Am I being stitched up?

[OGII]

I know it is not any help but for anyone considering a Cali …. One of the main reasons we went for a Coast was the manual roof. Whilst it is a little tricky to start with there are just too many terrible stories like this here and elsewhere. We compromised and had the option so you can open the front of the roof completely …. But it is a reason for some of us to choose a Coast.
Good luck though … and as on the Cornish border knowing the Kernow connection is very useful.Thank you. I only say this really fothose considering which way to go!

I was wondering how long before the manual roof would be mentioned.... Seemed insensitive given the OP's costly troubles. Does make you realise the value of dealers and independents that put in the time and effort to understand the likely problems/ best fixes for Cali without just guessing big ticket repair option after the next.

 

[dartmoordingoe]

I was wondering how long before the manual roof would be mentioned.... Seemed insensitive given the OP's costly troubles. Does make you realise the value of dealers and independents that put in the time and effort to understand the likely problems/ best fixes for Cali without just guessing big ticket repair option after the next.

I didnt mean to be insensitive and said I realise it is hard on th OP. However I was addressing my comment to people thinking about a Cali who would be concerned about this issue.
From where I sit the real story is just how poor these VW dealers often are. On top of that really lacking in knowledge about Cali which they choose to sell. It strikes me the OP has been badly let down at the very least.

 

[andyinluton]

I didnt mean to be insensitive and said I realise it is hard on th OP. However I was addressing my comment to people thinking about a Cali who would be concerned about this issue.
From where I sit the real story is just how poor these VW dealers often are. On top of that really lacking in knowledge about Cali which they choose to sell. It strikes me the OP has been badly let down at the very least.

Whilst not wanting to appear to be defending VW, Hatfield is not listed by VW as a specialist california centre so wouldn't be expected to have a technician that deals with the camping side of things.

The number of hydraulic failures is in reality very small, the OPs van has worked fine for the previous 11 years, if there were masses of failures there would have been independent specialists by now, or people offering conversion kits.

Wooburn Green Van centre has someone that is familiar with the roof hydraulics, he has just replaced the rams on mine & is awaiting supply of the currently unobtainable hydraulic pump before replacing that as well.
The rams are a quick & easy replacement, the pump is a major & I assume expensive amount of work.

Despite my current problems I would not hesitate to go for the hydraulic roof again.

 

[dartmoordingoe]

Good to know. ….. but none the less looking at similar threads … for me at least its one to avoid … as you say each to his / her own ….

 

[WelshGas]

Good to know. ….. but none the less looking at similar threads … for me at least its one to avoid … as you say each to his / her own ….

Going by that basis. I would avoid the T6.1. Lots of threads about the Control Panel, Taps, Charging etc:. One to avoid at all costs.

 

[andyinluton]

Going by that basis. I would avoid the T6.1. Lots of threads about the Control Panel, Taps, Charging etc:. One to avoid at all costs.

Over the years there have been quite a few engine problems as well, both timing belts and turbos, best avoid any VW with an engine.

 

[two-saabs]

Over the years there have been quite a few engine problems as well, both timing belts and turbos, best avoid any VW with an engine.

Agree with all of this, really important to keep the perspective, people usually shout the loudest when they have a problem, then vanish when they're happy!

Nothing unique to the California, or vehicles, or the UK... Just the way we are I suppose

 

[OGII]

Over the years there have been quite a few engine problems as well, both timing belts and turbos, best avoid any VW with an engine.

Trouble is this is oversimplifing the avoid buying or doing anything as everything breaks argument. In the case of roofs buyers have a choice to limit the complexity of the product so that in the long term there is less to go wrong.

All cars and vans have variants or model years that are known to have more built in issues or glitches than others. If the electric roof suits your needs and particularly if you rotate vehicles soon after warranties expire the uber complex all singing and dancing version is a great thing. Fast forward a decade or two and those control panels, looms etc suddenly look less attractive.

I'm no expert but the original Transporters, T2, T25, T4, early T5 without complex engine management, lane assist, cruise etc. will still be out there long after some of our current vans have become non-economic to repair. The computer really will say no and they'll grind to a halt. VW software isn't exactly known to be overly good. Question is which options will prove to be the achilles heal?

 

[Ozzy Pete]

Trouble is this is oversimplifing the avoid buying or doing anything as everything breaks argument. In the case of roofs buyers have a choice to limit the complexity of the product so that in the long term there is less to go wrong.

All cars and vans have variants or model years that are known to have more built in issues or glitches than others. If the electric roof suits your needs and particularly if you rotate vehicles soon after warranties expire the uber complex all singing and dancing version is a great thing. Fast forward a decade or two and those control panels, looms etc suddenly look less attractive.

I'm no expert but the original Transporters, T2, T25, T4, early T5 without complex engine management, lane assist, cruise etc. will still be out there long after some of our current vans have become non-economic to repair. The computer really will say no and they'll grind to a halt. VW software isn't exactly known to be overly good. Question is which options will prove to be the achilles heal?

I love the bit about VW software not being overly good.. that was very diplomatic of you...

 

[two-saabs]

Trouble is this is oversimplifing the avoid buying or doing anything as everything breaks argument. In the case of roofs buyers have a choice to limit the complexity of the product so that in the long term there is less to go wrong.

All cars and vans have variants or model years that are known to have more built in issues or glitches than others. If the electric roof suits your needs and particularly if you rotate vehicles soon after warranties expire the uber complex all singing and dancing version is a great thing. Fast forward a decade or two and those control panels, looms etc suddenly look less attractive.

I'm no expert but the original Transporters, T2, T25, T4, early T5 without complex engine management, lane assist, cruise etc. will still be out there long after some of our current vans have become non-economic to repair. The computer really will say no and they'll grind to a halt. VW software isn't exactly known to be overly good. Question is which options will prove to be the achilles heal?

Generally yes, but there is a balance of risk/reward that must be found, otherwise you don't have anything "new and fancy" and miss out.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Trouble is this is oversimplifing the avoid buying or doing anything as everything breaks argument. In the case of roofs buyers have a choice to limit the complexity of the product so that in the long term there is less to go wrong.

All cars and vans have variants or model years that are known to have more built in issues or glitches than others. If the electric roof suits your needs and particularly if you rotate vehicles soon after warranties expire the uber complex all singing and dancing version is a great thing. Fast forward a decade or two and those control panels, looms etc suddenly look less attractive.

I'm no expert but the original Transporters, T2, T25, T4, early T5 without complex engine management, lane assist, cruise etc. will still be out there long after some of our current vans have become non-economic to repair. The computer really will say no and they'll grind to a halt. VW software isn't exactly known to be overly good. Question is which options will prove to be the achilles heal?

Ive come to the conclusion the Coast has so many standard options missing, it’s really not worth considering against the Ocean.

I personally hate the electric roof.
Had both, but a big advantage is being able to raise and lower the roof electrically with loads attached. Something that’s possible with the manual, but a bit of a struggle.

Once my van gets to a certain age, I will possibly convert the roof to manual once it becomes problematic. It’s already been done by a couple of people here with some good write-ups about the process.
Worth a search…

 

[OGII]

Generally yes, but there is a balance of risk/reward that must be found, otherwise you don't have anything "new and fancy" and miss out.

This is an interesting point but longevity in our "new and fancy" items is becoming an issue with our desire for more and more features.

People buy and replace expensive items like iPhones and feature rich TV, upgrading to the new and shiny. This is natural but ultimately wasteful, the old may be handed down but ultimately they are sent to landfill or recycled relatively early compared to simpler devices. Most wont be repaired in their lifetime.

The fancy systems or features on a modern Cali limit its longevity, which given the history of VW buses in particular as long lasting cultural icons mean the new ones wont cut it compared to the older ones.

The average person looking for a second hand van wont have or want to spend the £££ to keep it running, especially as some dealers simply don't know how to fix their products without big punt £2500 fixes after the next. The thread about @Coasterman 6 month van being stuck in the dealers for over a month is another cautionary tale, if you can't diagnose faults on complex vehicles you can't fix them easily.

It makes @Elmo3 decison to upgrade to an older Beach from a costly newer vehicle look inspired. He's not missing out, on the contrary he seems happier with Cali ownership than before.

 

[two-saabs]

Ive come to the conclusion the Coast has so many standard options missing, it’s really not worth considering against the Ocean.

I personally hate the electric roof.
Had both, but a big advantage is being able to raise and lower the roof electrically with loads attached. Something that’s possible with the manual, but a bit of a struggle.

Once my van gets to a certain age, I will possibly convert the roof to manual once it becomes problematic. It’s already been done by a couple of people here with some good write-ups about the process.
Worth a search…

I have the same plan in mind, enjoy the electric roof from new, see every year outside of warranty as a bonus, and if it breaks, convert to manual for approx 1000 euros, original parts, as per:

Roof conversion hydraulic >> manual

After the explosion of the right hydraulic cylinder I decided to convert the roof into a manual roof. I did it by myself and used the original parts of the Beach. Costs about 1170€. Verry satisfied.

vwcaliforniaclub.com

 

[two-saabs]

This is an interesting point but longevity in our "new and fancy" items is becoming an issue with our desire for more and more features.

People buy and replace expensive items like iPhones and feature rich TV, upgrading to the new and shiny. This is natural but ultimately wasteful, the old may be handed down but ultimately they are sent to landfill or recycled relatively early compared to simpler devices. Most wont be repaired in their lifetime.

The fancy systems or features on a modern Cali limit its longevity, which given the history of VW buses in particular as long lasting cultural icons mean the new ones wont cut it compared to the older ones.

The average person looking for a second hand van wont have or want to spend the £££ to keep it running, especially as some dealers simply don't know how to fix their products without big punt £2500 fixes after the next. The thread about @Coasterman 6 month van being stuck in the dealers for over a month is another cautionary tale, if you can't diagnose faults on complex vehicles you can't fix them easily.

It makes @Elmo3 decison to upgrade to an older Beach from a costly newer vehicle look inspired. He's not missing out, on the contrary he seems happier with Cali ownership than before.

I do agree that simpler stuff can be the better way, but specially for old vehicles I do think there is some nostalgia and romanticism taking over.

Moving stuff breaks, and you need someone who can fix it. Newer vehicles (less than 10 years old) should have trained experts available.

Older vehicles is a strange old world, new apprentices won't have trained on them, the ones who were around when the vans were new would be now retiring.

Nothing unique for California's, take Porsche for example, a nice year 2000 Boxster was made before some of the mechanics were born, better go to a specialist. The advice generally (for Porsche owners) is if you spend 10k on the car, have 10k in the bank for emergency repairs. If the thought of breaks and costs keeps you awake at night then don't do it, get a bit less fun but still nice BMW instead.

Back to Calis, in our family we have spent a lot of time and money to keep T2s and T3s on the road, after too many spoiled weekends we sold them.

Exactly the same kind of experience, just with old stuff not new stuff... breaking down on the way there, or on site, or coming back, then a month in the garage, back on the road for a day, then back in the garage...

 

[Elmo3]

This is an interesting point but longevity in our "new and fancy" items is becoming an issue with our desire for more and more features.

People buy and replace expensive items like iPhones and feature rich TV, upgrading to the new and shiny. This is natural but ultimately wasteful, the old may be handed down but ultimately they are sent to landfill or recycled relatively early compared to simpler devices. Most wont be repaired in their lifetime.

The fancy systems or features on a modern Cali limit its longevity, which given the history of VW buses in particular as long lasting cultural icons mean the new ones wont cut it compared to the older ones.

The average person looking for a second hand van wont have or want to spend the £££ to keep it running, especially as some dealers simply don't know how to fix their products without big punt £2500 fixes after the next. The thread about @Coasterman 6 month van being stuck in the dealers for over a month is another cautionary tale, if you can't diagnose faults on complex vehicles you can't fix them easily.

It makes @Elmo3 decison to upgrade to an older Beach from a costly newer vehicle look inspired. He's not missing out, on the contrary he seems happier with Cali ownership than before.

It’s an interesting one. It’s not simply a case of having manufacturer warranty any more. If you have a problem, it’s often a 2 or 3 week wait just to get a vehicle looked at, let alone fixed! Not much use if you’re about to go on a trip. It’s not just the manual roof and 5 cylinder engine I like, all habitation equipment is accessible and easily fixed if there’s a problem. The sink in the pod is a useable size. Oh, and a Cali is so much better as a LHD, it’s the way it was designed to work!

 

[two-saabs]

It’s an interesting one. It’s not simply a case of having manufacturer warranty any more. If you have a problem, it’s often a 2 or 3 week wait just to get a vehicle looked at, let alone fixed! Not much use if you’re about to go on a trip. It’s not just the manual roof and 5 cylinder engine I like, all habitation equipment is accessible and easily fixed if there’s a problem. The sink in the pod is a useable size. Oh, and a Cali is so much better as a LHD, it’s the way it was designed to work!
View attachment 82790View attachment 82791

Glad you said about LHD, I was thinking over the weekend what if we move back to the UK what will we do, keep it is the answer!

Back to the more serious point about reliability, it's definitely personal, that's what I realise and explains why the discussions get so heated.

Case in point, my son recently bought his first car, VW Polo, it's engine blew up last month and he feels so stupid for it. Luckily the warranty company covers the lion's share of the cost. Meanwhile, as I've explained to him, I bought a brand new Volvo and never have to worry about it. So his car cost him a few hundred pounds and some sleepless nights, I sleep like a baby but lost about 25k in depreciation!

 

[WelshGas]

Let's put this difference of opinion on a more pragmatic level.
To start with it is pretty poor of VW not to have a Dealership network that cannot deal with such California specific problems and there should be a system with specialist Dealerships that any VW Commercial dealership can refer to for advice if not to do the work.
The number of problems with the hydraulic roof, Outside Warranty, are a definite minority. Probably significantly less than 100 on this Forum.
If the OP has to spend £5000 to get his roof fixed then that is £5000 on a 11 year old vehicle.
This works out at about £450/Yr. Less than £1.50/day. Substantially less than a good cup of coffee and not far off a daily broadsheet newspaper.
I'm prepared to forgo a cup of coffee every other day for the convenience of pressing a button.

 

[Elmo3]

Let's put this difference of opinion on a more pragmatic level.
To start with it is pretty poor of VW not to have a Dealership network that cannot deal with such California specific problems and there should be a system with specialist Dealerships that any VW Commercial dealership can refer to for advice if not to do the work.
The number of problems with the hydraulic roof, Outside Warranty, are a definite minority. Probably significantly less than 100 on this Forum.
If the OP has to spend £5000 to get his roof fixed then that is £5000 on a 11 year old vehicle.
This works out at about £450/Yr. Less than £1.50/day. Substantially less than a good cup of coffee and not far off a daily broadsheet newspaper.
I'm prepared to forgo a cup of coffee every other day for the convenience of pressing a button.

I guess the beef is that it isn’t a £5K job. If the right mechanic looked at it, it’s probably a grand to fix and right first time. Cost aside, it’s the inconvenience and stress caused.

 

[two-saabs]

Let's put this difference of opinion on a more pragmatic level.
To start with it is pretty poor of VW not to have a Dealership network that cannot deal with such California specific problems and there should be a system with specialist Dealerships that any VW Commercial dealership can refer to for advice if not to do the work.
The number of problems with the hydraulic roof, Outside Warranty, are a definite minority. Probably significantly less than 100 on this Forum.
If the OP has to spend £5000 to get his roof fixed then that is £5000 on a 11 year old vehicle.
This works out at about £450/Yr. Less than £1.50/day. Substantially less than a good cup of coffee and not far off a daily broadsheet newspaper.
I'm prepared to forgo a cup of coffee every other day for the convenience of pressing a button.

This is my thinking too

 

[soulstyledevon]

Let's put this difference of opinion on a more pragmatic level.
To start with it is pretty poor of VW not to have a Dealership network that cannot deal with such California specific problems and there should be a system with specialist Dealerships that any VW Commercial dealership can refer to for advice if not to do the work.
The number of problems with the hydraulic roof, Outside Warranty, are a definite minority. Probably significantly less than 100 on this Forum.
If the OP has to spend £5000 to get his roof fixed then that is £5000 on a 11 year old vehicle.
This works out at about £450/Yr. Less than £1.50/day. Substantially less than a good cup of coffee and not far off a daily broadsheet newspaper.
I'm prepared to forgo a cup of coffee every other day for the convenience of pressing a button.

I agree, faulty electric roofs are a minority.

However the cost to fix is quite frankly obscene and unacceptable.
At £5k for a roof repair?
When a quality after market roof can be installed from scratch at similar cost. Granted, it will only be manual.
But still…

 

[two-saabs]

I guess the beef is that it isn’t a £5K job. If the right mechanic looked at it, it’s probably a grand to fix and right first time. Cost aside, it’s the inconvenience and stress caused.

Exactly, it's the feeling of being ripped off which hits hard

 

[Azteccamper]

TBH I really wouldn’t mind travelling anywhere to get the roof diagnosed, fixed quickly and accurately and have confidence that the job has been completed to the highest standards - and pay accordingly. But where?

When I had to replace sensors recently it was hard work. No local converter, independent garages, auto-electricians were interested.
So it was to my local dealer (Sinclair VW) who fixed the problem at a price, but were only willing to do the simple fix not the complete new roof harness replacement (which I was more than happy with). It works again and I’m happy - but my heart was in my mouth for the few hours they had it as they inspired no confidence (and yes my bellows were jammed in the closed roof at one point!).

Anyone up for starting a business?

The other thing is my T5.1 is now 9 yrs old and given us no trouble. I have recently been offered more than I paid for it (ad on this forum) 5 yrs ago. I love it and genuinely cannot see us changing to a newer version as it just does all we want from a camper.

 

[WelshGas]

I agree, faulty electric roofs are a minority.

However the cost to fix is quite frankly obscene and unacceptable.
At £5k for a roof repair?
When a quality after market roof can be installed from scratch at similar cost. Granted, it will only be manual.
But still…

But that's probably due to this particular Dealership judging by some of the comments already made.

 

[OGII]

To start with it is pretty poor of VW not to have a Dealership network that cannot deal with such California specific problems and there should be a system with specialist Dealerships that any VW Commercial dealership can refer to for advice if not to do the work.

This is the crux of it. The California is one of VW's halo products but they don't put a halo service provision into support it.

The vans definitely don't fit into the car dealer system that would make no sense, the van dealers know the mechanicals best. Your idea of regional specialists within the network is so obvious but I guess the 'normal' dealers wouldn't want to pass on profit to the specialists. That and ultimately the Cali is a very niche product in numerical terms, not worth the investment in terms of setting up the specialists.

The problem is bigger than just roof choices though, it's all the habitation and add on systems. I guess the good dealers will ultimately win out as they put the effort into understanding their products and the customers.

 

[two-saabs]

This is the crux of it. The California is one of VW's halo products but they don't put a halo service provision into support it.

The van's definitely don't fit into the car dealer system that would make no sense, the van dealers know the mechanicals best. Your idea of regional specialists within the network is so obvious but I guess the 'normal' dealers wouldn't want to pass on profit to the specialists. That and ultimately the Cali is a very niche product in numerical terms, not worth the investment in terms of setting up the specialists.

The problem is bigger than just roof choices though, it's all the habitation and add on systems. I guess the good dealers will ultimately win out as they put the effort into understanding their products and the customers.

Niche, but only to a certain level ... There are estimates that about 15,000 California's sold worldwide every year, which is way more than say the fairly common Porsche 911 or a Jaguar XKR, which had full network support from the main dealerships + specialists.

Meaning it's worth setting up the network! Easy for us to say though, just words, need actions...