Wheel Removal

[Loz]

There was also a TSB issued over the Touareg to correctly torque to 180NM as there were issues with wheel wobble if only torqued to 150...

 

[californiakid]

Perhaps this will help.

If a fastener or bolt is stated 'dry' torque then that is what it should be done,
When you apply a torque to a fastener. It, in effect puts the bolt under a specific preload/ tension.

The 'nuts and bolts' of it are :- If you apply torque to a bolt / fastener, you are essentially stretching or preloading the bolt. This is done to prevent the fastener from giving / relaxing too much and the nut/bolt from coming loose - or even worse, falling off.
The thing that the manufacturers work out for you is “how much preload do I need?” to stop my bolt releasing itself.

We use a basic rule for our industrial applications, this is usually based on a preload of 68% of the yield strength of the fastener.
This value was chosen because any given bolt/fastener has a 'proof load value' which is related to its material grade and diameter.
Proof load is usually 90 percent of the yield strength of the bolt / fastener.
This in effect guarantees that the bolt / fastener will not permanently yield or stretch.
If it were to do this, you loose your desired preload thus leaving the fastener to eventually fail or fall out.

This next bit is why the 'Dry figure' is important , you could easily assume why isn't the proof load level used for setting the preload of the fastener .
This is not done because of friction !!.
Ie - the coefficient of friction between a bolt threads and nut threads can vary tremendously.
The coefficients of friction can vary as much as +/-20% of the original nominal values.
So if a value close to the proof load (i.e. 80%) is used and the variance was in the suggested range (+/-20%) maybe for arguments sake around 18% , you could end up going close to or beyond the proof load and yielding the fastener, thus applying no preload.
It would still feel tight but would be stretched beyond its real capacity

Sorry for being so long winded , but the above is why you should know what effect the the coefficient of friction has on the nuts and bolts you use.
If the fasteners are dry they can normally vary the coefficient of friction from 0.15 to 0.25.
But if any sort of lubrication is used (ie.thread paste/ dry film lube/ WD-40), etc.), it will change the coefficient of friction quite a bit. 0.20 is used for the unlubed coefficient of friction and 0.09 for the lubed coefficient of friction. So As you can see the use of Lubrication in effect half the expected friction applied to the bolts / threads. ie its easier to tighten up, which unfortunately means you are possibly taking the bolt/ fastener threads past their design limit.

Whilst I can agree with all the technical jargon most common workshop practices don't follow these rules. Some mechanics due to time constraints will use air guns and wheel bolts/nuts will be way over their designated torque. Most torque wrenches in workshops are calibrated and tested twice yearly as is most equipment.
Your average home torque wrench in practice was tested when new and could be inaccurate either way after lots of use.

 

[Borris]

I recently helped a young damsel in distress in a local Sainsbury's carpark. The rather upset young lady concerned was standing next to a newist sporty little white Audi with a very flat back tyre, (but only at the bottom you understand). After she had unsucessfully tried to call her Beau, I rashly agreed to change the wheel for her. It was then that I discovered that it too suffered from the same problem. After ten minutes of kicking and beating the tyre I managed to free it and replace it with the space saver in the boot. I then hit a problem. The very wide low profile wheel and tyre wouldn't fit in the boot. No matter what I tried there wasn't any way it was going to fit. WHAT A STUPID DESIGN!

Either supply a car with one of those squirty tins of temporary tyre repair foam and a compressor or make the boot big enough for a damaged wheel and tyre to fit into. What were Audi thinking of?

In the end she had to move all her fancy designer bits and bobs onto the floor and then drove off with the very dirty wheel and tyre perched on the pristine leather passenger seat. What happens if you have a passenger? Call for a recovery truck I suppose.

Have I got it wrong? Are people with these cars expected to call out the road side recovery bods just to change a wheel these days? If that's the case then why supply the space saver? Another excellent example of automotive style before practicality me thinks.

Sorry, I went slightly off piste there.

 

[kave]

I have been through shops breaking lock nuts on many vehicles now so I tend to do my own wheelchange with the exact torque and grease on bolte an hub.
If I have had any car at a workshop for service I usually untighten and tighten the bolts again. Very often the torque required for removing the bolts are really 5-10 times what the manufacturer requires. Probably because the general population never check their bolts after 50km or so. Better safe than sorry they probably reason.

 

[docbob]

Exactly the same issue with both summer alloys and winter steel rims. They seize onto the hub. Tyre place had to use a wooden chiock and a sledgehammer to get 3 of the 4 wheels off even with a little copper slip on the flange (ohh err...)

 

[DavidKeith]

I've noticed my wheel bolts are corroded on my one year old T5. Should I replace them or just spray them with grease?

 

[Christine Kirk]

Thanks for your comment
also of note is the state of the Steel spare which is already rusting! should it at less than a year old?

 

[sbmcd]

You should definitely NOT grease the bolts or the holes. The torque settings are for dry bolts. By all means clean/wire brush but no grease.

Not sure I agree with that, the threaded section can be coated with copper slip but non should be applied to the conical mating surface of the hub/bolt head. If the threaded section is causing friction it could result in not achieving the correct setting.

 

[californiakid]

Not sure I agree with that, the threaded section can be coated with copper slip but non should be applied to the conical mating surface of the hub/bolt head. If the threaded section is causing friction it could result in not achieving the correct setting.

Worked in the motor trade for 50 years and a major utility for 15 of these also the consruction plant industry where grease/oil/lubricants are used on fasteners lots. If used sparingly lubricants make assembly/dissassembly easier. What would you prefer a wheel that will not come off or come off easily. Also remember as with tyres/wheel bolts/nuts should be checked regulary . I am not advocating you do this its your choice but used sparingly it alleviates a lot of problems.

 

[Christine Kirk]

Worked in the motor trade for 50 years and a major utility for 15 of these also the consruction plant industry where grease/oil/lubricants are used on fasteners lots. If used sparingly lubricants make assembly/dissassembly easier. What would you prefer a wheel that will not come off or come off easily. Also remember as with tyres/wheel bolts/nuts should be checked regulary . I am not advocating you do this its your choice but used sparingly it alleviates a lot of problems.

Have had an interesting conversation with VW customer services; they responded to my comments about the changing of wheel at the roadside, and apparently were pleased to know of a issue!

 

[Perfectos]

Have had an interesting conversation with VW customer services; they responded to my comments about the changing of wheel at the roadside, and apparently were pleased to know of a issue!

Unfortunately I bet that interest lasted about as long as the phone call.
There is no way manufacturers are not aware of this issue, it has been an issue since god was a boy !

 

[Ksar-el-kebir]

Googled it and recommends between wheel and hub and on the bolts.
While I'm at it I will treat all the seals with the stuff I bought and thread lock the camping chairs.



Mike

Never on the bolts!

 

[T6 CFO]

Never on the bolts!

Thanks!

That was though posted in March 2017. Post 4 of this thread and sorted with post 5 the same day .


Mike

 

[Philfox3]

I’ve had a real problem getting the wheels off an 18 month old coast due to corrosion. I had a puncture in a front n/s tyre so started the process of replacing it with the spare. I’m away from home at the moment with my 87 year old mother. I couldnt get the wheel off the hub and ended up calling VW assist ( AA). The mechanic walloped the wheel off from the inside with a rubber mallet. He used his own jack suggesting the VW supplied Jack couldn’t take that amount of hammering as it make the jacking unstable. The VW /AA response was quick and efficient. I’m now sat in National Tyres in Norwich. The tyre fitter came through to tell me that the other wheel f/o/s was badly corroded and that he’d applied some grease. The wheels are 17” Davenports. Is this a warranty issue ?

 

[sbmcd]

I’ve had a real problem getting the wheels off an 18 month old coast due to corrosion. I had a puncture in a front n/s tyre so started the process of replacing it with the spare. I’m away from home at the moment with my 87 year old mother. I couldnt get the wheel off the hub and ended up calling VW assist ( AA). The mechanic walloped the wheel off from the inside with a rubber mallet. He used his own jack suggesting the VW supplied Jack couldn’t take that amount of hammering as it make the jacking unstable. The VW /AA response was quick and efficient. I’m now sat in National Tyres in Norwich. The tyre fitter came through to tell me that the other wheel f/o/s was badly corroded and that he’d applied some grease. The wheels are 17” Davenports. Is this a warranty issue ?

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I can't see how that would be a warranty issue.

All the wheels are likely to be the same, I'd have them others removed and a very light application of copper grease applied, I use an old toothbrush for that, to the spigot on the hub. I also apply a little to the wheel bolt threads,, remember only to the threaded section.

 

[Philfox3]

Thanks for the advice.

The wheel hubs seem, or the two I’ve seen seem really rusty. I thought the point of the VW Jack and spare wheel ( I deliberately didn’t go for 18” wheels so that I’d have a spare). Was that you could use the jack to change the wheel yourself in the event of a puncture. The AA man said yesterday that the amount of force required to get the wheels off make using the supplied jack dangerous. Echoed by the National tyre fitter today who said he’d used a wire brush to get rust off the contact surfaces. Both suggesting you can’t or would be foolish to change a wheel yourself.

My wife’s Audi is 8-9 years old. The wheels come off when the bolts are undone.

Just going back to the AA fella he said that all VW vans are the same and the metals incompatible/lead to corroding hence me pitching the issue in to the forum members.
Phil

 

[sbmcd]

Thanks for the advice.

The wheel hubs seem, or the two I’ve seen seem really rusty. I thought the point of the VW Jack and spare wheel ( I deliberately didn’t go for 18” wheels so that I’d have a spare). Was that you could use the jack to change the wheel yourself in the event of a puncture. The AA man said yesterday that the amount of force required to get the wheels off make using the supplied jack dangerous. Echoed by the National tyre fitter today who said he’d used a wire brush to get rust off the contact surfaces. Both suggesting you can’t or would be foolish to change a wheel yourself.

My wife’s Audi is 8-9 years old. The wheels come off when the bolts are undone.

Just going back to the AA fella he said that all VW vans are the same and the metals incompatible/lead to corroding hence me pitching the issue in to the forum members.
Phil

You can, and it's certainly not foolish with some simple measures.

 

[briwy]

You can, and it's certainly not foolish with some simple measures.

Wheel bolt threads should NOT be greased. The torque setting is for dry threads.

 

[sbmcd]

Wheel bolt threads should NOT be greased. The torque setting is for dry threads.

What do you think the torque difference would be between nice new clean bolts and fresh tapped holes and 10 year old dry corroded threads and studs?

 

[briwy]

I have no idea, why is that relevant?

 

[sbmcd]

I have no idea, why is that relevant?

I have no doubt there will a significant difference.

 

[andyinluton]

I have no doubt there will a significant difference.

The thread in the hub will have been cleaned out by removing the stud when taking the wheel off & the thread on the stud at the point where it is tightened up will have spent its life protected from corrosion due to being embedded in the hub so there shouldn’t be much difference at all.

 

[sbmcd]

My knowledge from working in the high pressure gas industry is condition of the threads, nut surface finish and washer surfaces make a significant difference to the torque settings.

 

[briwy]

So did you grease bolt threads in the gas industry? Guess not.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Oh God not yet another debate about greasing your studs (or not, and with what). It's done to death regularly on this and other automotive forums. Give it up guys, no one is going to win it.

BUT... the CORRECT ( ) answer is that a faintish smear of copper grease never did anyone any harm, AFAIK. It's anti-seize, not a lubricant. I use it on my rally cars and my regular motorsport mechanic advises it, based on his lifetime of real world experience.

How tight you want to torque is in practice very much about the condition of the wheels and their surfaces (fresh powder coating on steels is a nightmare for nuts coming loose very quickly - ask me how I know). Yet I bet loads of Cali owners are having their various non-OEM wheels torqued to the "wrong" settings, which is ironic given the recent threads agonising over the structural integrity of said wheels.

Okay back in me box.