Wild camping outlawed

[WelshGas]

We’d do at least two overnight camps on Dartmoor preparing for the Ten Tors, so even if landowners give their consent for camping for the main event, the 400 or so teams will still need individual consent from the landowner to train.

Well you know who to blame, and it ain't the Landowners.

 

[Amarillo]

Well you know who to blame, and it ain't the Landowners.

The Darwells understood the assumed right to wild camp when they bought the estate in 2011. So yes, I can blame them. And the judge who interpreted the law, and the barristers on both sides, and the people who broke the rules.

But I reckon most of the rule breaking is not on land marked on the national park map as camping permitted but close to car parks and roads where camping has never been permitted.

I really cannot believe that many people would hike to the summit of Great Mis Tor, camp the night and leave a trail of detritus behind them. Perhaps the odd banana skin tucked in a rock crevice, but nothing worse than a picnicer might leave behind.

 

[Wesel]

The fundamental reason, and unfortunately we are all part of the problem, is that there are now too many campervans, that it has become a fashion. And as it continues, the difficulties are only beginning.

 

[WelshGas]

The Darwells understood the assumed right to wild camp when they bought the estate in 2011. So yes, I can blame them. And the judge who interpreted the law, and the barristers on both sides, and the people who broke the rules.

But I reckon most of the rule breaking is not on land marked on the national park map as camping permitted but close to car parks and roads where camping has never been permitted.

I really cannot believe that many people would hike to the summit of Great Mis Tor, camp the night and leave a trail of detritus behind them. Perhaps the odd banana skin tucked in a rock crevice, but nothing worse than a picnicer might leave behind.

Unfortunately the Judge disagrees with you.
If you feel so strongly then Appeal against the Decision.
Moaning about it won't change anything.

 

[The Tall Luthier]

The Darwells understood the assumed right to wild camp when they bought the estate in 2011. So yes, I can blame them. And the judge who interpreted the law, and the barristers on both sides, and the people who broke the rules.

But I reckon most of the rule breaking is not on land marked on the national park map as camping permitted but close to car parks and roads where camping has never been permitted.

I really cannot believe that many people would hike to the summit of Great Mis Tor, camp the night and leave a trail of detritus behind them. Perhaps the odd banana skin tucked in a rock crevice, but nothing worse than a picnicer might leave behind.

It always disappoints me at how quickly some folks will doff the cap, tug the forelock to support those that hold the power in this country whilst simultaneously denigrate people like themselves.

This hedge fund chap had a choice, to be a selfish prig or to share the spoils of his entitled, lucrative, gains. He chose badly and yet is supported for his actions, I just don’t understand why one would support such a pathetic human.
We see it in our country’s politicians too, constantly electing posh boys over commoners. Oh well, Nowt so queer I guess

 

[Cali Phillip]

The landowner who runs a lucrative shoot. Has that bit been mentioned…?

coincidence that

The landowner who runs a lucrative shoot. Has that bit been mentioned…?

Supported by

Glad I live in Scotland where it IS allowed ……. Everywhere

and it seems to on the whole work well:

 

[Hawthorn37]

And as it is an organised event I'm sure the organisers can make the necessary arrangements and get the necessary permission.
No different to when I was in the Scouts when we used to get the necessary permission from farmers and landowners. It was never a problem as we followed a Code of Practice.
The problem has been created by the " To**ers " who don't. Vent your fury on them not the Landowners who have to clean up after them so the rest of us can enjoy the outdoors without having to look out for the chemical effluent from porta potties, used barbecues and whatever else the " wild camper " has dumped.

I noticed this reference to campers leaving mess behind in the press piece from the land owners team. I think that it’s an easy swipe at campers that both feeds off and reinforces some bigoted opinions. On the other hand, the National Parks representative who was interviewed said it was a retrograde step, as open access had proved successful in getting more people to embrace their natural surroundings, and by doing so, people were more inclined to protect nature.

Personally, in my time walking in such National Parks during the past few decades, the only messes we’ve come across (rarely) have been caused by farmers on their own land.

Anyone want to take the bet that this particular owner has a corner of a field he’d prefer NOT to feature on the cover of Horse And Hound??

 

[GrannyJen]

I have always understood, for over 60 years now, there is no public land in England, almost every acre is privately owned.

Despite that from my earliest wanderings I have never, ever, had problems parking my tent somewhere, and if a sign on a farmers gate said "Private: No camping" then I respected that.

I am of course an ancient old dear that last camped in my mountain tent in 1994, in a field, just off the South west coast path, and having asked permission first. It never entered my head then that permission would be denied, or, in the event of permission being unobtainable, anyone would object.

I find it sad now that we are retrenching back to the days of the "great Trespass". There is an argument that it is self-inflicted by an erosion of standards that once we all took for granted would be adhered to, but the heavyweight use of law I find totally unpalatable.

 

[Digger]

Sad that a tiny minority who abuse the countryside can be used to justify restrictions. This case is a land owner who has removed the last free area in England but why is the land not open to use for recreation if no damage or harm is caused. There should be a right to roam over all open land unless under crops or livestock. We have the right to roam in Scotland and apart from idiots who have no respect it works fine. Too much is now owned by too few and intolerance is becoming evident in all aspects of life in this country. Is there an answer?

 

[Cali Phillip]

Sad that a tiny minority who abuse the countryside can be used to justify restrictions. This case is a land owner who has removed the last free area in England but why is the land not open to use for recreation if no damage or harm is caused. There should be a right to roam over all open land unless under crops or livestock. We have the right to roam in Scotland and apart from idiots who have no respect it works fine. Too much is now owned by too few and intolerance is becoming evident in all aspects of life in this country. Is there an answer?

and we still have access issues with a small minority of landowners and their tenants even with right to responsible access.

 

[Cali Phillip]

The landowner who runs a lucrative shoot. Has that bit been mentioned…?

Close links on their estate webpage to the countryside alliance who appears to be well fund, here talking about 1 case costing £98K https://www.countryside-alliance.org/our-work/campaign-for-shooting

 

[Amarillo]

Sad that a tiny minority who abuse the countryside can be used to justify restrictions. This case is a land owner who has removed the last free area in England but why is the land not open to use for recreation if no damage or harm is caused. There should be a right to roam over all open land unless under crops or livestock. We have the right to roam in Scotland and apart from idiots who have no respect it works fine. Too much is now owned by too few and intolerance is becoming evident in all aspects of life in this country. Is there an answer?

Well put.

And of course we all have to deal with the consequences of anti social behaviour. I’m forever picking up crisp packets and fast food containers that have blown onto my front garden, presumably defenestrated by passing motorists.

In fact, I would lay a wager that I collect, proportionately, 10 times more rubbish from my small London plot than the Darwalls clear from their 4000 acre estate.

I don’t give it a second thought.

 

[Hawthorn37]

Well put.

And of course we all have to deal with the consequences of anti social behaviour. I’m forever picking up crisp packets and fast food containers that have blown onto my front garden, presumably defenestrated by passing motorists.

In fact, I would lay a wager that I collect, proportionately, 10 times more rubbish from my small London plot than the Darwalls clear from their 4000 acre estate.

I don’t give it a second thought.

I agree. We live off a main road into Derby and each time I mow “the councils grass” I come across all sorts thrown from passing vehicles. But you just do it don’t you. In my opinion, this case is more about keeping the hoy-polloy at a decent arms length from the wealthy shooters than it is about any mess created. It’s so transparent.

 

[WelshGas]

Well put.

And of course we all have to deal with the consequences of anti social behaviour. I’m forever picking up crisp packets and fast food containers that have blown onto my front garden, presumably defenestrated by passing motorists.

In fact, I would lay a wager that I collect, proportionately, 10 times more rubbish from my small London plot than the Darwalls clear from their 4000 acre estate.

I don’t give it a second thought.

And how many Turds?

 

[Amarillo]

And how many Turds?

About one a week. Mostly fox, but possibly some cat, and about twice a year, dog.

Neighbours on the local ‘Nextdoor’ group have reported human, but not us in 12 years.

The 4000 acre wood where I walk Meg regularly is littered with human turd where it borders the golf course.

If Mr and Mrs Darwall think that banning camping without consent on access land will stop people having bowel movements on their land they are going to be disappointed.

 

[Cali Phillip]

I agree. We live off a main road into Derby and each time I mow “the councils grass” I come across all sorts thrown from passing vehicles. But you just do it don’t you. In my opinion, this case is more about keeping the hoy-polloy at a decent arms length from the wealthy shooters than it is about any mess created. It’s so transparent.

Seems to me like the anti social behaviour that is endemic in wider society came to the countryside when they couldn't leave the UK.
On the subject of turds, well the government squeezed the councils and so now there many less places to go than 13years ago.
The outdoor industry is going towards bagging said turds and removing from the hill, on our local hill Ben Nevis the huge three peaks pressure makes other options not viable. https://www.abacusmountainguides.co...aqubN83ogtkS6Z0I-gnpM1nLeDRwFhK_VK7RVVkHwlB0A

 

[California_Ocean]

Too many people with too much money and too much time - my 3 favourite sports, mountain-biking, snowboarding and sailing have also changed beyond recognition in the last 20 years.

The increasing numbers of e-bikes have led to what can only be described as enabling fat yobs to access areas they would previously never have been physically capable of getting to - the bikes weigh a ton and are piloted by riders with little experience so they are pi$$ing off all the hikers and more and more trails are being closed to mountain bikers - not to mention the animosity shown towards us by hikers etc.

I used to love snowboarding, but there has been huge investment in ski-resorts with lifts increasing massively in capacity and more and more people being able to afford it - unfortunately the slopes themselves have remained the same size. The result - endless queuing on the motorways to get to the resorts, at the overspill car-parks, at the ticket sales, at the lifts ... and finally on the slopes as thousands of people slide in unison back to the bottom, only to queue up to repeat the process. Gone are the days when the great slopes were a 45 minute drive away, little queuing, and you could have a good thrash around and be back home for afternoon tea. There are still a few where the more scary black runs are relatively clear, but waiting 45 mins for something to eat and all the queueing has killed it for me. Snowboard touring works, but you don't get much time on the board compared to the time spent climbing.

... and sailing ... god help you if your quiet little anchorage gets invaded by what can only be described as a travelling rave on water ...

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.... when this lot turn up, its up-anchor, open the sea-cock to empty the holding tanks, and snake out through the swimmers, waving as you go.

Bah Humbug!! .... am I turning into a grumpy old man?

 

[Mickyb123]

Glad I live in Scotland where it IS allowed ……. Everywhere

Actually it’s not!

 

[Amarillo]

... and sailing ... god help you if your quiet little anchorage gets invaded by what can only be described as a travelling rave on water ...

.... when this lot turn up, its up-anchor, open the sea-cock to empty the holding tanks, and snake out through the swimmers, waving as you go.

Bah Humbug!! .... am I turning into a grumpy old man?

I understand your pain with e-bikes in the mountains.

I’ve been sailing dinghies in Chichester harbour since 1975. People moaned when canoes gave way to windsurfers, and now sailboards have given way to foil boards.

But I can’t but help enjoy seeing people out on the water on whatever mode of transport they prefer.

But it is the equipment that has really changed. We used to sail in shorts, tee shirt, wool sweater, bare feet or plimsoles and a cagoule tucked away somewhere.

Now it’s wetsuits or dry suits, wet socks, gloves and helmet. After my first good crack on the head by a boom I learned to duck whenever jibing.

 

[chockswahay]

Actually it’s not!

Well, I'm not looking for an argument, just saying that reasonably speaking access to common land including tent camping is lawful in Scotland whereas in England and Wales it is not.

 

[Amarillo]

Well, I'm not looking for an argument, just saying that reasonably speaking access to common land including tent camping is lawful in Scotland whereas in England and Wales it is not.

The BIG difference is that camping is allowed in Scotland unless specifically prohibited, whereas in England it is banned unless specifically allowed.

As far as I know, parts of Dartmoor were the only area in England and Wales where it was specifically allowed, until the Darwalls’ case in the High Court was decided.

 

[Cali Phillip]

Too many people with too much money and too much time - my 3 favourite sports, mountain-biking, snowboarding and sailing have also changed beyond recognition in the last 20 years.

The increasing numbers of e-bikes have led to what can only be described as enabling fat yobs to access areas they would previously never have been physically capable of getting to - the bikes weigh a ton and are piloted by riders with little experience so they are pi$$ing off all the hikers and more and more trails are being closed to mountain bikers - not to mention the animosity shown towards us by hikers etc.

I used to love snowboarding, but there has been huge investment in ski-resorts with lifts increasing massively in capacity and more and more people being able to afford it - unfortunately the slopes themselves have remained the same size. The result - endless queuing on the motorways to get to the resorts, at the overspill car-parks, at the ticket sales, at the lifts ... and finally on the slopes as thousands of people slide in unison back to the bottom, only to queue up to repeat the process. Gone are the days when the great slopes were a 45 minute drive away, little queuing, and you could have a good thrash around and be back home for afternoon tea. There are still a few where the more scary black runs are relatively clear, but waiting 45 mins for something to eat and all the queueing has killed it for me. Snowboard touring works, but you don't get much time on the board compared to the time spent climbing.

... and sailing ... god help you if your quiet little anchorage gets invaded by what can only be described as a travelling rave on water ...

Croatia - Party route | Sailweek™

Fully inclusive skippered sailing holidays in Croatia and Greece. Choose your party or adventure sail week route, decide the date and go.

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.... when this lot turn up, its up-anchor, open the sea-cock to empty the holding tanks, and snake out through the swimmers, waving as you go.

Bah Humbug!! .... am I turning into a grumpy old man

Well, I'm not looking for an argument, just saying that reasonably speaking access to common land including tent camping is lawful in Scotland whereas in England and Wales it is not.

Camping

Be a responsible camper - follow the Access Code tips on: access, using stoves instead of lighting open fires and what to do when you need the loo!

www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot

 

[SamSara]

Unfortunately the Judge disagrees with you.
If you feel so strongly then Appeal against the Decision.
Moaning about it won't change anything.

If anyone does want to join the fight back
Follow Right to Roam and get involved.

Right to Roam Goes To War

Hello, Nope. Absolutely not. Today the High Court ruled in favour of abolishing our right to wild camp on Dartmoor – Dartmoor was the only place in England where it was legal. Alexander Darwall, a multimillionaire estate owner based in south Dartmoor has used his wealth to remove a right enjoyed...

www.righttoroam.org.uk

 

[Cali1]

I

If anyone does want to join the fight back
Follow Right to Roam and get involved.

Right to Roam Goes To War

Hello, Nope. Absolutely not. Today the High Court ruled in favour of abolishing our right to wild camp on Dartmoor – Dartmoor was the only place in England where it was legal. Alexander Darwall, a multimillionaire estate owner based in south Dartmoor has used his wealth to remove a right enjoyed...

www.righttoroam.org.uk

I live and work on Dartmoor,,I also run, ride, climb, swim and camp on the moor.
When ever a commercial activity takes place we have always ask permission from the land owner if it’s acceptable and give them a brief outline of activities and locations, this cover my RA but also gives the landowner a right to say no if they desire which does happen from time to time. Generally lambing season or a very wet or dry episode.
As far as we have been briefed we can still engage with all activities just not in the area of this case.
Wild camping, swimming, climbing has always been at the discretion of the land owner, it was never a free for all just a ruling that was never enforced.
It’s a real shame that wild camping has been outlawed within the area but there are more quiet and amazing locations within the moor we can all still go too. Next time you get out a OS map take a proper look, hidden gems inviting you in.
If you need any info on land ownership the parks can help you, most times they will know of the land owner permits camping etc.
I think we have to be careful and not escalate a problem that’s all ready volatile or we could possibly see other land owners following suit.

 

[Doorbundle]

The Mass Trespass on Kinder Scout, 24 April 1932 eventually led to the National Parks and incfreased access. Seems the UK is going backwards.

Mass trespass of Kinder Scout - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Thinks........".