2023 Ocean leaking roof fabric

[CaliforniaCylus]

From Liverpool? Who was your sales guy?

I was replying to Andy C Berks.

My dealer (not Liverpool) and VW are just stating it needs to be diagnosed without any wider acknowledgement or dealing with the ingress captured on photo / video...

I guess it's box ticking but if the dealer sprays an egg cup of water and says all is ok... What do we do?

 

[Andy C Berks.]

Did you hear back?

Hope you have a better outcome than my chat today where they stonewalled any suggestions of a leak problem, going as far as stating they checked their system and were not able to find any issues.

Just repeated multiple times it needs to be diagnosed at the dealers.

No - will chase early next week. I did suggest they review this site and the German one, as well as sending them pics of mine leaking. Maybe everyone on this thread needs email them if they haven’t got enough problems logged on their system. Can’t for the life of me imagine that there isn’t something going on in the right circles within VW, even if the people on the ground aren’t aware, yet!

 

[Andy C Berks.]

Did I say I knew them before I bought it? Or you making stories up in your head ?

I was only going by what you said, perhaps be a bit clearer next time ? You obviously make friends very easily, you only bought it a few weeks ago. Maybe go chat with them instead then rather than people on here who’s years of useful and helpful insight you prefer to disrespect. As a recent newbie this forum has been a goldmine of useful information and help, with everyone else bending over backwards to help each other and have a bit of friendly banter - if that’s not what you like then why waste your time being here ……..

 

[Andy C Berks.]

Just realised there is an ignore button on here. Coincidentally just putting that out there ……..

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I have followed this thread from the start and have given some factual in put earlier in the thread, which a few members took personal.

I find in astonishing and bemusing that someone gets their bellows replaced because they are faulty.
Knowing:
1. Vw are not acknowledging there is a problem, therefore they have not redesigned the bellow and will not until they officially accept and recall these vehicles.
2. The new bellows will not be redesigned bellows, so they will leak again.
3. Like I said earlier in this thread, there will be a knock on affect of possible electrical problems, vehicle smelling, stained interiors etc etc.
4. We all know VW garages get paid for remedial warranty work, so they are more than happy to fit faulty bellows over and over again.
5. It won’t surprise me if every new bellow that is fitted in the future, by those who decide to get a faulty bellow fitted? Will have the tag missing, possibly removed at factory or by the garage fitting it, because it is the same faulty bellow!
Unless there is a recall by VW.

I have had two previous Cali,s and definitely a fan, that’s why ordered a
new one
However I will be waiting to see what VW decide to do rather than get messed about with potentially in affective warranty work.

I am not sure Vw will get this sorted, they are still selling these vehicles with the faulty bellows.
They haven’t sorted the leaking tailgate seal? The rust on the roof?
Bellows? Don’t hunk so sorry!

However I would be the first person to be relieved and over joyed if they do! So I can reorder my new Cali and enjoy everything it offers )

I find it astonishing some people are waiting for VW to acknowledge there is a problem…!

 

[Joncali2023!!]

I was only going by what you said, perhaps be a bit clearer next time ? You obviously make friends very easily, you only bought it a few weeks ago. Maybe go chat with them instead then rather than people on here who’s years of useful and helpful insight you prefer to disrespect. As a recent newbie this forum has been a goldmine of useful information and help, with everyone else bending over backwards to help each other and have a bit of friendly banter - if that’s not what you like then why waste your time being here ……..

Listen everyone’s jumping on my back giving me loads, so do you just expect me to sit back and take it?
I don’t have to be clearer next time, you just don’t need to read and interpret things in the incorrect way, trying to be smart.
I’ve been on loads of forums for years and years. Vw forums , camper forums this one seem to be full of stuck up , easily offended members.
I say things How it is..and people can click the ignore button anytime they wish.
Enjoy.

 

[HIGGINS]

Well said

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I find it astonishing some people are waiting for VW to acknowledge there is a problem…!

I don't think in the circumstances it would be unreasonable for VW to state something like "We are aware of multiple reports of problems with the new bellows..." rather than implying nothing has been reported.

You are in a better position because your dealer has been quite proactive about the issue.

I'm concerned our diagnosis might be ineffective and then what escalation route is there if VW themselves are playing ignorant of the problem.

Our strongest card would be to reject the vehicle within 30 days as it's not fit for purpose but we don't want to do that. We want the vehicle and the problem rectified. Doesn't have to be right away...

 

[HIGGINS]

If everyone who is in a position to reject? Reject!
Then VW, WILL DO SOME THING QUICKLY!

The Vw garages in the UK can only do so much, some more than others .
However the decisions are made higher up!

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Listen everyone’s jumping on my back giving me loads, so do you just expect me to sit back and take it?
I don’t have to be clearer next time, you just don’t need to read and interpret things in the incorrect way, trying to be smart.
I’ve been on loads of forums for years and years. Vw forums , camper forums this one seem to be full of stuck up , easily offended members.
I say things How it is..and people can click the ignore button anytime they wish.
Enjoy.

I have to agree largely. I have absolutely no idea why so many people seem to be so interested in your decision making or point of view. You’re a stranger to them and it’s simply not their business. I’m not sure why they think commenting on it is acceptable or even normal. It wouldn’t be in any other environment, but I guess that’s forums for you - it can bring out the worst in everyone. Better not to bite if you can help it, it only escalates things.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I don't think in the circumstances it would be unreasonable for VW to state something like "We are aware of multiple reports of problems with the new bellows..." rather than implying nothing has been reported.

You are in a better position because your dealer has been quite proactive about the issue.

I'm concerned our diagnosis might be ineffective and then what escalation route is there if VW themselves are playing ignorant of the problem.

Our strongest card would be to reject the vehicle within 30 days as it's not fit for purpose but we don't want to do that. We want the vehicle and the problem rectified. Doesn't have to be right away...

Yes you’re right, we are very fortunate to have bought through Breeze who seem to be all over this. Easy for me to say that really and perhaps a little unfair towards other members, so I apologise for that.

I think you’re right that it would be reasonable for VW to do that, but it’ll be the bean counters managing things. They’ll be interested purely in what this is going to cost them I suspect. Therefore I wouldn’t expect anything forthcoming soon. I think it needs a significant amount of pressure from owners to see this through for a suitable outcome.

 

[Corradobrit]

I find it astonishing some people are waiting for VW to acknowledge there is a problem…!

Not really. In most situations like this a class action lawsuit is filed and won before a manufacturer accepts there is an inherent issue with a product. For personal experience this included the cam follower in 2.0T Audi B7 engines and the Apples black screen of death. Only after the court case was lost did these companies provide an acknowledgement and a remedy to their customers.
The last thing a company like VW will do is voluntarily and publicly accept there is a design and manufacture defect.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Not really. In most situations like this a class action lawsuit is filed and won before a manufacturer accepts there is an inherent issue with a product. For personal experience this included the cam follower in 2.0T Audi B7 engines and the Apples black screen of death. Only after the court case was lost did these companies provide an acknowledgement and a remedy to their customers.
The last thing a company like VW will do is voluntarily and publicly accept there is a design and manufacture defect.

So you agree with me then?

 

[HIGGINS]

And me

 

[RockinNRollin]

I’m in the leaking bellows club now too. 03S 2023 Cali (dual fabric). Through the side zip despite previously surviving some wet weather a few weeks back.

 

[Corradobrit]

And me

But it doesn't mean VW are not working on a proper fix for the issue. The Multivan Cali will more than likely have the same bellows so they will want to know that is causing the bellows to leak and come up with a fix.

 

[Kayleigh]

I find in astonishing and bemusing that someone gets their bellows replaced because they are faulty.
Knowing:
1. Vw are not acknowledging there is a problem, therefore they have not redesigned the bellow and will not until they officially accept and recall these vehicles.
2. The new bellows will not be redesigned bellows, so they will leak again.
3. Like I said earlier in this thread, there will be a knock on affect of possible electrical problems, vehicle smelling, stained interiors etc etc.

I have to say I’m inclined to agree with these comments. Having a leaking 03S bellows replaced at this stage with another 03S seems pointless until VW state that the faults have been diagnosed and rectified.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

But it doesn't mean VW are not working on a proper fix for the issue. The Multivan Cali will more than likely have the same bellows so they will want to know that is causing the bellows to leak and come up with a fix.

Yes make sense. But there’ll be no public admission as long as they can help it.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I have to say I’m inclined to agree with these comments. Having a leaking 03S bellows replaced at this stage with another 03S seems pointless until VW state that the faults have been diagnosed and rectified.

In this sort of situation we’re probably all going to react a bit differently. It’s hard to know what to do for the best in the long run really. We now have new bellows so let’s see what happens. VW approved the warranty claim so surely this is a good thing as it’s another accepted case of a bellows issue by VW.

 

[Kayleigh]

Yes make sense. But there’ll be no public admission as long as they can help it.

You mean like dieselgate

 

[Kayleigh]

As a new Ocean owner I have performed my own bellows tests using a hose pipe and spray gun attached to a step ladder in front of the van. Spraying a fine mist at the bellows for 30 mins followed by letting it dry for an hour produced some interesting results after I had repeated it 3 times. The aim was to try and simulate typical UK rain showers. These are my observations:

1 - The fabric leaks at the base of the vertical seams and pano zip where they join rubber seal on the roof. There are also pinholes in the fabric at these points where the stitching has been stretched. These holes looked to contribute to the water ingress.

2 - There were signs of water ingress along the whole length of the fabric where it joins the rubber seal but much worse in the corners where it’s under higher tension.

3 - Drips form through both vertical seams and both vertical pano zips. There were no signs of leaks along the top edge of the pano zips.

4 - The bottom of the window was the first place to leak at the left hand corner (looking from inside). It dripped about every 3 seconds. As the lower window seam became saturated it dripped less in the corner but profusely along the length of the seam. Even after the hose was switched off, drips continued to form for another 10 minutes, showing just how saturated the fabric had become.

5 - The horizontal seam above the window had very similar symptoms to the lower one. It started dripping on the right hand end where the fabric is doubled over and then along the whole seam.

6 - It was difficult to detect any water ingress from the window zip itself as water from the horizontal seam above ran over it.

7 - Once saturated, the bellows fabric took hours to dry. I even used the diesel heater on max but ended up lowering the roof and keeping the hatch open overnight.

In summary, I think several factors contribute to water ingress:

- Fabric tension, especially at the bottom of the bellows and particularly in the corners.

- Fabric saturation. Once saturated water will ingress at a shocking rate and will continue to do so for a while after it’s stopped raining.

- Stitching. Definitely appears to be a factor. The horizontal seam above the window shows stitching ingress, but also signs of some fabric saturation.

- Needle size. This was mentioned by @Viktorgeorge earlier in the discussion, but looking at the small holes along the bottom edge of the bellows, this could be a factor during manufacture.

I may do some further tests next week if we have a nice dry day!

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

As a new Ocean owner I have performed my own bellows tests using a hose pipe and spray gun attached to a step ladder in front of the van. Spraying a fine mist at the bellows for 30 mins followed by letting it dry for an hour produced some interesting results after I had repeated it 3 times. The aim was to try and simulate typical UK rain showers. These are my observations:

1 - The fabric leaks at the base of the vertical seams and pano zip where they join rubber seal on the roof. There are also pinholes in the fabric at these points where the stitching has been stretched. These holes looked to contribute to the water ingress.

2 - There were signs of water ingress along the whole length of the fabric where it joins the rubber seal but much worse in the corners where it’s under higher tension.

3 - Drips form through both vertical seams and both vertical pano zips. There were no signs of leaks along the top edge of the pano zips.

4 - The bottom of the window was the first place to leak at the left hand corner (looking from inside). It dripped about every 3 seconds. As the lower window seam became saturated it dripped less in the corner but profusely along the length of the seam. Even after the hose was switched off, drips continued to form for another 10 minutes, showing just how saturated the fabric had become.

5 - The horizontal seam above the window had very similar symptoms to the lower one. It started dripping on the right hand end where the fabric is doubled over and then along the whole seam.

6 - It was difficult to detect any water ingress from the window zip itself as water from the horizontal seam above ran over it.

7 - Once saturated, the bellows fabric took hours to dry. I even used the diesel heater on max but ended up lowering the roof and keeping the hatch open overnight.

In summary, I think several factors contribute to water ingress:

- Fabric tension, especially at the bottom of the bellows and particularly in the corners.

- Fabric saturation. Once saturated water will ingress at a shocking rate and will continue to do so for a while after it’s stopped raining.

- Stitching. Definitely appears to be a factor. The horizontal seam above the window shows stitching ingress, but also signs of some fabric saturation.

- Needle size. This was mentioned by @Viktorgeorge earlier in the discussion, but looking at the small holes along then bottom edge of the bellows, this could be a factor during manufacture.

I may do some further tests next week if we have a nice dry day!

This matches my experience exactly. Fabric saturation resulting in water coming in through enlarged holes (due to high tension) in the fabric where it is stitched. On the old bellows I don’t believe the fabric became saturated in the first place and therefore even if it had the larger holes due to fabric stretch it wouldn’t necessarily result in water ingress. The fabric saturation seems to “feed” the stretched, enlarged holes with water.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

As a new Ocean owner I have performed my own bellows tests using a hose pipe and spray gun attached to a step ladder in front of the van. Spraying a fine mist at the bellows for 30 mins followed by letting it dry for an hour produced some interesting results after I had repeated it 3 times. The aim was to try and simulate typical UK rain showers. These are my observations:

1 - The fabric leaks at the base of the vertical seams and pano zip where they join rubber seal on the roof. There are also pinholes in the fabric at these points where the stitching has been stretched. These holes looked to contribute to the water ingress.

2 - There were signs of water ingress along the whole length of the fabric where it joins the rubber seal but much worse in the corners where it’s under higher tension.

3 - Drips form through both vertical seams and both vertical pano zips. There were no signs of leaks along the top edge of the pano zips.

4 - The bottom of the window was the first place to leak at the left hand corner (looking from inside). It dripped about every 3 seconds. As the lower window seam became saturated it dripped less in the corner but profusely along the length of the seam. Even after the hose was switched off, drips continued to form for another 10 minutes, showing just how saturated the fabric had become.

5 - The horizontal seam above the window had very similar symptoms to the lower one. It started dripping on the right hand end where the fabric is doubled over and then along the whole seam.

6 - It was difficult to detect any water ingress from the window zip itself as water from the horizontal seam above ran over it.

7 - Once saturated, the bellows fabric took hours to dry. I even used the diesel heater on max but ended up lowering the roof and keeping the hatch open overnight.

In summary, I think several factors contribute to water ingress:

- Fabric tension, especially at the bottom of the bellows and particularly in the corners.

- Fabric saturation. Once saturated water will ingress at a shocking rate and will continue to do so for a while after it’s stopped raining.

- Stitching. Definitely appears to be a factor. The horizontal seam above the window shows stitching ingress, but also signs of some fabric saturation.

- Needle size. This was mentioned by @Viktorgeorge earlier in the discussion, but looking at the small holes along the bottom edge of the bellows, this could be a factor during manufacture.

I may do some further tests next week if we have a nice dry day!

That's a very thorough test. Has your supplying dealer done their own diagnosis yet or have they accepted yours?

 

[Kayleigh]

That's a very thorough test. Has your supplying dealer done their own diagnosis yet or have they accepted yours?

I have advised them by email but the warranty manager is away until Monday, which is when I will be chasing the matter!

 

[Viktorgeorge]

As a new Ocean owner I have performed my own bellows tests using a hose pipe and spray gun attached to a step ladder in front of the van. Spraying a fine mist at the bellows for 30 mins followed by letting it dry for an hour produced some interesting results after I had repeated it 3 times. The aim was to try and simulate typical UK rain showers. These are my observations:

1 - The fabric leaks at the base of the vertical seams and pano zip where they join rubber seal on the roof. There are also pinholes in the fabric at these points where the stitching has been stretched. These holes looked to contribute to the water ingress.

2 - There were signs of water ingress along the whole length of the fabric where it joins the rubber seal but much worse in the corners where it’s under higher tension.

3 - Drips form through both vertical seams and both vertical pano zips. There were no signs of leaks along the top edge of the pano zips.

4 - The bottom of the window was the first place to leak at the left hand corner (looking from inside). It dripped about every 3 seconds. As the lower window seam became saturated it dripped less in the corner but profusely along the length of the seam. Even after the hose was switched off, drips continued to form for another 10 minutes, showing just how saturated the fabric had become.

5 - The horizontal seam above the window had very similar symptoms to the lower one. It started dripping on the right hand end where the fabric is doubled over and then along the whole seam.

6 - It was difficult to detect any water ingress from the window zip itself as water from the horizontal seam above ran over it.

7 - Once saturated, the bellows fabric took hours to dry. I even used the diesel heater on max but ended up lowering the roof and keeping the hatch open overnight.

In summary, I think several factors contribute to water ingress:

- Fabric tension, especially at the bottom of the bellows and particularly in the corners.

- Fabric saturation. Once saturated water will ingress at a shocking rate and will continue to do so for a while after it’s stopped raining.

- Stitching. Definitely appears to be a factor. The horizontal seam above the window shows stitching ingress, but also signs of some fabric saturation.

- Needle size. This was mentioned by @Viktorgeorge earlier in the discussion, but looking at the small holes along the bottom edge of the bellows, this could be a factor during manufacture.

I may do some further tests next week if we have a nice dry day!

That is very thorough. The factor that is coming out more and more is the saturation point, extending the potential for leaks. When writing about needle size, or perhaps more accurately needle type, I had not absorbed (sorry!) that point.

So I should qualify my contribution (reposted below): I think the problem might not be just wrong needle but a catalysis of that with the wrong fabric - unless that can be treated to stop saturation.

Post in thread 'Does your T6.1 double skinned Bellows leak?'
https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/does-your-t6-1-double-skinned-bellows-leak.50555/post-652906