Parking fine

[Blue Yonder]

On 30 December I went with my wife, parents and children to Greenwich Theatre to see a rather good pantomime of Sleeping Beauty.

Today I received a fine for "Payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage".

I paid for the parking by mobile phone app; two sessions, the first £10 for four hours, the second £2.50 for one hour. After four hours the app reminded me that the first session was about to expire and offered me an extension of 1, 2, 3 or 4 hours maximum extension. Being in pizza express at this time (yes - that's really my alibi), and nearly finished with our meal I selected an hour extension.

It turns out that the signage limits parking to four hours.

In my I appeal I have said it is unreasonable to offer a parking extension beyond four hours, and freely and willingly accept payment for parking beyond four hours, if the parking time limit is four hours.

What are the chances of having the PCN overturned?

Very good but you will need to hold your nerve and see it through to the end. Be sure to reply to their letters and take up the option of arbitration (Popla), but don't be disheartened if they don't find in your favour. Take no notice of letters from debt collection agencies. No one can come knocking on your door to chase you for money until they have won a court case and you have not paid the charge assuming they won the their case.

The parking company will eventually send you a Small Claims Court notice for you to fill in with your personal details it could 18 months to two years before you get to this point. On the claims form you have a section that you state basis of defence. Suggest you type your reasons on a separate sheet of paper and make a note on the form to see attached document. Be clear and concise and state facts not your options of what think of as fair, that's for the court to decide. Return the forms. Now sit tight and see if they go through with taking you to the small claims court. If they do you have a very strong case given your explanation. Note the parking companies are not interested in what is fair they expect you to have because it plays on your mind. STAY THE COURSE!

 

[Blue Yonder]

Pay, then appeal - you have nothing to lose.....although I have never succeeded in appealing any of my fines!!

Never pay the penalty charge then appeal! Payment will be seen as admission of guilt

 

[Blue Yonder]

On 30 December I went with my wife, parents and children to Greenwich Theatre to see a rather good pantomime of Sleeping Beauty.

Today I received a fine for "Payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage".

I paid for the parking by mobile phone app; two sessions, the first £10 for four hours, the second £2.50 for one hour. After four hours the app reminded me that the first session was about to expire and offered me an extension of 1, 2, 3 or 4 hours maximum extension. Being in pizza express at this time (yes - that's really my alibi), and nearly finished with our meal I selected an hour extension.

It turns out that the signage limits parking to four hours.

In my I appeal I have said it is unreasonable to offer a parking extension beyond four hours, and freely and willingly accept payment for parking beyond four hours, if the parking time limit is four hours.

What are the chances of having the PCN overturned?

Further to my first reply to your email. There is a point in contrast law that is relevant in your case. In contract law for a contract to exist there has to be an offer, acceptance, consideration, intention.

Parking fines, BLOODY PARKING FINES, The worst way to generate money. Just a dirty tax. I got a £50 fine for Christmas shopping at a retail park and we shopped in every single shop as I try and support shops rather than the internet, which made us 45 mins late, spent over £400 and then got a £50 parking fine and to add insult to injury, the cheeky gets added a £1.50 admin fee so £51.50 total. Internet shopping next year!!

I feel your pain. Pay the fine and then fight them otherwise you'll have baliffs on your door taking your cali away. I have watched so many times "cant pay, well take it away", and amazing how many £30 fines ended up turning into £1000s, its soooo wrong! Just a horrible disgusting dirty tax!
View attachment 53962

Don't pay the fine then appeal this will be seen as an admission of guilt. They cannot send in bailiffs before your case has gone to the small claims court then and only then after losing your case you fail to pay the charges. Before going to court the parking companies often send you documents stating they have passed the case to a debt recovery company. This is done to try and scare you into paying as many see this as the start of a process where bailiffs come knocking on your door. If you parked and did not pay the parking fee and there where no sound mitigating circumstances then just take the hit pay the fine and move on. But if you have good reason to dispute don't pay answer all the letters sent to explain why you believe why the charge is not enforceable and have your say in the small claims court if it gets that far

 

[stephen watson]

Tom
You could claim that you weren't at the nearby Pizza Express. In fact you were nowhere near - you were actually at Tramp's Nightclub in London and your'e quite sure because this is a very unusual thing to do for you.

 

[WelshGas]

And you have a “ No Sweating “ condition.

 

[Norfolk Jim]

Speak with these folk - they are absolutely superb and got my son off - wait for it.....6 Parking Charge Notices and 3 Penalty Charge Notices - don't ask.

IPS Driver Error

forums.pepipoo.com

They need all the info but excellent....

 

[Stoneybroke]

Parking fines, BLOODY PARKING FINES, The worst way to generate money. Just a dirty tax. I got a £50 fine for Christmas shopping at a retail park and we shopped in every single shop as I try and support shops rather than the internet, which made us 45 mins late, spent over £400 and then got a £50 parking fine and to add insult to injury, the cheeky gets added a £1.50 admin fee so £51.50 total. Internet shopping next year!!

I feel your pain. Pay the fine and then fight them otherwise you'll have baliffs on your door taking your cali away. I have watched so many times "cant pay, well take it away", and amazing how many £30 fines ended up turning into £1000s, its soooo wrong! Just a horrible disgusting dirty tax!
View attachment 53962

Let's not get confused between legally enforceable fines, issues under legislation, and those which are Parking Charge notices which are, in effect, an invoice for a beach of contract.
No valid action by a bailiff until, step one, the parking robbers take you to court and step 2, they get an enforcement order at court.

 

[Norfolk Jim]

Exactly - they cannot do a single thing unless or until you've actually been to court otherwise if bailiffs appeared and took anything that would be theft! As said go onto the Pepipoo.com forum and they'll tell you exactly what to do - they aren't just your average members on a forum as quite a few are lawyers and the like but be warned they need every single detail of the info you have been sent but once they have it they soon let you know exactly what to do - I must admit with my sons latter teenage years and his penalty charge notices and parking charge notices they saved me several hundred quid,

 

[Amarillo]

Exactly - they cannot do a single thing unless or until you've actually been to court otherwise if bailiffs appeared and took anything that would be theft! As said go onto the Pepipoo.com forum and they'll tell you exactly what to do - they aren't just your average members on a forum as quite a few are lawyers and the like but be warned they need every single detail of the info you have been sent but once they have it they soon let you know exactly what to do - I must admit with my sons latter teenage years and his penalty charge notices and parking charge notices they saved me several hundred quid,

I've made my representations. I think I have a good chance of them accepting what I say. If they don't accept my appeal I'll opt for the mediation service. Dependant on that outcome it will either be settled in my favour, I'll pay up and put the matter behind me or opt for the Small Claims' Court and abide by whatever decision is meted out.

 

[GrannyJen]

I've made my representations. I think I have a good chance of them accepting what I say. If they don't accept my appeal I'll opt for the mediation service. Dependant on that outcome it will either be settled in my favour, I'll pay up and put the matter behind me or opt for the Small Claims' Court and abide by whatever decision is meted out.

As you are becoming a serial offender with an encyclopaedic knowledge of dispute management I can only thank you for your contributions to this forum

 

[Beeechke1]

Its always worth an appeal I have just had a PCN cancelled for an offence (No valid pay and display/permit was purchased) on new years day at Pegwell Bay Country park Kent. The car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) system. I appealed based, on your expert advise on this forum, as follows:

My wife and I made our first visit to Pegwell Bay Country Park and made all reasonable efforts to comply with terms and conditions in force including the purchase of a valid permit which was displayed on the dashboard of our vehicle. My wife did her best to enter our correct vehicle registration, but was without her reading glasses, entered an invalid registration in error which we didn't notice at the time. Therefore the basis of this appeal is we made all reasonable efforts to comply, made the requested payment for our stay, obtained and displayed a permit valid in all respects other than a technical error with registration input. Clearly there has been no attempt to defraud Kent County Council and therefore it would be unreasonable in all respects to pursue this parking charge notice on the basis of a breach of contract. Copy of parking permit attached for your consideration.

Interesting their reply and cancellation carried the following advice:
If you are purchasing a pay and display ticket at any car park it is imperative that you check the dates, times and in this case, the vehicle registration number . We also advise that you retain any pay and display tickets for at least 6 weeks.

It was only by chance my ticket was still in the van when the notice came through.

 

[Norfolk Jim]

Well done - always worth the appeal

 

[soulstyledevon]

Walked past these guys the other day...
They’re all parked in these same spaces every Tuesday and Wednesday.
Two spaces up another car had 2 tickets with similar circumstances to these 3, if you know what I mean...

 

[Amarillo]

I've just has a rejection note for my representations. I now know what they think they have got me on, a failure to pay for the parking within ten minutes of arrival.

POPLA is the next stage.

 

[BerndRos]

I've just has a rejection note for my representations. I now know what they think they have got me on, a failure to pay for the parking within ten minutes of arrival.

POPLA is the next stage.

Did you pay for the parking inside or outside of the 10 minute allowable period ?

Have they provided proof of the signage, and your arrival & payment times ?

 

[BerndRos]

I see on post 14 you say there was a 15 minute period between arrival and first payment.

Was there a barrier, meaning could you have left after the 10 minute initial period without making any payment, if no barrier then I suggest this 10 minute period is reasonable as a free period.

 

[Amarillo]

I see on post 14 you say there was a 15 minute period between arrival and first payment.

Was there a barrier, meaning could you have left after the 10 minute initial period without making any payment, if no barrier then I suggest this 10 minute period is reasonable as a free period.

No barrier.

I started the payment process soon after arrival. First I had to download the payment app. Then I had to register my credit card by phone. I had to do this three times as I entered an incorrect digit twice. Each time I had to restart the registration process. Then I had to pay with my registered card on the app.

The process, it appears, took 15 minutes.

Screen shot of call to register card

 

[BerndRos]

No barrier.

I started the payment process soon after arrival. First I had to download the payment app. Then I had to register my credit card by phone. I had to do this three times as I entered an incorrect digit twice. Each time I had to redial the registration number. Then I had to pay with my registered card on the app.

The process, it appears, took 15 minutes.

I have had this issue myself, standing in a car park & downloading the app etc as you say, it’s a fidgety experience.

Looks like you will have to put it down to experience and pay the fine. Annoying though.

 

[Amarillo]

I have submitted a further appeal:

=====

You have rejected my original appeal - but that was because I was appealing the wrong thing! You stated, "Payment not made in accordance with terms displayed on signage".

I believe that you accept that I paid for five hours parking and stayed in your car park for a total of 4 hours 52 minutes and 1 second.

In your rejection notice you give further information of why you wish to increase the parking charge from £12.50 to £112.50, "Signs in the car park clearly advise payment for parking must be made within ten minutes of arrival and on this occasion you failed to do so."

On arrival in the car park I immediately went to pay. You allow payment by credit card but by a somewhat convoluted method.
#1 Download the parking app
#2 Register credit card
#3 Create an account on the parking app
#4 Link the registered credit card to the account
#5 Pay

The above may not be a complete or fully accurate description of the transaction process, but it is what I recall it to be.

As soon as #1 (Download the parking app) was complete I moved onto #2 (Register credit card), and I have a mobile record of this telephone call, with the time of call and length of call clearly recorded (see attachment). The call began at 13:24, within five minutes of my arrival at the car park, and this delay of five minutes represents the time taken to download your suggested and approved parking app. According to the phone log, it took a full six minutes to complete the credit card registration process, taking me beyond the ten minutes payment deadline. I then had to complete #3, #4 and #5 of your chosen payment collection process, the entire process lasting a full fifteen minutes.

You err in your judgement that payment was not made within ten minutes of arrival. I was ready to pay within ten minutes of arrival, but you were unable to accept payment within those ten minutes. This is analogous to arriving at a carpark with a manned payment booth, joining the back of of a queue, and on arriving at the front of the queue being told that payment for five hours parking had increased from £12.50 to £112.50 because ten minutes had lapsed. This is not reasonable, and would not be considered reasonable by any reasonable person.

In summary, payment was not received by you within ten minutes of my arrival of the car park due to the convoluted and time consuming payment method you offer to your clients for payment by credit card. It was not an attempt to avoid payment or part payment as I paid for five hours parking and remained parked for less than five hours. The penalty charge is therefore unreasonable and should be withdrawn.

 

[andyinluton]

This is analogous to arriving at a carpark with a manned payment booth, joining the back of of a queue, and on arriving at the front of the queue being told that payment for five hours parking had increased from £12.50 to £112.50 because ten minutes had lapsed.

Which is what happened to me at the Luton Airport drop off Zone last year - it was something like £2 for 5 mins then an additional £2/per minute after that & pay on exit. The first person in the queue had problems & held the queue up, meaning the next persons fee was something like £20 that they refused to pay, by the time the supervisor had authorised a reduction we had all been held up by another 10 minutes etc... this was happening in 6 queues simultaneously & the staff couldn't cope, the design of the carpark meant if we couldn't get out no-one else could get in, the queues were about 3 miles long to get in & it went on for hours. I now refuse to go anywhere near the place.

 

[Amarillo]

Which is what happened to me at the Luton Airport drop off Zone last year - it was something like £2 for 5 mins then an additional £2/per minute after that & pay on exit. The first person in the queue had problems & held the queue up, meaning the next persons fee was something like £20 that they refused to pay, by the time the supervisor had authorised a reduction we had all been held up by another 10 minutes etc... this was happening in 6 queues simultaneously & the staff couldn't cope, the design of the carpark meant if we couldn't get out no-one else could get in, the queues were about 3 miles long to get in & it went on for hours. I now refuse to go anywhere near the place.

Luton by car is hideous. At Stanstead they just open the barriers when it gets bad and everyone evades drop off payment.

 

[Moakesy]

Luton by car is hideous. At Stanstead they just open the barriers when it gets bad and everyone evades drop off payment.

I have had this ‘lift the barrier and on your way’ happen to me at Luton airport a couple of times. The Contactless system didn’t work when it was raining when it was first installed, although I think they have fixed it now.

I live quite close and often pick up relatives from there....the airport pick up situation is truly horrific and a gawd awful experience.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Some years back, after the Lorraine Chase era (showing my age there), Luton evolved into a pretty decent airport and I used to use it regularly for short business trips. But they've now over-developed it and the land side infrastructure can't cope.

I gave up on it pretty much the day they introduced an 'opportunity' to pay extra to avoid the horrendous early morning security queues. I did go through there again recently and now they've put so many huge shops in the terminal that there's no room for people who are all squashed up at one end and you can't even find a place to sit down. Awful.

It just seems to cater now for the poor sods flying home to eastern Europe after doing all the jobs we don't want to do. A bit like Victoria coach station with Armani and Ted Baker.

 

[Amarillo]

Some years back, after the Lorraine Chase era (showing my age there), Luton evolved into a pretty decent airport and I used to use it regularly for short business trips. But they've now over-developed it and the land side infrastructure can't cope.

I gave up on it pretty much the day they introduced an 'opportunity' to pay extra to avoid the horrendous early morning security queues. I did go through there again recently and now they've put so many huge shops in the terminal that there's no room for people who are all squashed up at one end and you can't even find a place to sit down. Awful.

It just seems to cater now for the poor sods flying home to eastern Europe after doing all the jobs we don't want to do. A bit like Victoria coach station with Armani and Ted Baker.

 

[Amarillo]