Parking fine

[Amarillo]

On 30 December I went with my wife, parents and children to Greenwich Theatre to see a rather good pantomime of Sleeping Beauty.

Today I received a fine for "Payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage".

I paid for the parking by mobile phone app; two sessions, the first £10 for four hours, the second £2.50 for one hour. After four hours the app reminded me that the first session was about to expire and offered me an extension of 1, 2, 3 or 4 hours maximum extension. Being in pizza express at this time (yes - that's really my alibi), and nearly finished with our meal I selected an hour extension.

It turns out that the signage limits parking to four hours.

In my I appeal I have said it is unreasonable to offer a parking extension beyond four hours, and freely and willingly accept payment for parking beyond four hours, if the parking time limit is four hours.

What are the chances of having the PCN overturned?

 

[MattBW]

I suspect the fact that the parking app offered you an extension (and therefore offered you a legal transaction for the service) rather than warned you could be construed as misleading, I would think you have quite a high chance.

 

[MartG]

Tricky, what with signage to limit 4 hours, the app mislead you though... worth an appeal (especially as you've paid for the 'extra'!)

You like collecting parking fines!

 

[2into1]

I suspect you've a very high chance of avoiding a big bill. I'm just hoping you weren't the only one NOT using Tesco '3x value' vouchers in Pizza Express!

 

[GrannyJen]

Being in pizza express at this time (yes - that's really my alibi), and nearly finished with our meal I selected an hour extension.

It turns out that the signage limits parking to four hours.

In my I appeal I have said it is unreasonable to offer a parking extension beyond four hours, and freely and willingly accept payment for parking beyond four hours, if the parking time limit is four hours.

What are the chances of having the PCN overturned?

Can you prove that you were not sweating at the time?

 

[ArunAlec]

Tricky, what with signage to limit 4 hours, the app mislead you though... worth an appeal

You like collecting parking fines!

A Serial Offender.

 

[Amarillo]

A Serial Offender.

The previous two PCNs have been cancelled, so no offence.

The German autobahn speeding ticket and the Hungarian non-payment of vignette fine have been paid.

Then there was my wife’s infringement of a box junction and my driving on the wrong side of a bollard - both also paid, making an unwelcome 6 PCNs issued against Amarillo in three years.

It does sound rather careless!

 

[MarkVw2017]

Parking fines, BLOODY PARKING FINES, The worst way to generate money. Just a dirty tax. I got a £50 fine for Christmas shopping at a retail park and we shopped in every single shop as I try and support shops rather than the internet, which made us 45 mins late, spent over £400 and then got a £50 parking fine and to add insult to injury, the cheeky gets added a £1.50 admin fee so £51.50 total. Internet shopping next year!!

I feel your pain. Pay the fine and then fight them otherwise you'll have baliffs on your door taking your cali away. I have watched so many times "cant pay, well take it away", and amazing how many £30 fines ended up turning into £1000s, its soooo wrong! Just a horrible disgusting dirty tax!

 

[Velma's Dad]

I'm assuming the car park is a private business. It appears that you offered to purchase a service (ie parking until XX time) in consideration of a price they proposed, and they accepted that offer (via the app) so a valid contract exists. Anything written on a sign at the car park itself prior was over-ridden by your exchange communication with the company via their app on the day.

Think of it as though you had written them a letter saying "I offer to pay for (say) 5 hours parking, for £5.00", and they wrote back and said "okay we accept that". A contract would clearly exist, regardless of what they might have painted on a sign etc.

This is not legal advice but I would say you should have a good case on that basis.

 

[MarkVw2017]

On 30 December I went with my wife, parents and children to Greenwich Theatre to see a rather good pantomime of Sleeping Beauty.

Today I received a fine for "Payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage".

I paid for the parking by mobile phone app; two sessions, the first £10 for four hours, the second £2.50 for one hour. After four hours the app reminded me that the first session was about to expire and offered me an extension of 1, 2, 3 or 4 hours maximum extension. Being in pizza express at this time (yes - that's really my alibi), and nearly finished with our meal I selected an hour extension.

It turns out that the signage limits parking to four hours.

In my I appeal I have said it is unreasonable to offer a parking extension beyond four hours, and freely and willingly accept payment for parking beyond four hours, if the parking time limit is four hours.

What are the chances of having the PCN overturned?

Why do they care, they got you money, there just playing dirty aren't they or you got some jobsworth! The problem is, once the sign says 4 hours, they have made it clear. I bet that parking app you used has about 5000 pages of T&Cs hidden somewhere and states any road signs supersede the app! They should let you off, but they bloody wont!

 

[pjm-84]

Check the FOI request for that type of PCN.

I had one for turning illegally left recently in the London Borough of Ealing. I thought the signage was poor but I found a FOI request for that particular junction when it changed back in 2015 . Apparently, 1480 PCNs had been issued for the same illegal left turn, no appeals were successful. Oddly coming the opposite way, there were no fines.

 

[MartG]

How was your over 4 hours picked up, was it by a warden person or number plate camera?
You could argue that you had gone & come back or re-parked elsewhere within the car park, paying for the second 'visit'?
I also agree that they've taken your money, new contract of parking - you've at least that to recover from them if not let-off...

 

[Velma's Dad]

Check the FOI request for that type of PCN.

I had one for turning illegally left recently in the London Borough of Ealing. I thought the signage was poor but I found a FOI request for that particular junction when it changed back in 2015 . Apparently, 1480 PCNs had been issued for the same illegal left turn, no appeals were successful. Oddly coming the opposite way, there were no fines.

Amarillo's post refers to a 'PCN' but unclear whether it's a Penalty Charge Notice (which would be issued by a local authority, for parking on public land) or what is often called a Parking Charge Notice issued by a private parking operator using (no doubt deliberately deceptively) the same abbreviation.

I am guessing it's the latter. But it's of crucial importance because although they're both civil law matters (parking was decriminalised, for most purposes, some years ago), the process for appealing PCNs versus PCNs(!) is different.

 

[Amarillo]

The car park is privately owned and operated, located by a parade of shops on Greenwich High Road.

Clearly they have ANPR cameras as on the Parking Charge Notice they have the exact time of my arrival and departure. It took a significant length of time for me to download the app, register my vehicle, have my credit card authorised for payment and make the initial £10 payment. Records show a 15 minute time difference between arrival and initial payment.

There was also a two minute period between the first parking payment expiring and the second payment beginning - this was due to the palms of my hands sweating profusely in Pizza Express. (That’s my excuse anyway).

 

[Digger]

Definitely appeal and hopefully a positive outcome. Seems parking companies and on line gambling are growth industries and both should be strictly monitored and profits limited.

 

[Trevor Brown]

Pay, then appeal - you have nothing to lose.....although I have never succeeded in appealing any of my fines!!

 

[2into1]

There was also a two minute period between the first parking payment expiring and the second payment beginning

Isn't this why they have sent you the fine.... Perhaps nothing to do with your further purchase?

 

[Amarillo]

Isn't this why they have sent you the fine.... Perhaps nothing to do with your further purchase?

They are very vague: "payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage".

It could be the long delay in the initial payment while I grappled to download the app, register my credit card and make the payment.

It could be the two minute delay in extending the stay, I think this is highly unlikely.

It could be overstaying the four hour limit, I think this is most likely.

Previous experience is that these sort of Parking Charge Notices are cancelled quite readily if it is clear you would appeal to an independent adjudicator. Win or lose, it is the car park operator who pays the appeal fee.

 

[Amarillo]

Why do they care, they got you money, there just playing dirty aren't they or you got some jobsworth! The problem is, once the sign says 4 hours, they have made it clear. I bet that parking app you used has about 5000 pages of T&Cs hidden somewhere and states any road signs supersede the app! They should let you off, but they bloody wont!

I see it from both sides.

I own five flats in the local area. All have ample private parking for residents and all have parking issues of a different nature; and all need different solutions to the issues. The most interesting one is near Lee railway station. In 1960 when the flats were built, the council required a service road be built alongside the main road specifically so residents would park their cars on the service road, not the main carriageway. Later the privately owned road was adopted by the local council and written assurances given to residents that there would be no "road charges". The council now want to make the road a part of a controlled parking zone around Lee Station, and charge residents "parking charges" for a permit. They claim that "parking charges" are distinct from "road charges". We claim that it is clear from the original correspondence that residents would not have allowed their road to be adopted if they were going to be charged for parking on their own land. Parallel to this the council want to prohibit residents from parking on a privately owned strip of land alongside the service road, claiming it is part of the footway.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

I think that we are likely to lose this battle.

 

[Ting Tong]

Send them a blank bit of paper as a recorded letter. Then wait until the claim is passed to their debt recovery company. Then write back to the debt recovery company telling them that you complied with the terms of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and previously advised them that you were not the driver within the period specified by section x para y of the PoFA (it’s been a while and I’ll have to dig the letters out to be sure of the section) and here’s the Signed For. The PoFA doesn’t require that you have to inform them again and tell them that. I’ve done this 3 times for my children and none have gone any further.

 

[Calibus]

The previous two PCNs have been cancelled, so no offence.

The German autobahn speeding ticket and the Hungarian non-payment of vignette fine have been paid.

Then there was my wife’s infringement of a box junction and my driving on the wrong side of a bollard - both also paid, making an unwelcome 6 PCNs issued against Amarillo in three years.

It does sound rather careless!

Jeez, I do 85k miles on Britain’s roads every year and I’ve a clean license and never had a fine or invoice. However I have had 2 accidents that have both been deemed the third party’s fault, and one crash for cash attempt that’s still currently ongoing through the courts.

 

[Amarillo]

Jeez, I do 85k miles on Britain’s roads every year and I’ve a clean license and never had a fine or invoice. However I have had 2 accidents that have both been deemed the third party’s fault, and one crash for cash attempt that’s still currently ongoing through the courts.

In the three decades between 1985 and 2015 I received two speeding tickets and two parking tickets.

We both have clean licences: my speeding on the German autobahn was not endorsable.

I think that it is a combination of living in London with limited parking and the proliferation of ANPR controlled car parks and road junctions. When I passed the wrong side of a bollard to pass stationary left turning traffic to reach an empty right turning lane I knew that what I was doing was wrong, but didn’t consider the possibility of an ANPR camera watching the bollard.

Having said all that, we only have ourselves to blame for this more recent swarm of PCNs.

 

[T6 CFO]

Slightly off topic but killing time and was checking if 3 points on my licence were still valid.

If in doubt you can check here:-

View or share your driving licence information

Find out what information DVLA holds about your driving licence or create a check code to share your driving record, for example to hire a car

www.viewdrivingrecord.service.gov.uk

Mine weren’t. 3 point 30mph speeding stay on record for 4 years but expire after 3.


Mike

 

[NOD]

On 30 December I went with my wife, parents and children to Greenwich Theatre to see a rather good pantomime of Sleeping Beauty.

Today I received a fine for "Payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage".

I paid for the parking by mobile phone app; two sessions, the first £10 for four hours, the second £2.50 for one hour. After four hours the app reminded me that the first session was about to expire and offered me an extension of 1, 2, 3 or 4 hours maximum extension. Being in pizza express at this time (yes - that's really my alibi), and nearly finished with our meal I selected an hour extension.

It turns out that the signage limits parking to four hours.

In my I appeal I have said it is unreasonable to offer a parking extension beyond four hours, and freely and willingly accept payment for parking beyond four hours, if the parking time limit is four hours.

What are the chances of having the PCN overturned?

This is a civil matter and essentially an invoice not a fine.
Tell them You do not except the invoice. In order for them to enforce the invoice they have to take you to court. They rarely do that because of the costs involved, and the risk that if they lose the case it sets a presidence.
when they write back, reiterate it is an invoice and will not enter into any further corespondance.

the letters they send will get more aggressive with threats of escalating costs and CCJ’s etc. For a CCJ to be enforced it has to go to court, you lose the case and then fail to pay. It’s all smoke and mirrors.

in our carpark at work we have to display a permit, if that permit falls off or I’m in another car I get a ticket. We don’t even enter into any correspondence and ignore the threatening letters. It’s happened several times and they all disappear eventually.

 

[Anthony1]

Pay, then appeal - you have nothing to lose.....although I have never succeeded in appealing any of my fines!!

I've managed to get two parking fines cancelled. I used facts, photos (theirs) and logic.