Charging Leisure Batteries

[torbet]

Hello,

I wonder if anyone can offer some advice.

BACKGROUND
I've had a T4 California Coach for about 12 years now. Late last year, a few days before we moved from UK to France for work, whilst the van was plugged in charging, it filled with smoke. As some may know, it was a problem with the AC/DC convertor, which I removed.

I replaced it with, what I believe is an original Wesfalia model from an online company in Germany (vwbusshop.de). Between the 'accident' and the replacement, 6 months passed. Thus the van was never plugged in charging, but was being driving 20-30 miles per month, with a couple of big long drives every two months. Charging from the engine seems to work well. I have two gel leisure batteries fitted, which are about two years old.

I have no background in electrics, although I understand the basic concepts.

PROBLEM
When the van is being driving, the reading on the control panel is 13-14 volts, with the reading dropping to 12.6-ish when the engine is off.

Now when I plug the new charger in, I don't get the 'prongs' symbol on the control panel and it only reads 12.8 volts. I've had it plugged in for 24 - 48 hours at a time. When I unplug it, the control panel reading sits at around 12.4-ish volts, but within days the batteries are flat (ie the control panel is flashing, without any reading).

I returned the charger to the company, explained the problem and asked them to check it. They did that, without any hassle (or indeed cost) and returned it to me saying that the outputs were all fine.

Interestingly, when I plug it into mains AND turn on the engine, I get 14.4 volts on the Control Panel and the 'prongs' symbol comes on.

The 240v plug Inside the van works fine with the mains plugged in.

My wife took the van down to a local garage in Paris, who checked the batteries and said they were fine (however, I must point out that this was by putting a voltmetter across the battery when the van was plugged in to the mains, so I'm not convinced that this was sufficient to say the batteries are without a problem).

WAY FORWARD
So, I am after any advice to what the problem might be before spending much more of my hard earned money at a VW specialist garage trying to solve the problem.

I wonder if it might be the batteries (or one of them), or that the convertor isn't pushing out enough amps/volts to charge the batteries properly (or register with the control panel that the mains is plugged in), is there a tiny relay or connection somewhere that might be causing all this or do I just have a gremlin in my bus!

Thanks in advance for anyone who has the time and knowledge to assist,

Jim

 

[pabloalfa76]

Hi Jim,

Welcome to the forum, that's quite a big first post!

On my van, the display shows about 14volts when first plugged into hook-up and then slowly drops down to around 13volts over the first 12hours. The prongs show up straight away.
I have an original charger installed, let me know if you need any readings or outputs checked?

Also have a look through the T4 section, as other people have had charging problems that may shed some light for you.

Cheers, Paul.

 

[sidepod]

Hello,

I wonder if anyone can offer some advice.

BACKGROUND
I've had a T4 California Coach for about 12 years now. Late last year, a few days before we moved from UK to France for work, whilst the van was plugged in charging, it filled with smoke. As some may know, it was a problem with the AC/DC convertor, which I removed.

I replaced it with, what I believe is an original Wesfalia model from an online company in Germany (vwbusshop.de). Between the 'accident' and the replacement, 6 months passed. Thus the van was never plugged in charging, but was being driving 20-30 miles per month, with a couple of big long drives every two months. Charging from the engine seems to work well. I have two gel leisure batteries fitted, which are about two years old.

I have no background in electrics, although I understand the basic concepts.

PROBLEM
When the van is being driving, the reading on the control panel is 13-14 volts, with the reading dropping to 12.6-ish when the engine is off.

Correct. What you are seeing there is the output of the alternator. When you switch off the engine you are seeing the voltage of the leisure batteries.

Now when I plug the new charger in, I don't get the 'prongs' symbol on the control panel and it only reads 12.8 volts. I've had it plugged in for 24 - 48 hours at a time. When I unplug it, the control panel reading sits at around 12.4-ish volts, but within days the batteries are flat (ie the control panel is flashing, without any reading).

Again correct. There is some debate on the forum as to when you should see the mains plug icon.
I only get it displayed when the batteries are fully charged i.e. The fact you re only seeing 12.8v means your leisure batteries are simply not charged.

I returned the charger to the company, explained the problem and asked them to check it. They did that, without any hassle (or indeed cost) and returned it to me saying that the outputs were all fine.

Interestingly, when I plug it into mains AND turn on the engine, I get 14.4 volts on the Control Panel and the 'prongs' symbol comes on.

Again you are adding the output of the alternator. With the engine running you have engaged the split charge relay so the batteries are seeing the alternator input. The mains symbol displays as it thinks the batteries are charged. You would not normally have the engine running on hook-up.

The 240v plug Inside the van works fine with the mains plugged in.

My wife took the van down to a local garage in Paris, who checked the batteries and said they were fine (however, I must point out that this was by putting a voltmetter across the battery when the van was plugged in to the mains, so I'm not convinced that this was sufficient to say the batteries are without a problem).

WAY FORWARD
So, I am after any advice to what the problem might be before spending much more of my hard earned money at a VW specialist garage trying to solve the problem.

I wonder if it might be the batteries (or one of them), or that the convertor isn't pushing out enough amps/volts to charge the batteries properly (or register with the control panel that the mains is plugged in), is there a tiny relay or connection somewhere that might be causing all this or do I just have a gremlin in my bus!

Thanks in advance for anyone who has the time and knowledge to assist,

Your problem is simply that your gel batteries are not properly charged. From what you've said they have only had a few hours on the alternator. Plug the mains hook up cable in at home and leave it for at least 5 days. Gel batteries take a long time to get up to full capacity. When not in use always try to leave the hook up cable connected to the mains so the batteries are always on charge.

One other thing worth checking is that your control panel (the display that shows the battery voltage) is set to the correct type and number of leisure batteries. There is a link in the useful stuff section that explains this. Basically on the rear of the panel are switches that need to be set to either one or two leisure batteries and the brand of battery fitted.

Jim

 

[TwentyOneThirtyFive]

Now when I plug the new charger in, I don't get the 'prongs' symbol on the control panel and it only reads 12.8 volts. I've had it plugged in for 24 - 48 hours at a time. When I unplug it, the control panel reading sits at around 12.4-ish volts, but within days the batteries are flat (ie the control panel is flashing, without any reading).

Again correct. There is some debate on the forum as to when you should see the mains plug icon.
I only get it displayed when the batteries are fully charged i.e. The fact you re only seeing 12.8v means your leisure batteries are simply not charged.

You guys both have new chargers and don't get the prongs until fully charged.

I'm going to hazard a guess that those of us that see the prongs as soon as we're plugged in are running the original chargers.

 

[sidepod]

Dan, when you say original do you mean genuine Westy charger units or the one still fitted from the day it left the production line?

My charger is a not the original but is a genuine Westy unit.

It's always a bit iffy. Sometimes I see the plug icon sometimes I don't but it always displays upon full charge. As soon as switch on some load the charge level reduces slightly and the icon disappears.

To my mind it would make sense to display the plug symbol regardless of the charge state of the batteries.

Having said that I could understand it only displaying when batteries are fully charged, i.e. the batteries are charged and all of the load is now being fed directly from mains.

I thought we had a link in your useful stuff section to the translated T4-Wiki pages tat details this control panel? i have a print out in my files.

S.

 

[sidepod]

Here's the link….


http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...indow=1&client=safari&rls=en&biw=1253&bih=664

Go to table of contents, Electrics and under section B is E153 control unit.



http://www.t4-wiki.de/wiki/Bedienungs-_und_Anzeigeeinheit_E153_(Campingausstattung)


S.

 

[TwentyOneThirtyFive]

I meant originally fitted at the factory.

I suspect something has changed in the design over the years.

 

[vw_liz]

Hi Jim,

What year is your california?

Not charging on hook up.
Quite a few things that could be checked but given the information you have posted I would start by checking the temperature sensor G18/2 is working correctly. This sensor adjusts the charge voltage to the batteries depending on the temperature in the battery box. I have read that if the temperature is high (or the sensor is reporting too high..) then the charge voltage will be lowered.

https://translate.google.co.uk/translat ... atterie%29

If your not handy with a multimeter another way to test the above sensor is to swap it with the outside temperature sensor G17 (they are apparently the same?), I think it is behind the front bumper.

No hook up icon on display.
Did this icon appear as soon as connected to hook up on the old charger?
Terminal 5 on the charger is the one responsible for making the icon display. From what I have read so far when the charger outputs ~14v on this line the hook up icon will appear on the display. I would interested in what yours measures as I am trying to get the hookup icon to work on my Cali using a non westfalia charger.

I wonder if the temperature sensor is not working correctly could it also be causing this issue? Maybe it would be worth checking your sensor and terminal 5 output as well Sidepod?

This document details troubleshooting steps for the charger. Be careful, as this is a translation (google) from the original German document it may take a few reads to understand!



Good luck!

Jim

 

[torbet]

What a fantastic response. Thank you all. To confirm it is a 1996 California Coach

Paul, thanks for offering to take some readings.

Sidepod, You are clearly well versed in leisure battery charging! The panel used to show the prong symbol as soon as it was plugged in. The first that this didn't happen is with the new charger. It seems to be genuine Westfalia, but it is not exactly the same as the one I took out. Connections are the same, but the size is slightly different and there is an additional connection beyond the 240v mains lead in and the 5/6 pin output plug (it's a two pin socket; no idea what it is for). It seems you are experiencing the same conditions as I, in terms of the control panel. I've plugged it into the mains and will take your advice, and leave it there for a week or so. I'll check it at the weekend and see if what readings I get (and whether the prongs appear!). I can send a photo of my charger, then we can confirm that if they are the same 'new' original model. I might get in touch with Westfalia and see if they can explain if there is a difference in output readings to the control panel in the newer model (as TwentyOneThirtyFive suspects). I'm pretty sure the handbook says that the prongs symbol should appear as soon as it is plugged in.

vw-liz (or indeed vw-jim?). I'll leave it plugged in for a few days and see if the batteries are charging. If I get nothing after a week, I'll take a crack at checking the temp sensors. I will try and check the output voltage of Terminal 5 tonight and at the weekend, to see what the readings are, and if they have changed. It will be interesting to see if the reading has increased after a week or charging, particularly if the prongs appear at some point. Thanks for the diagram; so I'll try the whole process. If the batteries are charged after a week, but the prong only comes on near the end, it will be interesting to see what the output of Terminal 5 is throughout.

Thanks again all for your advice. I will keep you updated.

Jim

 

[sidepod]

What a fantastic response. Thank you all. To confirm it is a 1996 California Coach

Paul, thanks for offering to take some readings.

Sidepod, You are clearly well versed in leisure battery charging! The panel used to show the prong symbol as soon as it was plugged in. The first that this didn't happen is with the new charger. It seems to be genuine Westfalia, but it is not exactly the same as the one I took out. Connections are the same, but the size is slightly different and there is an additional connection beyond the 240v mains lead in and the 5/6 pin output plug (it's a two pin socket; no idea what it is for).

This is the output for charging the starter battery when on hook-up. It has it's own separate output due to the fact it must be connected on the opposite side of the split charge relay to the leisure batteries.
Your wiring loom has this facility so find the cabling and connect it. At the starter battery there will be an additional red wire going back to the split charge relay (sited under the fridge area), this is the one you need in addition to the earth.

It seems you are experiencing the same conditions as I, in terms of the control panel. I've plugged it into the mains and will take your advice, and leave it there for a week or so. I'll check it at the weekend and see if what readings I get (and whether the prongs appear!). I can send a photo of my charger, then we can confirm that if they are the same 'new' original model. I might get in touch with Westfalia and see if they can explain if there is a difference in output readings to the control panel in the newer model (as TwentyOneThirtyFive suspects). I'm pretty sure the handbook says that the prongs symbol should appear as soon as it is plugged in.

vw-liz (or indeed vw-jim?). I'll leave it plugged in for a few days and see if the batteries are charging. If I get nothing after a week, I'll take a crack at checking the temp sensors. I will try and check the output voltage of Terminal 5 tonight and at the weekend, to see what the readings are, and if they have changed. It will be interesting to see if the reading has increased after a week or charging, particularly if the prongs appear at some point. Thanks for the diagram; so I'll try the whole process. If the batteries are charged after a week, but the prong only comes on near the end, it will be interesting to see what the output of Terminal 5 is throughout.

Thanks again all for your advice. I will keep you updated.

Jim

 

[sidepod]

Strong work Jim,

I've always wondered what that thing in the battery compartment was for.

I've measured the output on my charger previously at 13.6v. Perhaps my sensor is a bit dodge!

I'll get on it once she's out of her winter home.

S.

 

[torbet]

OK, I take it charging the starter battery when hooked up wasn't possible with the 'original' fitted Westfalia chargers? There are only two sockets on the older one.

Do you have the starter battery cable plugged in? If not, perhaps that lack of output might be causing us the strange readings......

Jim

 

[vw_liz]

I'll leave it plugged in for a few days and see if the batteries are charging. If I get nothing after a week, I'll take a crack at checking the temp sensors. I will try and check the output voltage of Terminal 5 tonight and at the weekend, to see what the readings are, and if they have changed. It will be interesting to see if the reading has increased after a week or charging, particularly if the prongs appear at some point. Thanks for the diagram; so I'll try the whole process. If the batteries are charged after a week, but the prong only comes on near the end, it will be interesting to see what the output of Terminal 5 is throughout.

Great I would be very interested to hear the outcome

I would say however that if it takes that long to fully charge the leisure batteries then you either have very large Ah batteries, the charger is not putting out enough voltage or your batteries have had it?

Do you have 2 batteries? what ratings/type are they? If you are running 2 80Ah batteries I would expect to see them ~90% charged after maybe 18 hours as the charger is rated at 9-10amps (I think?). This would make me think something else may not be right?

This is the output for charging the starter battery when on hook-up. It has it's own separate output due to the fact it must be connected on the opposite side of the split charge relay to the leisure batteries.
Your wiring loom has this facility so find the cabling and connect it. At the starter battery there will be an additional red wire going back to the split charge relay (sited under the fridge area), this is the one you need in addition to the earth.

Do you know if all vans have this wiring? I haven't seen it on mine (haven't looked for it though!) but it would be great if it is there, I was hoping to add a small charger so the starter battery charges on hookup. Would be great not to have to run new a wire to the front!

Strong work Jim,

I've always wondered what that thing in the battery compartment was for.

I've measured the output on my charger previously at 13.6v. Perhaps my sensor is a bit dodge!

I'll get on it once she's out of her winter home.

S.

Thanks, complete guesswork though! :crazy

This also may be of use to someone, its just the wiring diagram from the SSP 136 (http://www.westfaliat4.info/VW_T4_Calif ... SP_136.pdf) but its on one page with the parts labeled. Makes it a bit easier to work out (for me at least!).

vw-liz (or indeed vw-jim?).

Haha! I've been caught! It's only vw_liz at weekends!
My wife originally created the account (hence the name) but I've used it to discuss the "geeky" stuff (as she would put it!). :lol:

Cheers,

Jim

 

[sidepod]

J7 being the split charge relay. Pin 87 is the output to the starter battery.

S.

 

[torbet]

OK, partial update. I'm not going to get the chance to take the back end apart to check the readings from the charger until the weekend.

The control panel is currently reading 12.6v; no prongs; the battery symbol and the first and last marks of the battery meter (if that makes sense, it's like this: ^________^ ) are showing.

Jim, I've two leisure batteries. I though they were 110Ah, but I will check that at the weekend.

I'm really interested to see what the output of the charger is.......

 

[vw_liz]

OK, partial update. I'm not going to get the chance to take the back end apart to check the readings from the charger until the weekend.

The control panel is currently reading 12.6v; no prongs; the battery symbol and the first and last marks of the battery meter (if that makes sense, it's like this: ^________^ ) are showing.

Jim, I've two leisure batteries. I though they were 110Ah, but I will check that at the weekend.

I'm really interested to see what the output of the charger is.......

Interesting, well I would expect the reading on the display is the output of the charger. same as when the engine is running you see the charging voltage, ~14v, from the alternator on the display?
Would still be worth a double check the output of the charger directly.

If the output really is 12.6v then the batteries will never charge as I think I read somewhere that 12 volt batteries need at least 12.9v to charge?

The manual says the display shows the first and last marks when there is nothing running from the batteries. 5 minutes after something is running it will switch to showing the amount of charge remaining.

Do you know the type of batteries you have (gel/lead acid/agm) and how old they are?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[torbet]

They are gel batteries and I bought them about three years ago in Germany when I replaced the originals after 12+ years.

The output voltage is my worry too. I'll check it this weekend. If it is not giving me 14v, then I will get back in touch with the company that sold it too me (although as I said, I already sent it back and they told me that they had tested it and it was fine).

Jim

 

[sidepod]

I'm not sure about the display value when on hook up. Mine reads low and builds up to full charge.

I don't see any point in a system that simply displays the output of the charger?
What you need to see is the state of the battery, which is what it does.

The "first and last" bar on the charge graph is bizarre. Thats what mine does. I'm not sure what it's trying to tell us.

I think the biggest physical battery size the compartment can accommodate is two x 80Ah.

S.

ps - Check us lot out, a double page thread Don't get many of those in Westyworld, unless its about Dans breakdowns !!

 

[TwentyOneThirtyFive]

ps - Check us lot out, a double page thread Don't get many of those in Westyworld, unless its about Dans breakdowns !!

I do my best for the cause

 

[2into1]

Just to throw in my experience, and a recent change noted after solar panel wired-in.

On hook up, I always got the 'plug' straight away and show 14.4v.
It only charges the leisure battery, not the main (well, the main battery doesn't budge from 12.5ish when I plug in).

1999, Charger looks original and nothing in the paperwork to suggest its been changed.


I've just had my first trip out after fitting a solar panel. I noticed that in the day (not night), the display was changing every 3 seconds or so, alternating between the usual display as described above, and then looking as it it wasn't plugged-in, then back again to normal. Once darkness arrived, it was back to normal, so it is clearly the solar panel causing it to alternate.

I don't know if the alternating display is anything to worry about. I'll have to try a few days without hook-up once I don't need the fan heater.

 

[vw_liz]

I'm not sure about the display value when on hook up. Mine reads low and builds up to full charge.

I don't see any point in a system that simply displays the output of the charger?
What you need to see is the state of the battery, which is what it does.

My understanding is It is always displaying the battery voltage but as soon as a charger is connected the voltage measured at the battery will be at the level of the output from the charger. So effectively it will be displaying the charger output.
As you said earlier, when the engine is running you should see ~14v which is the output of the alternator and as soon as the engine is stopped the display should change to the "true" battery voltage. Would be the same with the charger.

The "first and last" bar on the charge graph is bizarre. Thats what mine does. I'm not sure what it's trying to tell us.

From having a look at the manual it seems that when you see the first and last bars it is telling you that nothing is on or draining the leisure batteries. When you turn something on the display senses the current flow via the shunt resistor (n162) and then does some fancy calculations to work the estimated battery capacity. It will then display the capacity as bars with each representing 10% of the total capacity. The manual says that it take 5 minutes after turning something on to do this.

ps - Check us lot out, a double page thread Don't get many of those in Westyworld, unless its about Dans breakdowns !!

Lol - sorry to hear about your latest troubles Dan, hope it gets sorted soon!

The output voltage is my worry too. I'll check it this weekend. If it is not giving me 14v, then I will get back in touch with the company that sold it too me (although as I said, I already sent it back and they told me that they had tested it and it was fine).

Make sure you run all the charger tests to rule out things like a faulty temp sensor first before getting back the company.

Just to throw in my experience, and a recent change noted after solar panel wired-in.

On hook up, I always got the 'plug' straight away and show 14.4v.
It only charges the leisure battery, not the main (well, the main battery doesn't budge from 12.5ish when I plug in).

1999, Charger looks original and nothing in the paperwork to suggest its been changed.


I've just had my first trip out after fitting a solar panel. I noticed that in the day (not night), the display was changing every 3 seconds or so, alternating between the usual display as described above, and then looking as it it wasn't plugged-in, then back again to normal. Once darkness arrived, it was back to normal, so it is clearly the solar panel causing it to alternate.

I don't know if the alternating display is anything to worry about. I'll have to try a few days without hook-up once I don't need the fan heater.

That's interesting, I also have a solar panel but I haven't been on hookup with it yet.

How is your panel wired up? Mine goes from the panel to a regulator in the rear cupboard (the one with the speakers) and from there directly to the batteries. Must admit I have been thinking about installing some sort of split charge relay or even just a manual switch so that I won't be in the situation of mains hookup/alternator and the solar panel trying the charge at the same time. Not sure it would really cause a problem but I like the idea on them being separate rather than running parallel.

At a guess (and if yours is wired like mine) I would say that your problem could be that the charger is getting confused by the panel trying to charge at the same time and keeps switching on/off?

Cheers,

Jim

 

[sidepod]

Jim,

I think we need to award you a couple of "bobble hat" icons
for your immense battery charging knowledge.

S.

 

[2into1]

How is your panel wired up? Mine goes from the panel to a regulator in the rear cupboard (the one with the speakers) and from there directly to the batteries.

Yes, that's how mine is done and was how the instructions indicated it should be done.

I think you may be right that charger is switching (cycling) itself on and off. My guess is that it is reading the battery voltage (because of the active panel) at say 15v, so it thinks it is not required, although I'm not sure why then it comes back on a few seconds later.

 

[torbet]

OK, Update 1.

Despite being plugged in for days, the batteries are still reading 12.8v.

The back is all stripped out and I'm having fun! I'm following the fault finding list from Jim (or since it's Sat, should I call you Liz!).

Step 1. OK, actual battery reading is 12.6 for each battery. When I disconnect the batteries, the control panel reads 12.8 and lights work, so I'm assuming the 240v supply is good.

Step 2. With the mains plugged in, I measured the output of the charger and, no surprises, it is only 12.8v.

I'll carry on with the checklist, then have a crack at the temp sensor.....

 

[torbet]

OK, Update 2. It's not good news

Step 3 showed the charging voltage as 12.6. No surprises. But it should be 14v, so the output of the charger is definitely the problem. But what could be causing it???

Step 4 gave me nothing. No reading at all going to the control panel. Now that could be why I am not getting the prongs. It might also be how it is supposed to be on a later model charger, and it only sends the current when the batteries are charged.

Step 5 gives me the same 12.6v.

And step 6 does the same which indicates that it is not a problem with the temp sensor.

I took it apart and it was giving me 700 Ohms which dropped rapidly sat in my palm, so I guess that 500Ohms at 20*C is probably spot on.

The batteries are definitely charging as they were almost flat who I put them in, and now sit at 12.6v unplugged from the mains. I may leave them off the charger for a few days to see if they go flat again. Although I'm not sure if that means they were not fully charged or are not holding a charge.

Not sure what the next step is. Any suggestions?