A feeling of disappointment

[marchugo]

Jen,

As Bob already mentioned, and you already feared, the problem *might* be accumulating heat under your fridge. In all Cali's before 2014 the 230 Volt charger is situated in the same compartment as the cooling device of the fridge.
If: 1. Outside temp is above 28 Celsius
and 2. Battery is amost exhausted (under 11.6 volt)
and 3. Fridge is working really hard,
and 4. Charger is connected to outside mains 230 volt,

then: the charger automatically shuts down to prevent heat damage.
VW has recognized this design fault only in models 2014 and after, and relocated the charger to the room with the 3d battery.

Only solutions for pre 2014 california's:
- open the round service lid in the cupboard
- open the cupboard door about 15 centimeters for ventilation
- never park your fridge sunny side
- hang a shading piece of alu isolation folie outside, on the metal where the fridge is.

Next: enjoy Albert!

Sunny regards from Amsterdam,
Marc

 

[Bramco]

Return it as a bad 'un and take them up on the offer of a replacement. Don't waste any more time. Life is too short for all this hassle.

 

[GrannyJen]

Jen,

As Bob already mentioned, and you already feared, the problem *might* be accumulating heat under your fridge. In all Cali's before 2014 the 230 Volt charger is situated in the same compartment as the cooling device of the fridge.
If: 1. Outside temp is above 28 Celsius
and 2. Battery is amost exhausted (under 11.6 volt)
and 3. Fridge is working really hard,
and 4. Charger is connected to outside mains 230 volt,

then: the charger automatically shuts down to prevent heat damage.
VW has recognized this design fault only in models 2014 and after, and relocated the charger to the room with the 3d battery.

Only solutions for pre 2014 california's:
- open the round service lid in the cupboard
- open the cupboard door about 15 centimeters for ventilation
- never park your fridge sunny side
- hang a shading piece of alu isolation folie outside, on the metal where the fridge is.

Next: enjoy Albert!

Sunny regards from Amsterdam,
Marc

Marc,

Thank you

This indeed was the route I followed last year, I at least had a working camper and I could live with it, but two things happened .... one was it stopped charging altogether, which I fear will happen again, and secondly this stupid silly woman who knows nothing about campers was told that it really does not happen, there is not a design or location problem, don't be silly, we will replace CCU, we will replace charger, we will replace earth shunt, we will replace wiring harnesses, in fact ..... we will do anything but listen to plain old common sense because "we are the experts, not you".

 

[WelshGas]

Recent trip to Oxford - No Hookup - after 4 days with fridge on 4, Charging iPad and phone + Lights at night Leisure Batteries showed 70%.
I do have a Solar roof panel but it was pointed North with Roof up and I was parked under trees. Virtually 0 charge from panel.

You have a problem which they have failed to sort out. Next Stage?

 

[Max-Felix]

Email Honest John with a concise and succinct summary of every stage of this saga involving VW thus far. I really think it is time to call on some strong arm tactics regarding your statutory consumer rights and/or those in relation to your contract with VW through your warranty.

 

[motacyclist]

I think you've been very reasonable about all this.

Simply put, the van doesn't fulfil it's role as a motor home because the fridge, heater and other systems reliant on the battery cannot be used. Therefore it is not fit for purpose and a replacement of equal value should be provided with compensation for the length of time the vehicle has been off the road.

Come on VW.

 

[AlanC]

I think it is the charger is overheating.

If it is on full charge, then it will get hot until the charge rate drops over time.
As the van was in full sun, then the ambient air temperature inside that van will be very much hotter than normal, add to that the heat generated by the charge, means it gets too hot and will shut down.

Later Cali's had the charger moved to above the back battery, I assume because of an overheating issue.

Ours is under the fridge, which is not well ventilated.

Alan

 

[MarkW]

Hi Jen,

I have a 3 month old Cali from new...if I were to put the fridge on overnight the charge would drop at most to 90% (I've tried this at different temperatures).

When I first bought the Cali as an experiment I turned on the fridge and left the Cali unused for a week and the charge did not drop below 50%.

I appreciate the above may be considered unscientific but my thoughts on Albert are either;

1. The leisure batteries need replacing and are not retaining charge correctly (I would have expected the dealership to have extensively tested this)

2. There is something on the Cali drawing current causing the batteries to discharge so quickly

Have the leisure batteries been changed since you've had the problems?


regards,

Mark

 

[GrannyJen]

Hi Mark

The leisure batteries were tested, found to be good and left in place.

Like you I deliberately left the Cali fully charged for a night to see what the discharge was and in all my 100 plus nights of living in the vehicle I have never seen battery drops of 40% in less than 24 hours.

They now know there is a problem!

 

[GrannyJen]

To run a line under this thread.

Albert is quite usable now. I can at least charge the batteries from Engine, often from Hook up, just sometimes I have to be careful and monitor closely the CCU and not depend on just plugging it in and leaving it.

I really don't want to slag off the cali, if I was to get rid of Albert then it will only be for two reasons: either I have traded him in for another one or I've popped my clogs. He is back where he was when we had those tremendous adventures through a French Summer, a Belgian Autumn and a Scottish Winter. a Fabulous vehicle that performed fantastically well and and now restored to just having an occasional, niggling problem.

I do want those batteries changed. I simply can't trust them after everything those electrics have been through. Yet again I find it comtemptuous that they were not changed as a matter of course but after all these days and weeks off the road the offer as supervised by VWCC and VW technical is to ever so generously test them and if they think they are good then just leave it.

Just imagine hearing these words from Customer Care ..."We will do everything, cost in not a factor" and then they leave me with a couple of potentially knackered batteries. Absolute contempt.

 

[Skylark2.0]

Those were my thoughts exactly.

I've spent 100 nights in that vehicle from sub zero with lights on from 4pm in the afternoon and heater on, to 75 degrees parked in open country in bright sunshine and never lost more that 15% in a night.

It was tested on hook-up at SMG .... the only difference now is that it is parked in bright sunshine and the interior is hot. Strangely enough I mentioned this when the saga first started over a year ago and I keep mentioning it but no one ever seems to listen.

Does the fridge lid close fully with a click? it was a while before I got ours to do that.
Maybe you should fill it with bottles of wine to make it more efficient too .
I'm sure you are right About the difference of it sat in the bright sunshine attempting to charge. 60% sounds like a massive drop over night.
We used Starlight for a week as a Picnic lunch venue and left the fridge on for a week with minimal journey time. It was great and no problems.

 

[GrannyJen]

Does the fridge lid close fully with a click? it was a while before I got ours to do that.
Maybe you should fill it with bottles of wine to make it more efficient too .
I'm sure you are right About the difference of it sat in the bright sunshine attempting to charge. 60% sounds like a massive drop over night.
We used Starlight for a week as a Picnic lunch venue and left the fridge on for a week with minimal journey time. It was great and no problems.

Oh the fridge closes properly.

All it needs it voltage to run it.

I can't leave Albert for a week stationery and rely on the fridge because I have no idea if it is going to have any voltage or not.

 

[greenfintry]

Your saga is truly awful, and stressful if you are out in the wilds. I hardly dare make this suggestion, but since fitting a solar panel my leisure batteries have been topped up pretty much all the time.... I am no auto electrician, but since the power goes straight into the battery not through the roof controller, then the batteries would be getting charged (unless they are defective...). The solar might help you through the logic of what you are trying to figure out what s wrong, and at the least the panel is a good add on to autonomy in wild camping etc (and not needing to top up the battery with the cable at home every couple of weeks....

Just a thought...

 

[Rob H]

A solar panel, at

Your saga is truly awful, and stressful if you are out in the wilds. I hardly dare make this suggestion, but since fitting a solar panel my leisure batteries have been topped up pretty much all the time.... I am no auto electrician, but since the power goes straight into the battery not through the roof controller, then the batteries would be getting charged (unless they are defective...). The solar might help you through the logic of what you are trying to figure out what s wrong, and at the least the panel is a good add on to autonomy in wild camping etc (and not needing to top up the battery with the cable at home every couple of weeks....

Just a thought...

A semi flexible solar panel bonded onto the elevating roof, at least 100w and an MPPT charge controller, wired direct to leisure batteries, will bypass the problematic Can Bus digital control system, won't upset the suspect Can Bus controlled 240v hookup charger and vehicle generator, and keep pace in summer with normal usage fridge current drain. I use 2 x 100w solar panels, never use hook up, and this copes summer and into the winter months.

Rgrds,

Rob H.

 

[GrannyJen]

A solar panel, at

A semi flexible solar panel bonded onto the elevating roof, at least 100w and an MPPT charge controller, wired direct to leisure batteries, will bypass the problematic Can Bus digital control system, won't upset the suspect Can Bus controlled 240v hookup charger and vehicle generator, and keep pace in summer with normal usage fridge current drain. I use 2 x 100w solar panels, never use hook up, and this copes summer and into the winter months.

Rgrds,

Rob H.

Would it work with knackered batteries and, according to info received today, if battery 2 or three is unstable then refusal to accept charge intermittently would cause the problems I have.

I also will ask would a dodgy battery refuse charge from the vehicle alternator ...

Grab this one: Drive for 179 miles, as I did yesterday, stop, check readings:

12.6V ..... 70%..... -0.8 discharge.

179 miles and only 70% charged?

Is this normal?

(Rhetorical...)

Imagine this, three CCU's, earth shunt, wiring harnesses, chargers ..... all replaced,

when just changing a battery would have fixed it

 

[CannellWalker]

Not sure if our batteries are on their way out. After 2 nights at Sommiers they were down to 30%. It was prob 35°C in the day and hot at night.
Moved up into the Alps and they performed more normally.

 

[SusiBus]

We had repeated problems with our engine battery going flat, twice leaving us stranded in isolated locations in Scotland.

VW tested the battery and charging system and said there wasn't a problem. When SusiBus went into AB Crush to have its roof corrosion fixed the battery failed on them. They asked if the battery had gone very flat in the past which I confirmed it had. They said the type of battery fitted to the California, once allowed to go flat, would tend not to hold a full charge in the future. Off their own bat they changed the battery to an uprated Bosch one which they said was more expensive than the VW one, but better.

 

[GrannyJen]

^^

That's why, out of courtesy given my charging problems, that I expected my batteries to have been changed.

I have no idea how you test a battery. I know how I test one. I swan off in my camper and if I can't live for a few nights with no excessive load without them going flat then I have a problem.

I personally would think that losing 20-40% of charge in less than 24 hours would be evidence enough.

however what I personally relate as actual, physical evidence from using the vehicle, my observations based on over 100 nights, many of them utterly dependent on the vehicle performing to expectation to protect me and my life, is of no account whatsoever. What is important is that the technical team knows best. A test of a couple of minutes suggest otherwise so give the vehicle back to the stupid moaning whingeing silly woman with the same two knackered batteries on board.

Of course. All we now expect from VW. After all, roof rot cannot possibly be our fault can it, must be the stupid owners.

 

[Rob H]

Would it work with knackered batteries and, according to info received today, if battery 2 or three is unstable then refusal to accept charge intermittently would cause the problems I have.

I also will ask would a dodgy battery refuse charge from the vehicle alternator ...

Would it work with knackered batteries and, according to info received today, if battery 2 or three is unstable then refusal to accept charge intermittently would cause the problems I have.

I also will ask would a dodgy battery refuse charge from the vehicle alternator ...

Grab this one: Drive for 179 miles, as I did yesterday, stop, check readings:

12.6V ..... 70%..... -0.8 discharge.

179 miles and only 70% charged?

Is this normal?

(Rhetorical...)

Imagine this, three CCU's, earth shunt, wiring harnesses, chargers ..... all replaced,

when just changing a battery would have fixed it

Grab this one: Drive for 179 miles, as I did yesterday, stop, check readings:

12.6V ..... 70%..... -0.8 discharge.

179 miles and only 70% charged?

Is this normal?

(Rhetorical...)

Imagine this, three CCU's, earth shunt, wiring harnesses, chargers ..... all replaced,

when just changing a battery would have fixed it

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Jen,

If your leisure batteries are cream crackered /sulphated, they will not accept a full charge and confound even the cleverest digital Can Bus controlled vehicle or 240v hook up charge system.

An auto electrician can remove the leisure batteries from Albert, separately charge them for 24hrs, leave them standing for 24 / 48 hrs, then test them for 1) Quiescent voltage 2) Acid SG (specific gravity) unless sealed, 3) Heavy discharge test to identify if any self discharge issues and remaining capacity.

If your leisure batteries commence a journey at say approx 70% full charge, then they should approach full charge at least for a short while after 179 miles maybe, 4 to 5 hours motoring and charging.

A decent digital voltmeter across the leisure batteries when engine running or 240v charger hooked up, should show approx 13.5 / 13.8v. When engine switched of and or charger switched off, if leisure circuits are demanding current, for example intermittent fridge 4 amp, diesel heater running 2 amp, alarm system 1 amp, the leisure battery voltage will quickly drop and should stabilise for a useful period of time at 12.5 / 12.8 v until batteries approach exhaustion.

After all the work you have had done under warranty, and little comment from fellow forum members of known similar fault in their vehicles, it's a puzzle why a fix has not been found by the main agents, I agree with your comment the time has come for removing and re testing your existing leisure batteries, perhaps substituting with new or known good batteries at least for a trial period.

Alternative strategies building on forum member comments, perhaps something of an admission of defeat for a main dealer 'factory' fix .. appreciate may well not be a route you wish to go.

1) Installation of a computer fan fresh air in, warm air out, to force ventilate the fridge heat exchanger compartment, and lower compartment temperature, this will save more battery energy than it uses.
2) Relocation of the 240v hook up battery charger, if indeed later models of California have such a relocation modification to address overheating.
3) Solar panel installation and leisure battery charging separate to the suspect Vehicle Can Bus controlled system.

Hope you arrive at a satisfactory fix soonest, this must be so frustrating.

Rgrds,

Rob H.

 

[Neilgbj]

Is there anyone we can contact at VW to express the support of other Cali owners for your 'fight' and our concern about the very poor level of service?

 

[alstevens]

did suggest in an earlier post that a joint forum petition to vw would be worth a try - I'll sign -

Martin ?

 

[marchugo]

Hi Jen,

To avoid confusion, I would politely suggest that we, on this sublime forum, should refrain from using the term "percentage" in discussing the load status of the leisure batteries. This % shown in the CCU screen is unreliable, as it is just a calculated guess from the on board computer system.

You can test this: when the percentage for instance has sunk to 60 %, just start the engine, drive half a mile and see that de CCU suddenly shows something like 90 or even 100 %. This is impossible, as half a mile generates almost no electricity.

The only two reliable readings in the CCU are:
- Voltage (14,0 V = almost full battery; 11,0 V = almost empty battery, which should be avoided, and requires driving some fifty milies to top it up a bit).
- Ampere, which is the actual current flowing in or out of the battery (when A = plus 22, then the battery is being loaded heavily, because it is almost empty; when A= minus 3,2, for instance, this indicates that de fridge is working. So, if during driving A = + 2, for instance, this indicates that de battery is fairly topped up, and only needs a small trickle to load from the generator in the motor compartment).

By the way: the fridge and the heater are automatically switched off at about 10,5 V, to prevent damage to the leisure batteries.


100 percent greetings from Amsterdam,

Marc.

 

[Tactical]

...when A = plus 22, then the battery is being loaded heavily, because it is almost empty; when A= minus 3,2, for instance, this indicates that de fridge is working. So, if during driving A = + 2, for instance, this indicates that de battery is fairly topped up, and only needs a small trickle to load from the generator in the motor compartment

For the avoidance of doubt (and because I had to read his post a couple of times to be sure), I believe marchugo means:

"when A = plus 22, then the battery is being charged heavily, because it is almost empty; when A= minus 3,2, for instance, this indicates that de fridge is working. So, if during driving A = + 2, for instance, this indicates that de battery is fairly topped up, and only needs a small trickle charge from the generator in the motor compartment"​

The ambiguity arises because 'loaded' (heavily or lightly) normally refers to the amount of load placed on the battery (i.e. how much current is being drawn from it) - not how quickly it is being 'filled' (which is the sense in which marchugo uses loaded)

 

[GrannyJen]

All the above who have contributed, thank you.

Marc,

I now keep a diary.

I drove 360 miles on Tuesday, to a funeral and back. After 180 miles the V read 12.8 and A -.2 which would be instrumentation. The % was a ridiculous 70%.

More importantly, I arrived home 18.30 Tuesday. after half an hour shut down .... V 12.8, A -3.2

At 1830 Wednesday, after just a (full ) fridge on setting 4 V 12.6, A -0.8

At 1730 today V 12.0 A -0.8


Not sure what that tells me, if I was camping, unable to get hook up and remaining stationary, when of course I would have lights on, Music systems being used, I pad and laptops charging and perhaps even a bit of heater on at night then I would be getting worried as the display after 48 hours shows 60% remaining.

 

[2into1]

GrannyJen, do SMG not have a demo on the fleet that they could temporarily swap over the batteries into Albert? (All 3). I would imagine it's the least they could do given their efforts to-date.
If you get the same performance, at least you've eliminated another possible cause.