A bientôt EU

[Amarillo]

If it is a decent oversubscribed school they will be investigating almost anyone who applies, often very compact catchment areas results in people using relatives address or renting for short term to gain access.
I am sure they are just nonplussed by your unusual circumstances and will be reasonable in the end.

This was a common reception class application where we listed 6 schools in order of preference. Our road is in three distinct London boroughs: Bromley, Greenwich and Lewisham. All our school choices were local and either in Bromley or Lewisham, so it hardly effects our home borough of Greenwich.

I think that this woman has simply lost face by being wrong, and instead of manning up to her mistake is making life awkward for us.


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[T6 CFO]

This was a common reception class application where we listed 6 schools in order of preference. Our road is in three distinct London boroughs: Bromley, Greenwich and Lewisham. All our school choices were local and either in Bromley or Lewisham, so it hardly effects our home borough of Greenwich.

I think that this woman has simply lost face by being wrong, and instead of manning up to her mistake is making life awkward for us.


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Yep! I think you’ve hit the nail on the head Tom.

You need if possible to give her a face saving solution or go around her.

Very frustrating.


Mike

 

[Amarillo]

You need if possible to give her a face saving solution or go around her.

There has been a further bizarre development today.

We own a flat in Lewisham, just behind our preferred school for Ben. The flat is just 1/2 mile from our home. Our tenant broke the tenancy contract early, with our blessing, so we became liable for the council tax.

As an emergency back up we applied for our favoured school from that address, hoping to withdraw our Lewisham application once our Greenwich application had been accepted.

Today we received a phone call from Lewisham. They had spotted two applications for Ben for the same Lewisham school from two different addresses.

I fully explained the situation, holding nothing back. "Don't worry" said the wonder woman. "We have all the information we require to accept your application for Ben from the Lewisham address. When you move back to your Greenwich address just let us know. Both addresses are in the school's catchment area. Would you like me to send you an email to confirm this?"

So, the borough which contains our home won't accept a school application for Ben; the borough that we do not consider home and where we do not live will.



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[andyinluton]

the borough that we do not consider home and where we do not live will.

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But surely as far as they are concerned that is where you do live. Its where you are paying council tax for. You can't be living in your main house as someone else is.

You may want to take advice re capital gains tax if your flat has effectively become your main residence? it could make a big difference to your liability if you ever sold the flat.

 

[Amarillo]

But surely as far as they are concerned that is where you do live. Its where you are paying council tax for. You can't be living in your main house as someone else is.

Greenwich Council interpret the statutory code on this matter to be "the child's principal home". Lewisham Council interpret the code on the same matter as "where the child normally resides". The code itself is vague, referring to the child's "home local authority". There is no requirement for the child or legal guardian to be living there at the time that the application is made.

My question to Greenwich Council was, "If our family home is not Ben's principal home address, where is his principal home address?"

Lewisham don't care where Ben "normally resides" so long as we pay the council tax at the address where we make the application.

You may want to take advice re capital gains tax if your flat has effectively become your main residence? it could make a big difference to your liability if you ever sold the flat.

Nice idea!



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[BerndRos]

Greenwich Council interpret the statutory code on this matter to be "the child's principal home". Lewisham Council interpret the code on the same matter as "where the child normally resides". The code itself is vague, referring to the child's "home local authority". There is no requirement for the child or legal guardian to be living there at the time that the application is made.

My question to Greenwich Council was, "If our family home is not Ben's principal home address, where is his principal home address?"

Lewisham don't care where Ben "normally resides" so long as we pay the council tax at the address where we make the application.


Nice idea!



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Only in the UK....!!

Read on BBC website that Germany is the worst breaker of EU rules, UK is at the other end of the graph. Seems in the UK we take petty rules & regs to the extreme. Yawn.

 

[T6 CFO]

Here’s the link in the Express

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/916130/germany-top-breaker-eu-rules/amp


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[bigmac77]

Thought they were mad for rules in Germany? You can’t wash your car at home or mow your lawn on a Sunday. Anyway we digress.

Tom you could book a return Euro shuttle ticket the dates can be changed easily online for little or no cost depending on the day of travel. Please note this applies to bookings made online if you book with Tesco club card points over the phone then alterations also have to be made over the phone which is a bit more of a pain in the proverbial.

 

[Amarillo]

Tom you could book a return Euro shuttle ticket the dates can be changed easily online for little or no cost depending on the day of travel. Please note this applies to bookings made online if you book with Tesco club card points over the phone then alterations also have to be made over the phone which is a bit more of a pain in the proverbial.

I had already emailed the admissions manager with an offer to make the ferry reservation now. Here is her reply:

Dear Mr Crispin

Thank you for coming back to me.

Evidence of your return journey will potentially confirm the intention to return to the country. But we need to be able to confirm the Greenwich address that you will be returning to. At present the tenancy agreement could be renewed or allowed to roll on. It is because of this that we can’t on balance consider it your principle address. What have the tenants and letting agency understood from your plans, can be put in writing?

Best regards

What she seems to misunderstand is the difference between "evidence on the balance of probabilities" and "proof beyond reasonable doubt".

This has been a tortuous process, and I really cannot believe that our situation is unique. I can think of two other situations where a child might not be living at their "principal home address" for an extended period of time: long term hospital care and during refurbishment work.

For the most senior admissions manager in a local council to persistently feed me with fake school admission regulations is ridiculous.


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[andyinluton]

This has been a tortuous process, and I really cannot believe that our situation is unique. I can think of two other situations where a child might not be living at their "principal home address" for an extended period of time: long term hospital care and during refurbishment work.

Sorry I have to disagree, in both those situations the house would not have been let out to become someone elses principle home address.

Your tenants would have the right to claim school places for their children based on where they are currently living. Whilst your house is let out, it isn't yours, you are just the landlord, & you shouldn't be able to use it to obtain preferential treatment for school placement.

On the other hand, your vacant flat which you are now paying council tax on I would view as your principle home address. Put another way, if you had to come home tommorow as an emergency for some reason which house would you stay in.

 

[WelshGas]

I presume all this could have been avoided if the House rent had been increased to include Council Tax and you had continued paying it to Greenwich yourself.
At least you have a residency property which has been accepted by Lewisham and a school place even if it isn't your preferred option.

 

[Amarillo]

Sorry I have to disagree, in both those situations the house would not have been let out to become someone elses principle home address.

In the case of a long-term illness, it is quite possible a family would let it out to afford to be close to their sick child.

Your tenants would have the right to claim school places for their children based on where they are currently living. Whilst your house is let out, it isn't yours, you are just the landlord, & you shouldn't be able to use it to obtain preferential treatment for school placement.

We are not seeking preferential treatment, simply fair treatment. It is the only home Benjamin has lived in, and the home he will return to. It is perfectly possible for two children from two different families to have the same principal home address.

On the other hand, your vacant flat which you are now paying council tax on I would view as your principle home address. Put another way, if you had to come home tommorow as an emergency for some reason which house would you stay in.

My parents' second home in Emsworth. This was discussed and agreed with my parents before we went away. When Clare's father recently fell and broke his hip we seriously discussed driving back from Sicily and basing ourselves there for a while.



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[Amarillo]

I presume all this could have been avoided if the House rent had been increased to include Council Tax and you had continued paying it to Greenwich yourself.
At least you have a residency property which has been accepted by Lewisham and a school place even if it isn't your preferred option.

The school place won't be confirmed until 15 April (?), but our flat is right next door to the school - which is our preferred choice - and as it has 90 reception class places, being offered a place at that address is assured. Our home is 1/2 mile from the same school, and being offered a place from that address is probably about 95% certain.

What I feel uncomfortable about is that making an application from an address we do not consider to be home feels fraudulent.

On your first point, this is wrong. The "principal home address" is not defined by who pays the council tax.


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[WelshGas]

On your first point, this is wrong. The "principal home address" is not defined by who pays the council tax.


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So what is it defined by? You are the Property Owner according to the Land Registry, I presume?
You are on the Electoral Roll at that address, I presume?

But you are not paying the Council Tax for that property, nor paying any other utility bills for that property, I presume?

So what do they consider as proof?

Regarding the other property I presume ALL the above hold true BUT you are also paying Council Tax and Utilities?

I therefore presumed that the ONLY information the 2 councils hold is who pays the Council Tax on each property, which in your case is different for each property, and information from the Electoral Roll.

The Councils wouldn't have access to Utility payment details.

Definition to HMRC of principal residency for Capital Gains tax etc: is different and once again I doubt if the Councils can get that information easily.

 

[Amarillo]

Your tenants would have the right to claim school places for their children based on where they are currently living.

Yes they would, however, the most significant date for school admissions is not the home address at the date of application, but the home address on 1 September. As they would be moving before 1 September, they would have to inform the local authority of their move, and if the school was oversubscribed they would need to be placed somewhere on the waiting list - this might be to the top of the list as theirs would be a priority application.

This is possibly where Greenwich admissions misinterpreted the school admissions code. They gave a higher priority to the address at time of application than the address on 1 September 2018. This was the point I made in my email to them asking them to seek the opinion of the borough lawyers:

The borough has no lawful authority to refuse an application on the grounds that Benjamin is out of the country at the time the application is made.

If at the time the place is taken up, Benjamin is not actually living at the address given, the Borough can lawfully withdraw the offer.

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[Kmann]

Indeed - I would really burn into her for her incompetence in misinterpreting the statutory schools admissions code, when I as a layman could see no reason why Ben should be excluded simply because we are travelling overseas, but I still need her to review her decision.

Two weeks ago she asked me for a copy of the tenancy agreement on our home, proof that the house is ours and proof of our return to the UK.

I immediately sent her an electronic copy of the tenancy agreement, a copy of our latest mortgage statement which my father brought out to me at Christmas, and explained that our return Eurotunnel ticket had not been bought as we might return a day or two early and stay with relatives.

The basis of her thinking we are more likely than not lying appears to be that I had originally said the tenancy ends on 12 June. I was wrong, the tenancy agreement shows the tenancy to be from 16 June 2017 to 15 June 2018.

None of this appears relevant anyway. What matters is Ben's "Principal home address", and if that is not our home in Greenwich, where is it?

And besides all that, why the hell does she think we are so keen to secure a place at a local school to our home address if we are not going to be living there?


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There is no emoji for that - but how annoying it must be wasting your time and energy on that. Hope all will get in place in right time … Btw. Did you tell her you are going to the Meet in Denmark ;-)

 

[Amarillo]

Day 224 & 225 – Vartholomio

The next stage of our trip around Europe has begun- exploring the Balkans. Much is off limits for us, being outside the pet travel scheme, so our route from Greece will take us north along Bulgaria's Black Sea coast, into Romania and northwest to southern Hungary, southwards again in Croatia before making a U-turn to head north again along the Adriatic Coast. This will take us to the beginning of May.


As soon as we docked in Igoumenitsa we had a warm feeling about Greece. Despite appalling weather over the last 24 hours, the warm feeling has continued. English is more widely spoken than in Italy, France, Portugal and Spain and the people we have met have been genuinely welcoming. Reading signs in the Greek script is proving difficult - I couldn't recognise the toilet door in Lidl when Ben needed a pee, and I still don't know if we used the men's or women's cubicle. At least in China they use unambiguous pictures to aid confused foreigners.

Once again we have had fun with the electric hookup. Instead of using the usual external power socket they use on this campsite the European socket. When we started hooking up in San Marino, as well as a hook-up lead, I bought an adaptor for large Italian 3 pin to external. That doesn't work in a European socket. The only adaptor we have for the European socket is to an English socket. So, with the various adaptors and leads we have, this is how we have hooked up the van to the electricity supply:

1. European to UK adaptor
2. UK to small Italian extension lead
3. Small Italian to large Italian extension lead
4. Large Italian to external adaptor
5. External hookup extension lead

We are only using the hookup to charge a laptop and toothbrushes!


We have had another bizarre twist in the saga over our application for a reception class place for Ben. On Friday we had a phone call from Lewisham school admissions. They have two applications for Ben for the same school, one with the address of our flat in Lewisham next to the school on which we pay council tax, and one from our home 1/2 mile down the road in Greenwich where our tenants pay the council tax. I explained the situation to Lewisham admissions fully, adding that wherever Benjamin's "principal home address" is, it cannot possibly be our campsite in Greece, or any other place where we have camped throughout Europe. Greenwich have so far denied that our home is our home as we have tenants, and we don't think our home is our flat as we have never lived there and have no intention of ever doing so. However, we made the application using our flat's address just in case Greenwich were right and our home in Greenwich is not Benjamin's "principal home address". Lewisham' view is that if we pay the council tax it is our home.

So, in summary, Lewisham consider our home to be a place that we do not consider to be our home. Greenwich do not consider the place we consider home to be our home.

The difficulty with accepting Lewisham's view is that when we return to our home in Greenwich in June we will need to inform Lewisham that we are no longer "living" at the address on the application and lose any school place and have to re-apply as an in-year admission and hope they give us the place we have just made available.

To be continued...


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[kave]

Are you planning any visits to the greece islands? When I was there last time the islands where much cheaper and welcoming than the main land arround Athens.
I recommend parking the van for a week or two and travel by ferry to a number of islands, for example the paros naxos ios etc. When arriving to a new island by ferry you usually meet people who represent hotels and you can arrange a deal there.

 

[Amarillo]

Are you planning any visits to the greece islands? When I was there last time the islands where much cheaper and welcoming than the main land arround Athens.
I recommend parking the van for a week or two and travel by ferry to a number of islands, for example the paros naxos ios etc. When arriving to a new island by ferry you usually meet people who represent hotels and you can arrange a deal there.

Clare and I island hopped as boyfriend and girlfriend 27 years ago. When we came back to England we were so fed up with one another that we didn't speak for nearly 20 years. It wasn't until 7 years ago that Clare got in touch again, and it was only because I couldn't work out who was phoning me that I didn't hang up!


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[Amarillo]

Day 226 & 227 - Vartholomio

It has been a wet few days, and the best place to be when camping in the wet is inside somewhere other than the campsite. We have had two evening meals out at a nice but empty restaurant where we were the only customers, and only one item was on the menu. Rabbit stew one night, boiled lamb the next (the boys had a bowl of spaghetti, then grilled chicken). Four courses, starter, salad, main and pudding, with wine - €15 adults, €5 children. Perfect!

I was released for a couple of hours on Sunday and walked along the beach with Meg. I stumbled upon a washed up turtle outside a wooden beach shack.

A sad and grim find, but all creatures die sometime. Today we managed to get out on our bikes and we all rode along the road towards the village. I noticed a little track leading down towards the shack, we followed it so I could show the boys the turtle. Someone had put a rope around its neck and had dragged it away from the shack.

You can actually see the track where it had been dragged in the top photo.

It has left me wondering what someone wants with a dead turtle. I suppose its shell might have some value to someone.

The Beach is turning out to be an excellent playground for Ben and Jack. There is a stream at one end and they both love playing in it, and building bridges and dams with washed up rubbish.

The saga over our school place for Ben might finally be over. It seems that both Lewisham and Greenwich school admissions have put their heads together and concluded that our recently vacated flat next to our preferred choice of school for Ben is our home address, and our home 1/2 mile away from the school is not our home address. I'm convinced they have misdirected themselves on the School's Admissions Code, but as we have inadvertently gained an advantage in securing a place for both Ben and, under the sibling rule, for Jack at our preferred school we cannot really complain. We have also been informed that once a place is offered, it cannot be withdrawn unless a deliberately misleading or fraudulent application was made. In her customary snide style, the Greenwich admissions manager prefaced this information with "as you are aware". Why would I be aware of that!? We have gone to huge lengths attempting to correct Greenwich admissions on their interpretation of Ben's home. Chips and shoulders spring to mind.


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[bvddobb]

The difficulty with accepting Lewisham's view is that when we return to our home in Greenwich in June we will need to inform Lewisham that we are no longer "living" at the address on the application and lose any school place and have to re-apply as an in-year admission and hope they give us the place we have just made available.

Just don't tell anyone until Ben is in school for a week, and then 'announce' your moving to your Greenwich address. Then, for the bureaucrats, everything is OK! Their records are in order, hurrah!

 

[Amarillo]

It has been a wet and blustery three days. The best place to be when it is raining is inside the van, our driveaway awning has a couple of leaks and now I have discovered a hole in the wind out awning - pine needles or something must have got caught on the top and wound into the awning piercing it.

So on Tuesday we drove due east towards a reservoir to see what we could see, and that included beautiful looking snow capped mountains in the distance. I think they must have been the Erymanthos range. We did not go that far, instead driving around the reservoir and getting a feel for non touristy parts of the Peloponnesus.

On the way home we stopped for dinner in a small town. Eating out in Greece appears to be 2/3 the price of Italy. We paid 35 Euros for the four of us. The restaurant was empty, and the owner/waiter/chef had to phone a friend to buy the ingredients for our meal - which was very basic grilled meat and salad. The boys loved the open fire.

On Wednesday we stayed on the campsite, and although very blustery Ben and Jack could play on the beach. A lovely river complete with tributary had formed over the sand which the boys played in wearing their wet suits. Every so often a particularly large wave would send a bore up the river and up the beach to the ditch separating the beach and farmland.

Thurday was another very wet day, and we went in search of thermal springs. The waters were warm and smelly, but not hot like the springs on Sicily. We then went on to a hilltop castle where the curators fell in love with Ben and Jack.

The castle guards the port below which we visited next to watch the large ferries connecting the Ionian islands with the mainland dock.

Ben's school admission saga has raised its ugly head once again. Apparently the Admissions Manager for Greenwich, who decided that Ben's home address is not in Greenwich, has phoned the Admissions Manager in Lewisham to say that she does not think we live there either. Quite what she is hoping to achieve by making that phone call is unclear, but the result has been an email from the Lewisham Admissions Manager now asking for confirmation that we will be living at the Lewisham address when we return to the UK. I have emailed a reply that Lewisham and Greenwich need to decide between them were Ben's principal home address is: our house in Greenwich which we consider home but don't pay the council tax; our flat in Lewisham which we don't consider home but do pay the council tax; or wherever we happen to be camping. Once they have decided they should progress the appropriate application.

It really should not make any difference whatever they decide - both our house and flat are in the catchement area of the same primary school with 90 reception class places. I would find it hard to believe that there are 90 children of Ben's age living within 1/2 mile of the school which is its distance from our house.

The absurd and real danger now will be that Greenwich will conclude that we live in Lewisham and Lewisham will conclude that we live in Greenwich, both will tear up our application forms, we will have to make an in-year school application for Ben and will be offered a place at a school the other end of the borough.


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[GillianC]

It has been a wet and blustery three days. The best place to be when it is raining is inside the van, our driveaway awning has a couple of leaks and now I have discovered a hole in the wind out awning - pine needles or something must have got caught on the top and wound into the awning piercing it.

So on Tuesday we drove due east towards a reservoir to see what we could see, and that included beautiful looking snow capped mountains in the distance. I think they must have been the Erymanthos range. We did not go that far, instead driving around the reservoir and getting a feel for non touristy parts of the Peloponnesus.

On the way home we stopped for dinner in a small town. Eating out in Greece appears to be 2/3 the price of Italy. We paid 35 Euros for the four of us. The restaurant was empty, and the owner/waiter/chef had to phone a friend to buy the ingredients for our meal - which was very basic grilled meat and salad. The boys loved the open fire.

On Wednesday we stayed on the campsite, and although very blustery Ben and Jack could play on the beach. A lovely river complete with tributary had formed over the sand which the boys played in wearing their wet suits. Every so often a particularly large wave would send a bore up the river and up the beach to the ditch separating the beach and farmland.

Thurday was another very wet day, and we went in search of thermal springs. The waters were warm and smelly, but not hot like the springs on Sicily. We then went on to a hilltop castle where the curators fell in love with Ben and Jack.

The castle guards the port below which we visited next to watch the large ferries connecting the Ionian islands with the mainland dock.

Ben's school admission saga has raised its ugly head once again. Apparently the Admissions Manager for Greenwich, who decided that Ben's home address is not in Greenwich, has phoned the Admissions Manager in Lewisham to say that she does not think we live there either. Quite what she is hoping to achieve by making that phone call is unclear, but the result has been an email from the Lewisham Admissions Manager now asking for confirmation that we will be living at the Lewisham address when we return to the UK. I have emailed a reply that Lewisham and Greenwich need to decide between them were Ben's principal home address is: our house in Greenwich which we consider home but don't pay the council tax; our flat in Lewisham which we don't consider home but do pay the council tax; or wherever we happen to be camping. Once they have decided they should progress the appropriate application.

It really should not make any difference whatever they decide - both our house and flat are in the catchement area of the same primary school with 90 reception class places. I would find it hard to believe that there are 90 children of Ben's age living within 1/2 mile of the school which is its distance from our house.

The absurd and real danger now will be that Greenwich will conclude that we live in Lewisham and Lewisham will conclude that we live in Greenwich, both will tear up our application forms, we will have to make an in-year school application for Ben and will be offered a place at a school the other end of the borough.


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This is So ridiculous! You must be getting really fed up with it.
Could you enlist the help of your MP?

 

[Loz]

This is starting to sound like victimisation, get your lawyer to write to them, they are adverse to the possible costs of litigation.

 

[GillianC]

This is starting to sound like victimisation, get your lawyer to write to them, they are adverse to the possible costs of litigation.

She certainly seems to have it in for you Tom!