Out of oil in elevating roof - stuck in closed position - how can I get it open to access pump?

[OSL]

Hi, I have recently bought a 2005 T5 California. My problem is that the elevating roof is out of oil. I have clear indications on leakage in the area around the pump with drops hanging from the interiour reading lamp. When I bought the car about a month ago the roof worked but I could hear how the system lacked oil to reach its upper position. I also saw the wet areas below where the pump is located. I figured this to be a solvable problem and took a chance.

Now when I have had some time to spare on the car I tried to elevate the roof to access the pump and the controle module underneath the front roof cut-out reinforcement pan. Imagine how puzzeled I where when the roof did not move at all... The pump is spinning but I can hear that is has no recistance, no oil.

I have read all the related threads on the forum but I have only found posts where the roof won`t close properly and other similar issues.

My questions is now:
1. How can I access the pump when the roof is stuck in lowered position? Can I open the emergency release valve and try to force the roof to open?
2. Once the roof is open - what is the procedure for refilling the oil system and get all air out?
3. When I started the failure investigation I noticed that the Emergency lowering valve was left slightly open by the former owner. It looked like there was some oil comming from the threads in the hole entrance, most likely this have been left like this for some time. Do you think this is a plausible explanation to the loss of oil?

All feed back is highly appreciated to solve this inverted pandoras box...

Good illustration is to be found from page 14 in SSP329

Best regards from Oslo

 

[Hotel California]

The oilreservoir for the roofhydrolics sits in the front of the cabin behind the controlpanel.
Don't know how to open the roof if no hydrolics but guess is the system is drained there is no presure the roof can be lifted....?
Try put some heavy glassuckers each frontside on the roof and pull up ...not gonne be easy but worth a try.

If the emergency valve was not properly closed i think could let oil out and air in....don't know sure.

I would take it to a specalist , not just any VW dealer. Try the ones who are doing the roofcorrosion repair .

 

[sidepod]

Id try to get some oil into the system first. Fill the reservoir and try to operate.
Once you can get access to the pump, close the emerg valve.
There will be a bleed on the pump and a procedure to bleed.

It sounds like there is a seal issue somewhere.

 

[snowy55]

Do you need to raise the roof to get at the pump?

 

[Argo&Liebe]

Don't know if it might help

 

[Hotel California]

Do you need to raise the roof to get at the pump?

Read my post above...

 

[sidepod]

I think you'll struggle to raise the roof, the gear ratios back through the hydraulic pump and motor are against you. You may manage if you push gently and very slowly.

Is it possible to get at the bolts that hold the rood to the frame structure. If so, you can release the roof and push it clear of the frame. You should then be able to get at whatever you need. to.

 

[snowy55]

Read my post above...

So, no you do not need to raise the roof to get at the pump.

 

[CYCLOPATH]

IMPORTANT THAUGHT
If the hydraulics don't work, doesnt it mean the roof isn't held down, and could blow up while driving!!
It might be worth using the emergency tie down kit, as it could be expensive and dangerous if I am right.

 

[AlanC]

IMPORTANT THAUGHT
If the hydraulics don't work, doesnt it mean the roof isn't held down, and could blow up while driving!!
It might be worth using the emergency tie down kit, as it could be expensive and dangerous if I am right.

That is a good idea, but I think if the roof has been dropped normally with the pump, it will not be able to be raised manually as the closed rams should have engaged with a locking tab on the frame.

The rams have to be extended slightly to clear these tabs and then the roof will be able to be raised manually.
If the roof has collapsed then the rams will not have engaged with the lock tabs and the safety straps should be used.

Seems to me the best procedure is to make sure the release valve is fully closed and top up the reservoir with hydraulic fluid. Then use the pump to see if it will raise. It probably won't go fully up and will need bleeding to be re-pressurised. I am unsure about how this is done.

Cleaning the interior is going to be an issue.

Good luck

Alan

 

[OSL]

All - thanks for your response today.

Alan - you are right - the roof has been lowered normally and most likely the lock tabs are engaged still. These will need the hydraulic system to work in order to be relesed.

Hotel California and Snowy55 - I am thrilled to hear that the pump is accessable from the inside of the cabin! I have heard perfectly contradictional info up until now. This means that is is well worh the effort to start tearing down the ceiling trim and dig further into the roof hydraulic pump. Any reference info on how this is best done is highly appreciated.

The interior will never be the same after this oil treatment for sure. This is a shame but not the end of the world for me.

The car is currently at the paint shop but I will update this thread as I progress once I have it back in my garage.

Does anyone have pictures on pump, reservoair, etc. It would be great reference for me.

Thanks again!

 

[Argo&Liebe]

Maybe you already have these...

 

[Les]

Not sure if this helps.

http://www.partsbase.org/vw/campmob...009-87535-hydraulic-pump-with-electric-motor/

 

[Hotel California]

Post above gives more inside on where located
Look halfway down page one here , to see how the pump looks in real life...
http://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/cali-technical-tips-tricks.9457/

 

[sidepod]

There you go, all the Intel you need.
If you can access the pump, disconnect both flow and return lines from the pump and you should be able to push the roof up. It will be messy so get some rags/containers ready to catch the excess fluid.

 

[AlanC]

All - thanks for your response today.

Alan - you are right - the roof has been lowered normally and most likely the lock tabs are engaged still. These will need the hydraulic system to work in order to be relesed.

I think that you will not be able to raise the roof manually if the hydraulic system in not functioning.

You can see, from the pictures below, there are two lock tabs on the front scissors on each side. The bar and plastic one at the front and the smaller adjustable one under the roof at the back. Clearly if the roof was not locked in place when closed, it may open while you are driving down the Auto Route!

If the roof has been dropped using the hydraulic system, the rams will have pulled the scissor arms back under these tabs.

You will not be able to release these lock tabs if the pump is not functioning.

The safety straps we all have are needed if the roof has dropped but is not locked down.

Not the case with your problem as we are assuming the pump was working when the roof was dropped.
Having said that I am puzzled why the release valve has been opened?

 

[sidepod]

My guess is that these tabs (spring loaded?) are what operate the limit switches (Senders G493/494 from the schematic above). These, I don't think are hydraulically operated, simply mechanically "pushed" by the roof in its up/down limits? In other words, they shouldn't stop a "handraulic" operation of a roof (assuming pump is disconnected etc)?

 

[AlanC]

There are no switches near these and are not spring loaded, as far as I can see, but happy to be corrected.
I wonder if the Senders G493/494 are under the plastic covers, operated by the hydraulic rams themselves?

It would seem sensible for the roof to have a sturdy mechanical lock in place to secure it while driving.

Alan

 

[splitmike]

Sorry to ask guys but could somebody please show me what the safety straps are and where they are mounted to be used.

 

[calikev]

http://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/roof-failure.4462/#post-39334 Some info here

 

[OSL]

Again - thanks! Looks like there is hope for accessing the pump from inside to get it out and locate the leak. with the info provided here I might even have a chance to find the potentially needed spares.

The former owner was not the most handy man I have met. I suspect that he might have forgotten to tighten the emergency screw in his stressed moment of not getting the roof down. But again that is only a guess.

Best regards and thanks for the support.

May I ask if there is any good instructions on how to dissassemble the cealing/interior roof trim available here too?

 

[Tactical]

Looks like there is hope for accessing the pump from inside to get it out and locate the leak

Without a doubt it can be done.

Here are two photos showing the roof lining removed from the inside. The pump is hanging down and easily accessible.





Unfortunately I don't know the procedure for removing the lining. The photos were taken by my local VW workshop when they investigated a roof raising fault. The fault incidentally turned out to be due to mangled wires (as you can see below) which run underneath the hydraulic rams.

 

[OSL]

Hi, my car is now back home from paint shop and I am ready to start with the elevating roof. Do anyone know what oil that should be used in this system?

Thanks!