60k sledge..

[Wycoller]

As others have said it’s important to distinguish between going up a hill and coming down.

We live at the top of a steep track in the pennines and have thirty years experience of getting up and down in bad weather. If very bad we leave the cars a the bottom, over the years this has included a discovery, freelanders, yeti and now the Cali.

Getting up 4wd is a massive help, winter tyres improve things even more. Going down it’s winter tyres and hill descent control. You need to keep your feet off brake and accelerator, so 4wd isn’t relevant. If you slide then a touch on the accelerator might help, touch the brake and you will be in the ditch.

I had normal tyres on one car and it slid away from me on ice, twice. Soon forked out for winter tyres even though I had to pay for them on a company car.

The Cali is 4wd, hill descent control and winter tyres. If very icy then I fit snow socks, the shop sells them. Where we live there isn’t normally enough snow to warrant snow chains, no sooner have you fitted them then you need t take them off again. Snow socks are fantastic.

 

[GrannyJen]

Hey jen if you was assured your new van had m&s’s on can you not go back and STAMP your feet!!!!!! after all why should you buy new tyres when you was told you already had them??? that was part of the deal you wanted

It comes down to the deal that was struck, a pre-reg, price haggled over, a sales person that did not have a clue and a customer that just wanted to get away in her brand mew Cali and get it sorted for her own use.

I can live with it, but this is the last time that I will buy a pre-reg for the convenience.

At leas it has a diff-lock

 

[GrannyJen]

As others have said it’s important to distinguish between going up a hill and coming down.

We live at the top of a steep track in the pennines and have thirty years experience of getting up and down in bad weather. If very bad we leave the cars a the bottom, over the years this has included a discovery, freelanders, yeti and now the Cali.

Getting up 4wd is a massive help, winter tyres improve things even more. Going down it’s winter tyres and hill descent control. You need to keep your feet off brake and accelerator, so 4wd isn’t relevant. If you slide then a touch on the accelerator might help, touch the brake and you will be in the ditch.

I had normal tyres on one car and it slid away from me on ice, twice. Soon forked out for winter tyres even though I had to pay for them on a company car.

The Cali is 4wd, hill descent control and winter tyres. If very icy then I fit snow socks, the shop sells them. Where we live there isn’t normally enough snow to warrant snow chains, no sooner have you fitted them then you need t take them off again. Snow socks are fantastic.

Agree with snow socks: So easily fitted and so small in the boot. A no-brainer.

 

[thehorse]

I actually think 4wd is more dangerous in the snow as it gives a false sense of security (to some people). 4wd gives a helping hand getting you moving, but when it comes to stopping you are no better off than a 2wd car which also has 4 wheel braking.

I ordered the all weather tyre option with mine which have been really good in the recent snow. I was driving through 6 inches of snow on a large industrial with no issues where there were several cars completely stuck

 

[Tommy Gun]

We regularly see sub-zero temps during winter, so for me it makes complete sense to have a separate set of winter wheels/tyres for all our vehicles. There are advantages at 7 degrees C and below with winter rubber.

In my own experience, with the summer tyres fitted, & on the subject of traction, 4wd is always going to be better in the snow than a 2wd. No brainer.
2wd with 4 snow tyres is better than 4wd with standard tyres in pretty much all situations, i.e accelerating, braking, steering, twitchy rear end in corners.
4wd with snow tyres is king. You can accelerate faster & get up steeper snowy hills compared to 2wd on winters. Otherwise it’s the same.

Just 2 days back from the wonderful Isle Of Skye - see above pic, with a reasonable amount of snow. Our 4motion Cali fitted with Dunlop Winter Sport 5 XL SUV tyres mounted on steelies performed superbly. I had the opportunity to play with the van in the snow both on & slightly off road. For a big old heavy bus, it was pretty damn excellent. The difference between the standard tyres & a set of winters (in the snow) is night & day.

Why are people comparing a California to a car or competent off-roader in the snow? Apples & oranges? It is a comercial vehicle, originally designed to carry cargo. If you’re expecting the same performance - best leave it on the drive.

 

[kave]

If you where going downhill 2wd or 4wd makes NO difference. I guess the Disco, with same tires could have been even worse or similar in this case.
On your 60k sled, dont cheap out, use winter tires for winter and summer tires for summer. They are completely different and the winter tirer is much better on ice and snow as the summer tire is better in warmer temperatures.

 

[Harrythecat]

For me decent quality winter tyres are a must. They virtually pay for themselves. Only additional cost is either changing and tracking/balancing or a second set of wheels.

We’ve got a modest 30 plus k on our 2wd Cali. And there’s still plenty of tread on the winters. I prefer Vreiderstein which I’ve used for years on all our vehicles but other makes are available!

 

[Victor]

We only run summer tyres now, life is too short to keep two sets of wheels and changing twice per year. I can understand people who live up North doing this but for anyone south of the Midlands it's just plain daft!

If it snowy or ice outside I just stay at home or use our old runaround like I have done for the past 40 years and never had a problem.

We live in the UK for God's sake, not Iceland.

 

[Roger Boeken]

Ah yes the Alvis CVR(T) series. They had a Jag engine and could do 50mph which isn't bad for a small tank. And they had rubber track pads so they didn't rip up the tarmac.

One winter when I was in Germany with the (British) Army it was reported that the German government was forbidding de-icing salt, on environmental grounds. I'm not sure if that was actually true but it certainly could get pretty icy. I do remember seeing an otherwise stationary Land Rover ahead of me in a convoy line slide gracefully off crabwise into a ditch (assuming crabs can be graceful) just because of the road camber.

It still is a fact that in large areas of germany salt is not used for de-cing for environmental reasons , sometimes they use stone chippings instead.

 

[Roger Boeken]

We only run summer tyres now, life is too short to keep two sets of wheels and changing twice per year. I can understand people who live up North doing this but for anyone south of the Midlands it's just plain daft!
If it snowy or ice outside I just stay at home or use our old runaround like I have done for the past 40 years and never had a problem.
We live in the UK for God's sake, not Iceland.

That is why 4season or all weather tires are becoming more popular .
On the other hand I understand what you mean : 30 years ago I was on the road all year for my job and did not have 4motion, no winter tires, not even power steering but managed to get everywhere and park the car without parking sensors or rear view camera.. the good old days they call it I believe.

 

[Rednalong]

Without winter tyres 4WD is 4W slide and likey dangerous as moving is easier than stopping.
Were staying a few kms up the road from Chamonix with around a metre of snow. Getting up the hill from town in our fully laden 2WD Cali was no worse and perhaps better than a few other cars with winters. Did slide a bit getting going again on the steepest bit when the car in front lost traction forcing us to stop but managed without chains. Would definitely have liked 4WD but could aways fit chains if required. Road had a good 3 inches of polished snow and ice. I think the GB Range Rover with chains fitted in the lift car park says everything about tyre selection up here.

 

[Roger Boeken]

I actually think 4wd is more dangerous in the snow as it gives a false sense of security (to some people). 4wd gives a helping hand getting you moving, but when it comes to stopping you are no better off than a 2wd car which also has 4 wheel braking.

I ordered the all weather tyre option with mine which have been really good in the recent snow. I was driving through 6 inches of snow on a large industrial with no issues where there were several cars completely stuck

I only partially agree . 4WD car is also motor breaking on all 4 wheels , on top of that I also have the hill descent control. But it is a fact 4wd (I prefer 4motion, what is not just 4x4) does not help a lot going downhill ,it is the tires that contribute most. However getting grip flat, up hill and while cornering in all weather/road conditions is where 4motion is about. The false sense of safety you mention can be applied to many comfort and performance adding features , even safety belts and airbags .. some people tend to think they become invulnerable in their expensive high tech car ..

 

[Adamvanman]

This type of thread appears every year and makes me laugh, especially the soft southerners who put their winter tyres on as soon as the first frost appears on the forecast.

I have survived with normal tyres and 2WD for all of my life and so did my father who grew up in Aberdeenshire, back in the 1970's and we all survived without winter tyres. It was unheard of changing wheels and there certainly was not more accidents in those days.

As above I get it if you live in the Highlands but I have seen people post on here that live in Surrey that change their tyres over in November.

Nowt as queer as folk as they say.

 

[GrannyJen]

This type of thread appears every year and makes me laugh, especially the soft southerners who put their winter tyres on as soon as the first frost appears on the forecast.

I have survived with normal tyres and 2WD for all of my life and so did my father who grew up in Aberdeenshire, back in the 1970's and we all survived without winter tyres. It was unheard of changing wheels and there certainly was not more accidents in those days.

As above I get it if you live in the Highlands but I have seen people post on here that live in Surrey that change their tyres over in November.

Nowt as queer as folk as they say.

Unless those people living in Surrey are planning on going to the Highlands, and driving across Germany, and popping over to the Alps for Winter.

I would have looked bloody silly in 2015 being stuck on Skye for no reason other than deep snow and Summer tyres, or being pulled over by the Polizei for not having a snowflake symbol on my tyres.

Where you live is often secondary to what you use the vehicle for and if 365 days mobility is called for across continent and north or south of whatever geo-social divide you may dream up then having the appropriate tyres is just plain common sense.

 

[B J G]

This type of thread appears every year and makes me laugh, especially the soft southerners who put their winter tyres on as soon as the first frost appears on the forecast.

I have survived with normal tyres and 2WD for all of my life and so did my father who grew up in Aberdeenshire, back in the 1970's and we all survived without winter tyres. It was unheard of changing wheels and there certainly was not more accidents in those days.

As above I get it if you live in the Highlands but I have seen people post on here that live in Surrey that change their tyres over in November.

Nowt as queer as folk as they say.

No such thing as pure summer tyres back in the 70's. Tyres like Goodyear G8's would be classed as all weather now but were normal back then and late 60's. I do recall many fitting Mud and Snow treaded tyres during winter but we seemed to have snow and blizzards every year then. Yes even chains were used.
Only the advent of Manufacturers trying to get low emission figures has led to 'summer' tyres which due to their low rolling resistance and obviously grip of the surface means there is a need for winter treads.

Biggest problem in the South is the volume of traffic and how quickly the snow comes and goes giving no time to get proficient at driving in it. The roads, other than main routes are often narrower, more undulating and bendy than in Aberdeenshire. There is also the mindless 4x4 brigade who seem to believe that the 4x4 badge gives immunity from the basic laws of friction and motion to contend with.
I originate from Aberdeenshire and even experienced not going to school for 3 months due to being blocked in by snow and have opened the front door to a wall of snow on more than one occasion.

 

[alter]

I really like this discussion ...... if I can steal a little of your time I'll tell you ..... about 50 years back, my father took me like every Christmas to ski in the Alps .. he mounted on the car ( fiat 500 country) winter tires of that time .. they looked like tires for a tractor ... arrived in Cortina my father took a wrong road .... we realized that it was not a road but we were climbing to the ski slope! ! ....... without traction controls, 4x4 etc ..... the 500 went everywhere because it weighed only 700 kg ..... my Grand Cherokee weighs 2500 kg and downhill on the snow is terrifying! !

 

[GrannyJen]

I really like this discussion ...... if I can steal a little of your time I'll tell you ..... about 50 years back, my father took me like every Christmas to ski in the Alps .. he mounted on the car ( fiat 500 country) winter tires of that time .. they looked like tires for a tractor ... arrived in Cortina my father took a wrong road .... we realized that it was not a road but we were climbing to the ski slope! ! ....... without traction controls, 4x4 etc ..... the 500 went everywhere because it weighed only 700 kg ..... my Grand Cherokee weighs 2500 kg and downhill on the snow is terrifying! !

I fondly remember the days when mud and snow tyres were big knobbly cross-country's that could climb anything

 

[B J G]

I really like this discussion ...... if I can steal a little of your time I'll tell you ..... about 50 years back, my father took me like every Christmas to ski in the Alps .. he mounted on the car ( fiat 500 country) winter tires of that time .. they looked like tires for a tractor ... arrived in Cortina my father took a wrong road .... we realized that it was not a road but we were climbing to the ski slope! ! ....... without traction controls, 4x4 etc ..... the 500 went everywhere because it weighed only 700 kg ..... my Grand Cherokee weighs 2500 kg and downhill on the snow is terrifying! !

Great picture you've created.

 

[RodCouncil]

We only run summer tyres now, life is too short to keep two sets of wheels and changing twice per year. I can understand people who live up North doing this but for anyone south of the Midlands it's just plain daft!

If it snowy or ice outside I just stay at home or use our old runaround like I have done for the past 40 years and never had a problem.

We live in the UK for God's sake, not Iceland.

It's a 20 min job to change, max. I'd rather have grip and be safe, even in the grim midlands it gets cold

 

[Ross Theobald]

living in Northumberland I decided to buy the 4 motion as I thought the 4WD would cope with the climate up here better. After a splattering of snow this morning I drove back home and down our little lane. This is where all the fun began.. I crept over the brow and then proceeded to slide down with no control whatsoever. As I watched the stone wall get closer and closer I started to think about the damage I was going to cause to my lovely van. It all happened in super slow motion. Luckily I got a bit of traction at the bottom and I was able to steer clear avoiding the wall.
T6 Ocean with 4motion marks out of 10, I'd give it a big fat zero. I noticed very little difference in performance today compared to a normal front wheel drive vehicle.

Maybe my expectations are too high and I should only expect to be able to get out of a moderately muddy field.

I know it's a totally different vehicle but my Discovery would have had that for breakfast..

Cheers,

Rob

I also live in Northumberland and have recently purchased Cali (Have had a T5 Sportline camper ‘2 wheel drive’ for the last 5 years).
I’ve driven in some pretty snowy conditions with the 2WD van without much hassle but have always run mud and snow tyres on steel rims in the winter - doubles as saving the alloys from the salty conditions.
4 motion will do very little for you in snow if running standard tyres (Same point goes for my Audi Q5, especially on descents)
I would suggest getting a set of steel rims with winter tyres or just swapping tyres for the winter driving months which should help you out.
Also if you’re running DSG, run in manual mode so you can use the engine to help slow you on decents.

 

[Esandar#1]

This short video shows the importance of tyres over 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive

Very interesting video! Our friend did several ski seasons in Europe and over the years drove a number of different vehicles to 'resort' including a old MGB GT! He swears by winter tyres and the 'Snowman building' explanation (that nothing grips snow like snow) goes some way to explain why and how winter tyres are so much better.

We bought our Cali with winter tyres as part of the spec as we'd planned to drive to Europe for a ski holiday. They may cost a little more but so far have been very good and whilst I had planned to buys some 18" alloys with summer tyres, I've not actually bothered yet. In fact, a dealer I asked about this said it would be a purely asthetic decision, so we stick with what we ordered which saves on having to change wheels (or tyres) each winter / summer season.

The added bonus of reading this thread is that I'm now going to take my boys for a snowboarding lesson at Tamworth!!!

 

[andyinluton]

whilst I had planned to buys some 18" alloys with summer tyres, I've not actually bothered yet. In fact, a dealer I asked about this said it would be a purely asthetic decision, so we stick with what we ordered which saves on having to change wheels (or tyres) each winter / summer season.

Depending upon your mileage that could be a false economy, the softer winter rubber tends to wear a lot quicker in higher temperatures than ordinary tyres.

To be legal in some european countries e.g. Austria the minimum tread depth is 4mm.

In 12 months driving using just Winters I could easily get down to 4mm, by alternating winter / ordinary tyres I should be able to get at least 4 winters out of the winters and 3 summers out of the ordinary tyres.

 

[Esandar#1]

Depending upon your mileage that could be a false economy, the softer winter rubber tends to wear a lot quicker in higher temperatures than ordinary tyres.

To be legal in some european countries e.g. Austria the minimum tread depth is 4mm.

In 12 months driving using just Winters I could easily get down to 4mm, by alternating winter / ordinary tyres I should be able to get at least 4 winters out of the winters and 3 summers out of the ordinary tyres.

Yes, you are probably right about getting extra wear by switching tyres set. I guess it just depends on mileage and the value one assigns to not having to switch tyres, store the spare tyres / wheels etc. I'll definitely check the tread levels on the winter tyres before we head of to Austria in March... and have a practice fit of the snow chains!

 

[andyinluton]

This winter you will be fine, its just if they are down to 4mm by the end of summer they are then no good as winter tyres for the following season would need replacing early.
Whereas If they are at 4mm at the end of winter I would carry on using them into the summer just to get a bit more use out of them.

 

[Tompoole]

If it’s ice in snow and you are going down hill 4 wheel drive ain’t much help , you need low range mate or 1st gear and let the engine slow the car..... the 4 wheel drive bit only gives you traction to move not slow down .