use.
If the fasteners are dry they can normally vary the coefficient of friction from 0.15 to 0.25.
But if any sort of lubrication is used (ie.thread paste/ dry film lube/ WD-40), etc.), it will change the coefficient of friction quite a bit. 0.20 is used for the unlubed coefficient of friction and 0.09 for the lubed coefficient of friction. So As you can see the use of Lubrication in effect half the expected friction applied to the bolts / threads. ie its easier to tighten up, which unfortunately means you are possibly taking the bolt/ fastener threads past their design limit.
 
hotel california

hotel california

18 'till i die....
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Oh boy this is getting very complicated....;)

I never had any issues only tighten wheelnuts by hand only using standard wheelnuttools .
Reading above makes me even more happy i do not have a torque wrench becose then i had to take notice of all that .
Now i just thighten by hand , afther first ride thighten again to check , life can be simple:D
 
T6 CFO

T6 CFO

Mike
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Always just done by hand but the Cali is going to get a slightly more technical tighten so 180Nm with a torque for me.


Mike
 
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briwy

briwy

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I agree Wim, 99% of the time tightening by hand is OK. I don't think many people carry a torque wrench around to tighten the bolts when they fit a spare.
However the actual process of wheel to hub isn't simple. The bolts provide a force between the wheel and the hub and it is actually friction between these two that takes the load, not the bolts. Not enough friction and wheel will rotate relative to the hub putting the bolts into shear which they are not there for. Extreme case is the bolts will shear and the wheel come off.
So presumably that raises the question of whether the face of the hub and wheel contact should be greased as that will no doubt reduce the friction between the two regardless of what load is put on the bolts.
Catch 22. Grease and reduce the friction or grease and make it so you can get your wheels off. General opinion seems to be to lightly grease ( with alloys, steels should be alright) so they come off OK.
I guess there is enough safety factor built in to take care of it. Hopefully:)
Whatever works for you.
 
Loz

Loz

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There was also a TSB issued over the Touareg to correctly torque to 180NM as there were issues with wheel wobble if only torqued to 150...
 
californiakid

californiakid

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Perhaps this will help.

If a fastener or bolt is stated 'dry' torque then that is what it should be done,
When you apply a torque to a fastener. It, in effect puts the bolt under a specific preload/ tension.

The 'nuts and bolts' of it are :- If you apply torque to a bolt / fastener, you are essentially stretching or preloading the bolt. This is done to prevent the fastener from giving / relaxing too much and the nut/bolt from coming loose - or even worse, falling off.
The thing that the manufacturers work out for you is “how much preload do I need?” to stop my bolt releasing itself.

We use a basic rule for our industrial applications, this is usually based on a preload of 68% of the yield strength of the fastener.
This value was chosen because any given bolt/fastener has a 'proof load value' which is related to its material grade and diameter.
Proof load is usually 90 percent of the yield strength of the bolt / fastener.
This in effect guarantees that the bolt / fastener will not permanently yield or stretch.
If it were to do this, you loose your desired preload thus leaving the fastener to eventually fail or fall out.

This next bit is why the 'Dry figure' is important , you could easily assume why isn't the proof load level used for setting the preload of the fastener .
This is not done because of friction !!.
Ie - the coefficient of friction between a bolt threads and nut threads can vary tremendously.
The coefficients of friction can vary as much as +/-20% of the original nominal values.
So if a value close to the proof load (i.e. 80%) is used and the variance was in the suggested range (+/-20%) maybe for arguments sake around 18% , you could end up going close to or beyond the proof load and yielding the fastener, thus applying no preload.
It would still feel tight but would be stretched beyond its real capacity

Sorry for being so long winded , but the above is why you should know what effect the the coefficient of friction has on the nuts and bolts you use.
If the fasteners are dry they can normally vary the coefficient of friction from 0.15 to 0.25.
But if any sort of lubrication is used (ie.thread paste/ dry film lube/ WD-40), etc.), it will change the coefficient of friction quite a bit. 0.20 is used for the unlubed coefficient of friction and 0.09 for the lubed coefficient of friction. So As you can see the use of Lubrication in effect half the expected friction applied to the bolts / threads. ie its easier to tighten up, which unfortunately means you are possibly taking the bolt/ fastener threads past their design limit.

Whilst I can agree with all the technical jargon most common workshop practices don't follow these rules. Some mechanics due to time constraints will use air guns and wheel bolts/nuts will be way over their designated torque. Most torque wrenches in workshops are calibrated and tested twice yearly as is most equipment.
Your average home torque wrench in practice was tested when new and could be inaccurate either way after lots of use.
 
Borris

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I recently helped a young damsel in distress in a local Sainsbury's carpark. The rather upset young lady concerned was standing next to a newist sporty little white Audi with a very flat back tyre, (but only at the bottom you understand). After she had unsucessfully tried to call her Beau, I rashly agreed to change the wheel for her. It was then that I discovered that it too suffered from the same problem. After ten minutes of kicking and beating the tyre I managed to free it and replace it with the space saver in the boot. I then hit a problem. The very wide low profile wheel and tyre wouldn't fit in the boot. No matter what I tried there wasn't any way it was going to fit. WHAT A STUPID DESIGN!

Either supply a car with one of those squirty tins of temporary tyre repair foam and a compressor or make the boot big enough for a damaged wheel and tyre to fit into. What were Audi thinking of?

In the end she had to move all her fancy designer bits and bobs onto the floor and then drove off with the very dirty wheel and tyre perched on the pristine leather passenger seat. What happens if you have a passenger? Call for a recovery truck I suppose.

Have I got it wrong? Are people with these cars expected to call out the road side recovery bods just to change a wheel these days? If that's the case then why supply the space saver?:headbang Another excellent example of automotive style before practicality me thinks.

Sorry, I went slightly off piste there.
 
kave

kave

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I have been through shops breaking lock nuts on many vehicles now so I tend to do my own wheelchange with the exact torque and grease on bolte an hub.
If I have had any car at a workshop for service I usually untighten and tighten the bolts again. Very often the torque required for removing the bolts are really 5-10 times what the manufacturer requires. Probably because the general population never check their bolts after 50km or so. Better safe than sorry they probably reason.
 
docbob

docbob

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Lisburn
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T5 SE 180
Exactly the same issue with both summer alloys and winter steel rims. They seize onto the hub. Tyre place had to use a wooden chiock and a sledgehammer to get 3 of the 4 wheels off even with a little copper slip on the flange (ohh err...)
 
DavidKeith

DavidKeith

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Grangemouth
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I've noticed my wheel bolts are corroded on my one year old T5. Should I replace them or just spray them with grease?
 
Christine Kirk

Christine Kirk

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24
Thanks for your comment
also of note is the state of the Steel spare which is already rusting! should it at less than a year old?
 
sbmcd

sbmcd

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You should definitely NOT grease the bolts or the holes. The torque settings are for dry bolts. By all means clean/wire brush but no grease.
Not sure I agree with that, the threaded section can be coated with copper slip but non should be applied to the conical mating surface of the hub/bolt head. If the threaded section is causing friction it could result in not achieving the correct setting.
 
californiakid

californiakid

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YORK
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Not sure I agree with that, the threaded section can be coated with copper slip but non should be applied to the conical mating surface of the hub/bolt head. If the threaded section is causing friction it could result in not achieving the correct setting.
Worked in the motor trade for 50 years and a major utility for 15 of these also the consruction plant industry where grease/oil/lubricants are used on fasteners lots. If used sparingly lubricants make assembly/dissassembly easier. What would you prefer a wheel that will not come off or come off easily. Also remember as with tyres/wheel bolts/nuts should be checked regulary . I am not advocating you do this its your choice but used sparingly it alleviates a lot of problems.
 
Christine Kirk

Christine Kirk

Messages
24
Worked in the motor trade for 50 years and a major utility for 15 of these also the consruction plant industry where grease/oil/lubricants are used on fasteners lots. If used sparingly lubricants make assembly/dissassembly easier. What would you prefer a wheel that will not come off or come off easily. Also remember as with tyres/wheel bolts/nuts should be checked regulary . I am not advocating you do this its your choice but used sparingly it alleviates a lot of problems.
Have had an interesting conversation with VW customer services; they responded to my comments about the changing of wheel at the roadside, and apparently were pleased to know of a issue!
 
Perfectos

Perfectos

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Have had an interesting conversation with VW customer services; they responded to my comments about the changing of wheel at the roadside, and apparently were pleased to know of a issue!
Unfortunately I bet that interest lasted about as long as the phone call.
There is no way manufacturers are not aware of this issue, it has been an issue since god was a boy !
 
Ksar-el-kebir

Ksar-el-kebir

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East Northants
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Googled it and recommends between wheel and hub and on the bolts.
While I'm at it I will treat all the seals with the stuff I bought and thread lock the camping chairs.



Mike
Never on the bolts!
 

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