Elevating Roof Issue - oil low

[darrenjane]

Hi
I have an issue with my roof in that when I raise it the driver side is much slower and the roof twists as It lifts. Once the passenger side is fully up then it continues and raises the drivers side fully. Roof appears to stay up and lowers correctly.
Got access to the pump and the pump oil levels appear low. Well below the min mark when the roof is up and just below the min mark when roof is down. No sign of any leaks anywhere. So I think my next plan is to top up the pump reservoir using the little access screw on the top. Assume this needs to be down with the roof down to try and get the oil range between the min and max at all roof positions. I don't want to risk overfilling. Is there a bleeding procedure if required?

Does anyone have details of the specific oil to use? I have some Febi 06162 which appears to be central hydraulic power steering oil. Am I ok to use this?

Have attached photos of oil levels when roof up and down.

Hoping once topped up it may solve the issue.
TIA for any thoughts/ advice?

 

[TripleBee]

As you can see, the hydraulic fluid is pink. I would not mix it with random power steering fluid.
The only drawback is: it costs over €100 per liter.

Have you checked at the left and right ram? Is there any mark in the gutters?

 

[SimonB]

Hi
I have an issue with my roof in that when I raise it the driver side is much slower and the roof twists as It lifts. Once the passenger side is fully up then it continues and raises the drivers side fully. Roof appears to stay up and lowers correctly.
Got access to the pump and the pump oil levels appear low. Well below the min mark when the roof is up and just below the min mark when roof is down. No sign of any leaks anywhere. So I think my next plan is to top up the pump reservoir using the little access screw on the top. Assume this needs to be down with the roof down to try and get the oil range between the min and max at all roof positions. I don't want to risk overfilling. Is there a bleeding procedure if required?

Does anyone have details of the specific oil to use? I have some Febi 06162 which appears to be central hydraulic power steering oil. Am I ok to use this?

Have attached photos of oil levels when roof up and down.

Hoping once topped up it may solve the issue.
TIA for any thoughts/ advice?

View attachment 57990

View attachment 57991

There are no details about your vehicle. How old is your California, is it still in warranty or not. If it is try getting it done by your dealer as there must be a leak somewhere for the level to drop.

 

[flying banana]

i think bleeding is done similar to bleeding a power steering system where you just go lock to lock a few times with the cap off ? so roof up/down fully a few times should get the air out but never done it

 

[darrenjane]

Hi - it's a 2011, so well outside of warranty. It did have the roof corrosion repair done last early last year (for the 2nd time). Having never checked the level previously I don't know that it has dropped, only that the current level looks low.

I have checked both rams and there are no marks or visible leaks/ damage. I might try to bleed by opening the cap and raising/ lowering the roof a few times.

I'm struggling to understand how the fluid would favour one ram over the other if its a balanced system?

 

[SimonB]

I seem to remember seeing a thread a long time ago that had the roof opening unevenly. It was found to be that one ram was sticking in the channel it sits in and not going up as fast as the other side. Our roof did it a few times after we had the Cali for a month or two. It came up unevenly but someone advised to monitor it and after we had put the roof up and down a number of times it sorted itself out. Maybe just check the slider channel the the bottom end of the ram runs along and just make sure there is no roughness there at all.

 

[westfalia]

It did have the roof corrosion repair done last early last year

It could be that they didn't fill it up correctly.

As in, fill up to the line and put the roof up and down a few times
to clear the air in the system.

I would only use the correct oil which is this.

And fill it up with one of these.

 

[darrenjane]

Thank you for the comments/ advice. A few things to check and try over the weekend.

Westfalia - any ideas where I may be able to source some of this hyd oil?

 

[v-tec]

TPS - Home page

Your best source of Genuine Parts for all VW, Audi, Skoda and SEAT vehicles. Part of the Volkswagen Group UK.

tps.trade

 

[westfalia]

Westfalia - any ideas where I may be able to source some of this hyd oil?

I got mine from VW.

 

[darrenjane]

Hello
Still having issues, so wondered if anyone had any bright ideas?
I sourced the correct VW fluid and topped up the reservoir to the max. I have raised and lowered the roof many times but it continues to favour the left side. There is enough force to release the closed "lock" but after that there seems to be no force from the hydraulic ram on the right side. Even when I physically lift the right side so there is minimal load on the ram it still puts all the lift on the left side ram.

I have opened and closed the roof many times to try and bleed out any air, by having the reservoir cap slightly open. I've tried the vehicle on the flat and on a slope with front higher and rear higher to see if this would help, but doesn't affect the performance of the rams. On closing the roof it does appear to release a small amount of air from the reservoir but even after all the attempts the fluid level has hardly dropped and is still between the min/ max limits. I even tried the emergency release using the screw on the pump, but no difference.

I was thinking that by manually lifting the roof it should make this ram operate with ease, unless there is a air lock - if this is possible? Thinking my next step will be to replace the left ram, but is an expensive option to try when I'm still not sure this is the cause.

Any thoughts/ advice on what else I could try?
Thanks
Darren

 

[westfalia]

Hello
Still having issues, so wondered if anyone had any bright ideas?
I sourced the correct VW fluid and topped up the reservoir to the max. I have raised and lowered the roof many times but it continues to favour the left side. There is enough force to release the closed "lock" but after that there seems to be no force from the hydraulic ram on the right side. Even when I physically lift the right side so there is minimal load on the ram it still puts all the lift on the left side ram.

I have opened and closed the roof many times to try and bleed out any air, by having the reservoir cap slightly open. I've tried the vehicle on the flat and on a slope with front higher and rear higher to see if this would help, but doesn't affect the performance of the rams. On closing the roof it does appear to release a small amount of air from the reservoir but even after all the attempts the fluid level has hardly dropped and is still between the min/ max limits. I even tried the emergency release using the screw on the pump, but no difference.

I was thinking that by manually lifting the roof it should make this ram operate with ease, unless there is a air lock - if this is possible? Thinking my next step will be to replace the left ram, but is an expensive option to try when I'm still not sure this is the cause.

Any thoughts/ advice on what else I could try?
Thanks
Darren

I think @TripleBee was in the same boat as you.

He replaced one side but it didn't seem to fix the problem.
I have f#ked about with mine for years and the next time i have a problem
i am going to find an independent hydraulic specialist and pick their brains.

One thing for sure is that it won't be Vw prices.
He will be along shortly to shed a bit of light.

 

[TripleBee]

1: Do you see any external leakage? Yes: solve this problem. No: continue to question 2.
2: Does your pump sound like this. (Exactly the same noise, especially on the end when the roof is up and the pump starts its internal bleading)

Yes: you might have an internal leak in a ram. No: do you hear airy noises? I had that and it turned out to be the pump itself.

And you think replacing a ram is an expensive repair? Try to get a pump installed.

Parts alone: ram = +/- € 300 at VW. Pump = € 1400, and a whole lot more work than the ram.

Thanks @westfalia for the heads up.

 

[v-tec]

What a PITA Sounds like you have almost exhausted all Avenues apart from trying parts, I’ve not had 1st hand experience with the Cali roof hydraulics but have worked with plane hydraulics, The roof is lifted by hydraulics and lowered by hydraulic, it doesn’t lower by gravity (my point there is don’t go trying to pull the roof up) I would imagine there are separate ports at the pump for each ram Providing there’s no damage to the pipe work,(internal or external) and providing the roof hinge pivots are all free to move (I do spray lube mine each year) it only leaves pump or ram, I’m not sure if the ram’s are handed without checking, if they aren’t I would be swapping them left to right, and see if the fault moves to the other side, Like I said I’m not a Cali roof expert, but hydraulics are hydraulics no mater what they are fitted to.
I think I did read a thread on here some time ago about changing the rams,

 

[westfalia]

What a PITA Sounds like you have almost exhausted all Avenues apart from trying parts, I’ve not had 1st hand experience with the Cali roof hydraulics but have worked with plane hydraulics, The roof is lifted by hydraulics and lowered by hydraulic, it doesn’t lower by gravity (my point there is don’t go trying to pull the roof up) I would imagine there are separate ports at the pump for each ram Providing there’s no damage to the pipe work,(internal or external) and providing the roof hinge pivots are all free to move (I do spray lube mine each year) it only leaves pump or ram, I’m not sure if the ram’s are handed without checking, if they aren’t I would be swapping them left to right, and see if the fault moves to the other side, Like I said I’m not a Cali roof expert, but hydraulics are hydraulics no mater what they are fitted to.
I think I did read a thread on here some time ago about changing the rams,

What are your thoughts on the inside seals on the ram leaking.

 

[TripleBee]

The rams are stated with left and right, but they are both just the same. I have changed my left ram (because the roof sagged on the left side) but that didn't work out. Then I changed the pump, and that seemed to have solved the problem. Later I changed the right ram with the left ram I took out the first time, so now I have a left ram on the right side. Works the same. A ram is just a thing with an oil in/outlet for pushing, and another in/outlet for pulling. The pump pushes oil on one side, and receives oil from the other side, in reverse, the pump pushes oil to the other side, and receives oil from the one side.

 

[v-tec]

What are your thoughts on the inside seals on the ram leaking.

That’s quite possible, There could be cavitation going on in the lazy ram,Dose the defective ram sound noisy while lifting the roof

 

[darrenjane]

Thanks for all the replies and further explanations into how the system works - all really useful.
No sign of any external leakage and yes the pump does make a similar noise when it's getting towards the fully opened. Once the left side is fully up the right side is generally quite a bit lower, and when the right side then start to lift, the tone of the pump motor changes and it sounds like it's working really hard, an even lower tone than in the video clip. Sometimes it manages to fully lift the right side but other times it stops and you have to release and press the open button again for it to complete.

I'm thinking I might try to prop the roof open and then disconnect both rams for the roof arms and see if they will both fully function without any loading. I guess the next step then would be to swap them over and see if this highlights a possible fault with one ram as suggested.

Seems strange that the ram appears to have adequate force to lift once the other ram is fully extended. I assume it then receives the full pressure. Would it do this if it has air within it or the internal seal was leaking.

There doesn't appear to be any noise coming from within the "lazy" ram. I'm not totally sure what cavitation is?

 

[flying banana]

Thanks for all the replies and further explanations into how the system works - all really useful.
No sign of any external leakage and yes the pump does make a similar noise when it's getting towards the fully opened. Once the left side is fully up the right side is generally quite a bit lower, and when the right side then start to lift, the tone of the pump motor changes and it sounds like it's working really hard, an even lower tone than in the video clip. Sometimes it manages to fully lift the right side but other times it stops and you have to release and press the open button again for it to complete.

I'm thinking I might try to prop the roof open and then disconnect both rams for the roof arms and see if they will both fully function without any loading. I guess the next step then would be to swap them over and see if this highlights a possible fault with one ram as suggested.

Seems strange that the ram appears to have adequate force to lift once the other ram is fully extended. I assume it then receives the full pressure. Would it do this if it has air within it or the internal seal was leaking.

There doesn't appear to be any noise coming from within the "lazy" ram. I'm not totally sure what cavitation is?

cavitation is caused when a partial vacuum causes bubbles to form in the oil, usually happens in pumps and motors rather than rams. a good example is bubbles coming from nowhere on a ships propeller. this is a phenomenon where the spinning prop causes the water to boil on the surface of the blade due it reducing pressure as it spins. the bubbles can pop and damage the blade surface. ie cavitate it. low oil can cause a cavitation issue where air bubbles damage the pump impeller as it spins. your best option is swapping the rams here or can you swap the pipes around at the pump end if you have access to it ? I saw a thread somewhere telling which pipe did what on the pump. ie lift lower. left/right.

 

[v-tec]

Ah yes, sorry talking workshop language, basically air in a liquid caused by movement is the simple term,
I think if you feel confident then checking/swapping the rams is the best idea, Get the roof right up and then prop it up inside , just spread the load and support it as far forward as possible,swapping the pipes over at the pump is definitely worth looking into if there is enough free pipe,

 

[v-tec]

cavitation is caused when a partial vacuum causes bubbles to form in the oil, usually happens in pumps and motors rather than rams. a good example is bubbles coming from nowhere on a ships propeller. this is a phenomenon where the spinning prop causes the water to boil on the surface of the blade due it reducing pressure as it spins. the bubbles can pop and damage the blade surface. ie cavitate it. low oil can cause a cavitation issue where air bubbles damage the pump impeller as it spins. your best option is swapping the rams here or can you swap the pipes around at the pump end if you have access to it ? I saw a thread somewhere telling which pipe did what on the pump. ie lift lower. left/right.

Sorry, you beat me to it

 

[westfalia]

All good intel.

We do really need to get to the bottom of this.

 

[v-tec]

All good intel.

We do really need to get to the bottom of this.

Yes we need to see this one through,

 

[TripleBee]

@darrenjane
You are not in the possibility to make some videoclips? One like mine, with the noise of the pump. And one from the outside, so we can see what is happening?

 

[darrenjane]

OK, so I now have a basic understanding of cavitation, thanks.
When I close the roof, when it reaches it's closed position the pump seems to run on a for while and there is a louder "bubbling" noise and the oil reservoir is filled with what appears to be cloudy/ bubbles and it fills almost to the top as it expands. It only lasts a couple of seconds until it stops and then the oil clears. I guess this is just oil returning to the reservoir under pressure rather than cavitation air bubbles?

Plan for tomorrow is to swap pipes at the pump if I can and see what effect this has. I'll update on the findings.
Thanks again