Elevating Roof Issue - oil low

[darrenjane]

I'll try and post some video clips tomorrow of what's going on....

 

[TripleBee]

May be interesting for you?

As promised: Changing the electrohydraulic roof pump!

So as I promised last year, I wanted to keep you updated about changing the electrohydraulic roof pump. Therefore we need: a pump, some guts, a bit of spare time, and some helping hands. Up to now I only have the pump and the headlining taken off. First we take off the A-pillar handles...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

 

[darrenjane]

Wow thanks that's really useful and looks very familiar.
Was the bleeding of the system fairly easy once you'd installed the new pump? I see you mentioned propping the roof and lowering/ raising the roof - did this expel the air through the loosened reservoir nut?

 

[TripleBee]

I forgot to open the nut. Just opened and closed the roof a couple of times. The air in the system was replaced by the oil, and the oil by air, so nothing much would have happened.

 

[darrenjane]

Update
This morning I swapped the lines over at the pump and the problem has now swapped sides (exactly the same issue). At least that confirms that both rams are ok and the issue is at the pump. I guess next stop is to replace the pump....

 

[v-tec]

Update
This morning I swapped the lines over at the pump and the problem has now swapped sides (exactly the same issue). At least that confirms that both rams are ok and the issue is at the pump. I guess next stop is to replace the pump....

Well done that’s a result, can you take some pictures of the pump connections

 

[TripleBee]

Well done that’s a result, can you take some pictures of the pump connections

You have them in this thread. The both lines with the plastics in the bend are for the right ram. And the both top connections (near the motor) are the push side to open the roof. The two other connections are the return, or the pull side (closing the roof). It's #17 in that thread.

As promised: Changing the electrohydraulic roof pump!

So as I promised last year, I wanted to keep you updated about changing the electrohydraulic roof pump. Therefore we need: a pump, some guts, a bit of spare time, and some helping hands. Up to now I only have the pump and the headlining taken off. First we take off the A-pillar handles...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

 

[v-tec]

You have them in this thread. The both lines with the plastics in the bend are for the right ram. And the both top connections (near the motor) are the push side to open the roof. The two other connections are the return, or the pull side (closing the roof). It's #17 in that thread.

As promised: Changing the electrohydraulic roof pump!

So as I promised last year, I wanted to keep you updated about changing the electrohydraulic roof pump. Therefore we need: a pump, some guts, a bit of spare time, and some helping hands. Up to now I only have the pump and the headlining taken off. First we take off the A-pillar handles...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

Nice one,
After all this you will be the Cali roof expert,
If the new pump isn’t exchange it would be interesting to strip it down and see if you can see the problem

 

[TripleBee]

Nice one,
After all this you will be the Cali roof expert,
If the new pump isn’t exchange it would be interesting to strip it down and see if you can see the problem

I have my original pump at someone I know who works in hydraulics.
I have opened some of the screws which contain springs, and some other hydraulic stuff to make the thing work (don't know the technical English words for them), but couldn't see anything wrong at first sight. The black gunk in the reservoir (you can see in that post), is most likely some dissolved rubber from somewhere in the circuit.
That guy will open the hydraulic unit and replace all seals.

Just a question, if you work(ed) in hydraulics.

My original pump lifted and closed the roof evenly. The new pump now seems to have an interconnection between the left and right side. Is this a normal thing to do? In my video you can see, when lowering, one side closes faster than the other. If I stop closing the roof, and lift it up with my hands, you can shift the oil from the left to the right (or vice versa). And as there are (were) some members here who had probably the same issue with their new van, could it be that this is a wrong batch of pumps?
I would think there is no need for an interconnection between the left and right side. If you put 12V to the motor, both sides would get the same amount of oil (pressure), so the roof opens even. If you put -12V to the motor (there are only 2 electrical connections), the oil (pressure) should make the roof close even too.
At what happens now on mine, I would say that the left mechanism of the roof is a bit stiffer (?), so it lags while opening and closing, making the oil (pressure) shift from left to right, making the right side close faster. Just at the end, when the weight of the roof is the biggest, both sides even, and the roof closes even.

Is my question clear?

 

[v-tec]

That does sound strange,I see what you mean in your video, Because I’ve not dismantled one of those pumps or have a schematic of the pump it’s hard to tell,
I would have thought each ram would have its own supply circuit but from what you are saying it would appear not, But of course there are 4 pipes out of the pump 2 up left and right and 2 down left and right, The reason I would say 2 separate circuits is because from what I’ve read and slightly experienced on my own Cali ,when then roof sometimes drops after being up for a couple of days it’s normally on my left side that will drop a very little, just enough to crease the roof fabric, So I would say that a valve in the left circuit is allowing leak back of fluid, Normally mine does it more on hot days in the sun, This could even be a safety feature from when the oil gets hot and expands with the sun on the ram, allowing leak off (but I’m not sure)

 

[TripleBee]

My original problem was also on the left side, sagging after a day or 3 open. After some repairs on the roof, it was already after 1 night, and only got worse. If I let the roof open, I had to pump it back up several times. Last time when going to bed, just to pump it again up in the morning.
That is why I changed the pump. This problem now seems solved, although I haven't really tested it yet.
Now the roof lowers uneven, what it didn't do before changing the pump, unless there was too much oil returned to the reservoir, so I had to pump the roof up and down a few times to let the roof come down even.

But as I haven't been able to go camping yet, I can't tell you more.

Will let you know when my pump is revised.
I asked the guy to save all the old seals, so I have an idea what I need if I want to repair that pump again, when it starts to fail.
Will be a lot cheaper than buying a new pump every time.
Maybe I might be able to repair others too if I can find every single part to be replaced?

 

[darrenjane]

Thanks for all your help with this. Be interested to hear how your pump repair goes. Does seem crazy that I’ll also be looking at a hefty bill to replace the whole motor and pump when it’s potentially just a failed seal. I’ll be calling vw on Monday to source a new pump. I’ll let you know how it goes...

 

[TripleBee]

Thanks for all your help with this. Be interested to hear how your pump repair goes. Does seem crazy that I’ll also be looking at a hefty bill to replace the whole motor and pump when it’s potentially just a failed seal. I’ll be calling vw on Monday to source a new pump. I’ll let you know how it goes...

If they are the same price, it will be € 1400 for the pump alone.
And a whole lot of work. Headlining needs to be taken out. Normally all the hydraulic lines should be disconnected, and taken out with the pump, then replacing the pump, reconnect everything, hoping that the gromets through the roof spoiler are still waterproof, then the bleeding procedure, ...

I just took out the headlining, disconnected the hydraulic lines on the pump, with the roof supported by wooden blocks to keep it at rest while the system was out of pressure, then all reconnected, open and close the roof a few times until the heat protection made the roof function stop. Wait a few minutes, retry until everything worked out as it should, and apart from the wonky lowering, everything works. No more air in the reservoir while lowering the roof. A decent noise of the pump instead of the airy sound from the old one.

Good luck. I hope everything works out for you.

 

[darrenjane]

Thanks - I have all the headlining stripped out already, hoping I can just swap the 4 lines into the new pump and raise/ lower a few times as you suggest. Wasn’t planning on taking out all the lines. €1400 ouch!!!!

 

[TripleBee]

Thanks - I have all the headlining stripped out already, hoping I can just swap the 4 lines into the new pump and raise/ lower a few times as you suggest. Wasn’t planning on taking out all the lines. €1400 ouch!!!!

Be glad you don't have this problem 3 years ago.
At the time (2017?) the price was over €3000.
The next year, I asked again: €1400, until the last time I checked it.
Which is still over twice the price it's worth.
The problem is, they know, if you need it, you will buy it. As there are no aftermarket pumps (yet, as far as I know). You could only buy a second hand, and put that one in, hoping it isn't a faulty one also. But then you could at least get your pump repaired in the meantime, and replace it back.
The problem is, you can't drive or let the van stand there without the pump in it.

 

[darrenjane]

Update - have purchased a new pump and installed. Works fine now I’m relieved to say. Doesn’t sound a lot different to before but is quicker to lift the roof. Lifts and lowers evenly.

One question, I cannot find any VW workshop info re oil levels. Does the min/ max refer to roof up or roofdown position?

Basically with roof up the level is now just below min line and with the roof down the reservoir is almost full. I was concerned about it being totally full in case of expansion in hot weather, so I opened the top nut and some oil flowed out under pressure.

The new pump came filled with oil and I simply plugged my 4 lines in (with new seals). I don’t want to run it too full or too empty. Has anybody come across guidance on this?
thanks

 

[westfalia]

When the roof is up then all of the oil is in the system so that would be
normal.

Roof down and the level should be full.
How much was the new pump? Did you keep your
old one? As there is a thread on here about trying
to refurb the pumps.

 

[darrenjane]

New pump and seals was £1200 . Yes, I still have to old pump - watching with anticipation to see if anyone can get it repaired.

 

[v-tec]

£1200 is what to expect for a single purpose pump, they have a captive audience, It would be nice to find a hydraulic repair company that could successfully repair these,
Also imagine if you had to pay VW labour for it as well and I bet they would have tried to tuck you up for 2 new rams ,
That was a good thread, thanks for the detailed information.

 

[TripleBee]

No problem for you UK citizens.

VW T5 California Elevating Dak Motor & Unit 2003-2013 Pump (7H7959705A)

VW T5 California Elevating Dak Motor & Unit 2003-2013 Pump (7H7959705A)

roofmotors.co.uk

 

[TripleBee]

Also imagine if you had to pay VW labour for it as well and I bet they would have tried to tuck you up for 2 new rams ,

Don't forget, when the seals in the pump are deteriorating, the seals in the rams are too.
You could just get the pump and everything works well (for a moment). But when you get another problem with the hydraulics, you'd be very cross at VW for not changing the rams too when they were at it?
It's a knife that cuts both ways.

 

[westfalia]

Are we thinking that the problem is the seals in the
main pump then ?

 

[v-tec]

Absolutely
I work in a dealership, I know how hard it is to get the customer to agree to spending large amounts of money (understandably) cars are costly now to maintain, most customers will take the gamble and only pay for half the job, then when it all goes wrong that dealership gets bad mouthed,
A no win situation

 

[v-tec]

Are we thinking that the problem is the seals in the
main pump then ?

Probably yes, and who knows whether the pump seals are of a lower quality than those fitted to the rams, these components are all made out of house and to a certain budget, all the same pretty disappointing with a vehicle of this cost,

 

[TripleBee]

Are we thinking that the problem is the seals in the
main pump then ?

If you have another theory about the black debris in my reservoir, that dissolves further when you shake the pump, you are very welcome.

I don't know what seal is comes from. It might even come from a ram, but I doubt in my case it is, because the particles are too big to pass the end fittings of the hydraulic lines. The holes are very tiny.

I am still waiting for my pump repair. But it's understandable with the current border closures. It is a Dutch guy, so he needs a good reason to come to Belgium again.

Fingers crossed everything works out well.
Once I have the data of all the seals, I can have a look here in Belgium to try to find them locally, and have a go once my other pump gives up.