Disability hoist drains leisure batteries

[ClaudeVanJan]

As the originator of this theory I must just say that I think it has been discredited by your measurements and observations. Here's where I think you are at:

Problem	Likely cause	Solution(s)
Aft battery flat (initially)	Blown cube fuse	Charge battery using a good current and voltage limiting charger, then replace the cube fuse. See @WelshGas' post for details.
Control panel fails to indicate blown cube fuse.	Miswiring of the IBS sensor	Rewire IBS sensor as indicated. Install battery monitor.
Hoist does not work with cube fuse blown.	Hoist attached to battery behind cube fuse.	Move hoist wire to point C on the photograph.
Aft battery still does not work after cube fuse replacement	Failure to charge aft battery before replacing cube fuse will cause cube fuse to blow repeatedly. Battery at 5V differential will draw around it's CCA rating. Around 800A.	Perform procedure as indicated. Charging battery to 80% at C/10 will take at least 12 hours.

Great...thanks for the table of solutions....I plan to order this battery charger today https://www.tayna.co.uk/battery-chargers/ctek/mxs10/. It has a charge rate of 10A and was the one Tayna guy recommended.

 

[yossarian]

Great...thanks for the table of solutions....I plan to order this battery charger today https://www.tayna.co.uk/battery-chargers/ctek/mxs10/. It has a charge rate of 10A and was the one Tayna guy recommended.

These are good, will do the job a little slower and available from the same place, quite a bit cheaper.

Optimate 6 AmpMatic 12V 5A Battery Charger & Optimiser

The Optimate 6 AmpMatic 12V 5A Battery Charger & Optimiser is from the Optimate Battery Chargers range of Battery Chargers and Testers. We aim to sell all of our products at the LOWEST PRICES in the UK and offer nationwide next day delivery.

www.tayna.co.uk

I own 4 of these and a smaller version.

 

[yossarian]

Here's the ctek equivalent, even better price. I'd go for this unless you have another use for your charger that demands something bigger.

CTEK MXS 5.0 12V Charger and Conditioner MULTI XS 5.0 (56-975) MXS5

CTEK MXS 5.0 12V Charger and Conditioner MULTI XS 5.0 (56-975) The MXS 5.0 is a charger that offers state of the art technology that was previously only found in CTEK's professional product range. The charger can solve a broad range of battery-related problems and is the perfect charger for...

www.tayna.co.uk

When trying to recover batteries slower is usually better. If you are charging regularly for some reason then a higher charge rate might suit you. The optimate 6 is suitable for up to 200Ah batteries.

The mxs5 looks ideal, 160Ah for maintenance does AGM and temp compensated. And pretty cheap.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Can recommend below. Had one for years used for car, van & mower!:

https://www.rayneautomotive.co.uk/product-page/8a-intelligent-mains-leisure-battery-charger-240v-12v-dc

 

[AlisonF]

Here's the ctek equivalent, even better price. I'd go for this unless you have another use for your charger that demands something bigger.

CTEK MXS 5.0 12V Charger and Conditioner MULTI XS 5.0 (56-975) MXS5

CTEK MXS 5.0 12V Charger and Conditioner MULTI XS 5.0 (56-975) The MXS 5.0 is a charger that offers state of the art technology that was previously only found in CTEK's professional product range. The charger can solve a broad range of battery-related problems and is the perfect charger for...

www.tayna.co.uk

When trying to recover batteries slower is usually better. If you are charging regularly for some reason then a higher charge rate might suit you. The optimate 6 is suitable for up to 200Ah batteries.

The mxs5 looks ideal, 160Ah for maintenance does AGM and temp compensated. And pretty cheap.

View attachment 97238

I have this one and very pleased with it.

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

I have this one and very pleased with it.

Morning....the sun is up and so is the battery voltage....yey !!
Took your advice (thanks) and went for the MXS5.0
I started with 6.2v and this morning have 12.67v
Timings for all the MXS 5 to complete each phase were as follows. ( I only did hourly checks so timings might not be totally spot on)
Phase 1 Desulphation took 1hr
Phase 2 Soft Start took 7hrs
Phase 3 Bulk took 6hrs
Phases 4 through to 6 took a further 5 hours

I can't connect anything yet until I get a cube fuse so will update when I do.

In the meantime The Ctek has a eyelet Comfort Indicator monitor .....are they an effective way to monitor battery health at a glance ?

Finally for now....once the hoist has been reconnected how would I go about measuring what it is pulling out of the battery when it is in use....bearing in mind I've just about mastered the automatic Multimeter ...ha ha.

Thanks so much for getting me this far....every day is a school day as they say...

 

[WelshGas]

Morning....the sun is up and so is the battery voltage....yey !!
Took your advice (thanks) and went for the MXS5.0
I started with 6.2v and this morning have 12.67v
Timings for all the MXS 5 to complete each phase were as follows. ( I only did hourly checks so timings might not be totally spot on)
Phase 1 Desulphation took 1hr
Phase 2 Soft Start took 7hrs
Phase 3 Bulk took 6hrs
Phases 4 through to 6 took a further 5 hours

I can't connect anything yet until I get a cube fuse so will update when I do.

In the meantime The Ctek has a eyelet Comfort Indicator monitor .....are they an effective way to monitor battery health at a glance ?

Finally for now....once the hoist has been reconnected how would I go about measuring what it is pulling out of the battery when it is in use....bearing in mind I've just about mastered the automatic Multimeter ...ha ha.

Thanks so much for getting me this far....every day is a school day as they say...

Once everything is connected up as the hoist is powered by the leisure batteries then the Control panel will show the voltage of the parallel wired leisure batteries and the current drain in amps.

The Leisure Batteries are 2 x 75amp 12 v batteries. Wired in parallel gives you the equivilent of 1 x 150amp 12v battery.

When the hoist is reconnected it would be a good idea to connect above the cube fuse, with the red +tve battery lead. Then , if the cube fuse fails again the hoist will continue working.

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

Once everything is connected up as the hoist is powered by the leisure batteries then the Control panel will show the voltage of the parallel wired leisure batteries and the current drain in amps.

The Leisure Batteries are 2 x 75amp 12 v batteries. Wired in parallel gives you the equivilent of 1 x 150amp 12v battery.

When the hoist is reconnected it would be a good idea to connect above the cube fuse, with the red +tve battery lead. Then , if the cube fuse fails again the hoist will continue working.

Thanks....I'll check the connections once the fuse arrives....from my previous pics I had 2 smaller gauge red cables going to the + terminal.
The one with the black tape at the eyelet looks like it was connected above the cube fuse but the other with the blue tape on it is connected to the 10mm clamp nut.....which would be below the fuse I think.
So should both of those cables be connected above the fuse ...sorry for the dumb question but I just want to be sure I'm understanding correctly....cheers

 

[yossarian]

In the meantime The Ctek has a eyelet Comfort Indicator monitor .....are they an effective way to monitor battery health at a glance ?

This looks useful. You could use it to indicate if there's a problem with the cube fuse. Connection: battery positive (you could use the clamp) and chassis negative ideally, and then place it somewhere convenient. People sometimes use the battery hold down clamp as a chassis negative, you might need to fit a bigger ring terminal. I had a look on the Ctek website and can't really see what it's quiescent current (parasitic drain) is but you could always fit a push button in series with the device if this turns out to be a problem in future. Or if the LEDs are annoying. Fitting it directly to the negative clamp might be ok but would have some affect on the battery sensor.

Usage: If you see a red indicator have a look at the voltage on the main control panel. If the control panel says that the battery is 12.4V + the cube fuse has probably blown. You might get a red when operating your hoist and if that stops it also indicates probably the fuse blown.

Finally for now....once the hoist has been reconnected how would I go about measuring what it is pulling out of the battery when it is in use....bearing in mind I've just about mastered the automatic Multimeter ...ha ha.

The VW control panel will show you amps in and out of your batteries. Measuring amps with a multimeter is not a great idea if you're not a professional. I recommend you just consider the 'A' receptacle of your multimeter out of bounds.

So should both of those cables be connected above the fuse ...sorry for the dumb question but I just want to be sure I'm understanding correctly....cheers

Most likely, yes. Not sure why there are two wires but connecting them to the main bus with multiple sources seems like a better idea.


Finally, keep your battery on the charger as long as is convenient. Sulphates will continue to fall off and dissolve from the plates very slowly improving its health.

 

[yossarian]

One more thing -- the battery sensor won't know that you've charged your battery because most likely you connected that charger directly to the battery negative. This will give you annoying problems with the control panel and things like the heater and fridge might not work properly.

To reset the sensor unplug the two pin plug and plug it back in again. If you look at the plug from the side (in good light) the release mechanism should be obvious. It's weatherproof so tight and needs a little wiggling.

 

[WelshGas]

Thanks....I'll check the connections once the fuse arrives....from my previous pics I had 2 smaller gauge red cables going to the + terminal.
The one with the black tape at the eyelet looks like it was connected above the cube fuse but the other with the blue tape on it is connected to the 10mm clamp nut.....which would be below the fuse I think.
So should both of those cables be connected above the fuse ...sorry for the dumb question but I just want to be sure I'm understanding correctly....cheers

View attachment 97490

The red wire with blue tape is probably for the hoist so ideally should be moved to above the Cube Fuse. It may need the connector changed.
Then as @yossarian said to reset the central Control Panel battery status.

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

One more thing -- the battery sensor won't know that you've charged your battery because most likely you connected that charger directly to the battery negative. This will give you annoying problems with the control panel and things like the heater and fridge might not work properly.

To reset the sensor unplug the two pin plug and plug it back in again. If you look at the plug from the side (in good light) the release mechanism should be obvious. It's weatherproof so tight and needs a little wiggling.

Thanks....I've still got it on charge and will take it off later this evening so I can secure the van....staying up til 3am last nite wasn't too pleasant..

I've managed to unplug the 2 pin plug so will re-attach to the sensor once I've reconnected the battery negative clamp.....unless I should do it before ....I've checked the display panel and there is no change from the 0 days on the display.

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

The red wire with blue tape is probably for the hoist so ideally should be moved to above the Cube Fuse. It may need the connector changed.
Then as @yossarian said to reset the central Control Panel battery status.

Thanks....yes you are right the eyelet connector will need to be changed to a larger diameter.

The van is going back to the dealer tomorrow so I'm tempted not to attach the hoist and let them determine if the split charger is charging both leisure batteries.
I don't have a cube fuse yet so can't connect anything anyway....or can I ??

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

This looks useful. You could use it to indicate if there's a problem with the cube fuse. Connection: battery positive (you could use the clamp) and chassis negative ideally, and then place it somewhere convenient. People sometimes use the battery hold down clamp as a chassis negative, you might need to fit a bigger ring terminal. I had a look on the Ctek website and can't really see what it's quiescent current (parasitic drain) is but you could always fit a push button in series with the device if this turns out to be a problem in future. Or if the LEDs are annoying. Fitting it directly to the negative clamp might be ok but would have some affect on the battery sensor.

Usage: If you see a red indicator have a look at the voltage on the main control panel. If the control panel says that the battery is 12.4V + the cube fuse has probably blown. You might get a red when operating your hoist and if that stops it also indicates probably the fuse blown.



The VW control panel will show you amps in and out of your batteries. Measuring amps with a multimeter is not a great idea if you're not a professional. I recommend you just consider the 'A' receptacle of your multimeter out of bounds.



Most likely, yes. Not sure why there are two wires but connecting them to the main bus with multiple sources seems like a better idea.


Finally, keep your battery on the charger as long as is convenient. Sulphates will continue to fall off and dissolve from the plates very slowly improving its health.

Thanks....its been on Cetk Phase 7 (Float they call it )...its been through the Recond phase today also

 

[AlisonF]

@ClaudeVanJan I’m so sorry you are going through this. Hopefully with the support from @yossarian and others you will get sorted and be able to enjoy you Cali.
I would also ask that you please keep the forum updated.

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

@ClaudeVanJan I’m so sorry you are going through this. Hopefully with the support from @yossarian and others you will get sorted and be able to enjoy you Cali.
I would also ask that you please keep the forum updated.

Thanks Alison....yest the support has been great and I really feel that with the help of yossarian, welshgas and others I'm getting closer to the solution.
I try to update each day as I follow up on the daily post advice and look forward to being able to say it's all sorted....Grateful doesn't begin to describe it so huge thanks to forum members .....I can see they do like a challenge !!

 

[WelshGas]

Thanks....yes you are right the eyelet connector will need to be changed to a larger diameter.

The van is going back to the dealer tomorrow so I'm tempted not to attach the hoist and let them determine if the split charger is charging both leisure batteries.
I don't have a cube fuse yet so can't connect anything anyway....or can I ??

You could reconnect the Hoist supply, above the blown cube fuse. The hoist would then be supplied via the front leisure battery.

Can‘t the Dealership supply a replacement Cube Fuse?

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

You could reconnect the Hoist supply, above the blown cube fuse. The hoist would then be supplied via the front leisure battery.

Can‘t the Dealership supply a replacement Cube Fuse?

Cheers WelshGas...I'll get it all connected back up in the morning , check the 2 battery readings and the display and then head off to dealer to 'ask' for replacement \Cube Fuse.....I've got one on order from 12volt planet but it won't be here before I set off .....I'll keep you posted

 

[flying banana]

Why don't you just use a ramp?

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

Why don't you just use a ramp?

it was not really a viable option

ramp length would need to be too long​

ramp would need to fold and be stored in van taking up too much space​

​

initially we did look carefully at this option but it just wasn't practical for the end user....might work for some users but not in this particular case

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

Hi everyone ...an update for you all..
Van has been at dealers for 2 days undergoing diagnosis checks.
I connected the hoist back up prior to taking it in so I could understand what the 'draw' might be when it is in use.....around 1A
I provided them with full details of the state of both leisure batteries both (fully charged) and informed them that the 75A cube fuse was blown
Today they rang me to say that there is a 100A fuse that has also blown
They say likely cause is the hoist and repair not covered under warranty.
I've challenged them to provide me with their detailed assessment of how a hoist with 10A inline fuses still intact can cause both a 100 &75 A fuse to blow.
They said the rear leisure battery needs to be replaced despite it reading as fully charged by the volt meter and also the Ctek charger.
I've also said to them that hoists like these are designed to be fitted to cars/vans for the benefit of disabled users....tens of thousands of them !!
I've asked VW to confirm if anyone fitting a hoist to a vehicle immediately invalidates the vehicle warranty.....a bit of a disability rights issue here if it does.
Upshot of my challenges is that the dealer have raised this issue as a 'technical' question to the manufacturing team so I await the response.
In the meantime I'll speak to AutoChair to try to get a hold of their tech wiring diagrams.
...and so it goes on ..

 

[Amarillo]

Hi everyone ...an update for you all..
Van has been at dealers for 2 days undergoing diagnosis checks.
I connected the hoist back up prior to taking it in so I could understand what the 'draw' might be when it is in use.....around 1A
I provided them with full details of the state of both leisure batteries both (fully charged) and informed them that the 75A cube fuse was blown
Today they rang me to say that there is a 100A fuse that has also blown
They say likely cause is the hoist and repair not covered under warranty.
I've challenged them to provide me with their detailed assessment of how a hoist with 10A inline fuses still intact can cause both a 100 &75 A fuse to blow.
They said the rear leisure battery needs to be replaced despite it reading as fully charged by the volt meter and also the Ctek charger.
I've also said to them that hoists like these are designed to be fitted to cars/vans for the benefit of disabled users....tens of thousands of them !!
I've asked VW to confirm if anyone fitting a hoist to a vehicle immediately invalidates the vehicle warranty.....a bit of a disability rights issue here if it does.
Upshot of my challenges is that the dealer have raised this issue as a 'technical' question to the manufacturing team so I await the response.
In the meantime I'll speak to AutoChair to try to get a hold of their tech wiring diagrams.
...and so it goes on ..

What a saga!

 

[WelshGas]

Hi everyone ...an update for you all..
Van has been at dealers for 2 days undergoing diagnosis checks.
I connected the hoist back up prior to taking it in so I could understand what the 'draw' might be when it is in use.....around 1A
I provided them with full details of the state of both leisure batteries both (fully charged) and informed them that the 75A cube fuse was blown
Today they rang me to say that there is a 100A fuse that has also blown
They say likely cause is the hoist and repair not covered under warranty.
I've challenged them to provide me with their detailed assessment of how a hoist with 10A inline fuses still intact can cause both a 100 &75 A fuse to blow.
They said the rear leisure battery needs to be replaced despite it reading as fully charged by the volt meter and also the Ctek charger.
I've also said to them that hoists like these are designed to be fitted to cars/vans for the benefit of disabled users....tens of thousands of them !!
I've asked VW to confirm if anyone fitting a hoist to a vehicle immediately invalidates the vehicle warranty.....a bit of a disability rights issue here if it does.
Upshot of my challenges is that the dealer have raised this issue as a 'technical' question to the manufacturing team so I await the response.
In the meantime I'll speak to AutoChair to try to get a hold of their tech wiring diagrams.
...and so it goes on ..

There is a 100amp fuse located in a bank of fuses under the engine battery. I could be wrong but I believe if that fuse blows charging of the engine and leisure batteries via the split charge relay ceases.
Also on the T5.1 there is a brown 80amp fuse under the front passenger seat RHD and if that blows then the leisure batteries are no longer charged via the split charge relay.

I don't believe this Dealership know what they are doing.

 

[ClaudeVanJan]

There is a 100amp fuse located in a bank of fuses under the engine battery. I could be wrong but I believe if that fuse blows charging of the engine and leisure batteries via the split charge relay ceases.
Also on the T5.1 there is a brown 80amp fuse under the front passenger seat RHD and if that blows then the leisure batteries are no longer charged via the split charge relay.

I don't believe this Dealership know what they are doing.

Hopefully the tech guys at factory will have some answers....provided the dealer has asked the right questions.
I had to correct one of their assumptions today as to why they thought the hoist would pull massive amounts of power.
They said a hoist that was lifting a chair and a person sitting in that chair would require something more than the leisure batteries could provide.....
I pointed out that these hoists only ever lift the chair and they cannot ever lift both just by the very nature of the strapping lift attachment ....they are designed for upto 200kg...ours is only around 95kg so well within the capabilities of this particular model.

 

[WelshGas]

Hopefully the tech guys at factory will have some answers....provided the dealer has asked the right questions.
I had to correct one of their assumptions today as to why they thought the hoist would pull massive amounts of power.
They said a hoist that was lifting a chair and a person sitting in that chair would require something more than the leisure batteries could provide.....
I pointed out that these hoists only ever lift the chair and they cannot ever lift both just by the very nature of the strapping lift attachment ....they are designed for upto 200kg...ours is only around 95kg so well within the capabilities of this particular model.

Also they are widely fitted to numerous new vehicles under the Mobility scheme, without as far as I can see, any voiding of the manufacturers warranty.

In fact, with your system, if it is pulling less than 10 amps then it could have been wired to a 12v socket plug and use the boot 12v socket. I wonder what the Dealership would have said then. Those sockets are fused at 20 amps on the T6.1 so I gather.