EU Referendum - 23rd June - How will you vote?

[WelshGas]

Damn those crafty Europeans, taking our sovereignty away by stealth with their human rights for everyone*
Let's tell 'em what we think and vote Leave. That'll teach 'em.

* The same human rights act that 'er Majesty proposes to repeal...

Now you are getting pathetic in your responses. Roll on voting day. I hope the British Public make the right decision and make the politicians, employers, economists, lawyers and judges get off their fat behinds and start doing what they are paid to do instead of just feathering their own nests at our expense.

 

[Amarillo]

No, of course I don't think a 'war' is inevitable if we stay in the EU.

I am heartened to learn that you agree that if we decide to stay within the union at this referendum, and if we were later to decide to leave, we could do so without waging war against those we have so much in common.

Your talk about the UK losing the Brexit vote and then leaving at some future date is sophistry. We all know that there won't be a second chance... Come on Crispins, come on!

Not sophistry at all. It is as blindingly obvious as that at some point in the future the Scots could be offered a second referendum to leave the United Kingdom.

In 1973 there was a referendum to join the Common Market. I was young at the time, but I remember it well. Since then the Common Market has morphed into the European Union, and we are being offered a second referendum to confirm or otherwise that this is the right union for us. As the EU continues to develop with an even wider range of common policy, it is perfectly credible to expect that at some stage further down the line we would be offered a further vote to confirm our membership.

 

[hirsty]

here you go @fred - in the style of Monty Python:

 

[T6 CFO]

here you go @fred - in the style of Monty Python:

So yet another list of things that are totally down to being in the EU.?????

This list though for "Monty Python"fans rather than a list for young people with the G missing. More rubbish.


Mike

 

[Flood51]

Hi

I've maxed out at 24 OAPs that I am taking to vote on the 23rd so if you live in Horsham msg me, I can find more. Turn out will win it.
Flood51 love the intellectual arguments but numbers win.

 

[Stevecaterham7]

I'm a bit confused by how leaving will make a massive difference to the number of people coming in to the U.K. Control of our borders seems to be a cornerstone of vote leave.

So we currently have a government with a stated aim of sub 100k people a year. They also have full control over our borders for non-EU I believe.

Yet we had 150k people from outside the EU come in in the last year. Why??

This suggests that leaving the EU won't in fact dramatically change how many people come here, as the government don't make their powers work. If anything, you'd think that because they know they have to let EU in, they would have kept all of the rest out to try and at least get near their own target.

So a few questions:

1) am I missing the point?
2) is it because the govt. know immigration is actually beneficial and drives growth - in which case leave's case is weaker.
3) is it because even with power they can't properly control numbers - in which case leave's case is weaker

It appears where we do have full control we still let loads in. We've had years now where govt. has stated they will cut immigration, but have not done much about non-EU.

So why does leaving dramatically alter this? This really isn't an area I know much about, so happy to have it explained.

 

[jts46]

John

I don't know of any posts being removed and I've been following this thread fairly closely.

I do apologise the post was in "advice for travel/fuel in france" post 51 i think

John

 

[SqueakyWheel]

Yet we had 150k people from outside the EU come in in the last year. Why??
.

There needs to be a distinction between migration and net migration when looking at the numbers. And even then, the numbers are far from clear. The UK in fact issued almost 550,000 ‘long term’ visas to non-EAA nationals in the previous 12 months. 270k were for study, 230k for work and 100k for ‘family and other’ ( which adds up to more than 550k as some have visas to both work and study ). As this is independent of EU membership, we can presume those visas would still be issued.

In addition, there were 42,000 asylum applications. This is also independent of EU membership. Although it could be argued that we would see an increase in asylum seekers as France/Netherlands would be less inclined to prevent people from reaching the UK ports.

There were also around 100k immigrants to the UK with British passports. Offset by the 150k Brits that left ( to work or retire in southern Europe etc. ). Leaving the EU may reduce the number of Brits immigrating and thus increase the net migration figures.

Of the net ~150k EU immigrants, the vast majority are in work, or family dependants of a worker. I’d accept that some of those are 'taking' work that 'could' be done by a UK national, but I tend to believe that after a Brexit, the UK government will just issue an equivalent number of work visas to EU nationals.

Brexit would give more control over who is allowed to enter the country to work, but I can’t see it making any real difference to the numbers.

 

[fred]

@Stevecaterham7 you're not wrong to question this. I haven't heard an actual argument as to how a Leave vote will reduce immigration (if reducing immigration is in fact desirable, which is also relevant)
See
https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/thread...ne-how-will-you-vote.13943/page-7#post-146905
https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/thread...ne-how-will-you-vote.13943/page-8#post-146912

 

[Flood51]

Personally I don't see the immigration issue as a problem. We get great European medics to man the NHS, I have a Dutch friend who does a really good job of fitting kitchens and bathrooms at a reasonable rate and I can get my BMW cleaned for £5. I wouldn't change anything about free movement when we leave. I don't even care about the £8-10 billion net as the membership fee. I only care about democracy and the fact we will be financially better off not being attached to a bureaucratic "mill stone". I just fail to understand people who don't embrace change and think like sheep they are safer in a big flock. Change has always worked for me.

 

[Digger]

When people quote supposed facts and figures from both sides I just wonder if the fear factor from both parties is getting out of control. One thing I know from my perspective is statistics and supposed facts can be massaged to give any output you desire. The EC is famous for this.
My problem is I want my country to have total control over its laws and taxes. I do not want 27 or more other countries having control over my life. When you think of the proposed EU superstate remember it is not for negotiation as it is not just their desire but their main goal. That is unacceptable to me.
There are a lot of newspapers printing rubbish about taxation, immigration etc. and that is corrosive and both sides then take offensive and defensive positions.
I want a reduced power and no more integration for the EU to remain. Any thought of a superstate should ring warning bells as that will be disastrous and that my friends is the true belief of my many colleagues in Germany and most of the western EU.

 

[wyn]

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

 

[Digger]

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Lovely country and nice people I know in the south. Population 3 million so like Scotland would have little influence if any. That is my concern and reason i want smaller EU with less integration. Why can the politicians not recognise the perfect arrangement where we work together trading and travel with common goals but separate national power and control. Too big always fails.

 

[T6 CFO]

I'm a bit confused by how leaving will make a massive difference to the number of people coming in to the U.K. Control of our borders seems to be a cornerstone of vote leave.

So we currently have a government with a stated aim of sub 100k people a year. They also have full control over our borders for non-EU I believe.

Yet we had 150k people from outside the EU come in in the last year. Why??

This suggests that leaving the EU won't in fact dramatically change how many people come here, as the government don't make their powers work. If anything, you'd think that because they know they have to let EU in, they would have kept all of the rest out to try and at least get near their own target.

So a few questions:

1) am I missing the point?
2) is it because the govt. know immigration is actually beneficial and drives growth - in which case leave's case is weaker.
3) is it because even with power they can't properly control numbers - in which case leave's case is weaker

It appears where we do have full control we still let loads in. We've had years now where govt. has stated they will cut immigration, but have not done much about non-EU.

So why does leaving dramatically alter this? This really isn't an area I know much about, so happy to have it explained.

It might well be a cornerstone for some people and it is also convenient for the remain camp to kept bringing the discussion back to immigration. I believe the debate has moved considerably from this issue. Obviously there are people who find the issue important but I believe you are going to struggle to find anyone who is inclined to discuss the issue on here. I have made my position clear as have others in that the issue is in the control of our borders, it's not just about numbers which you could argue about endlessly. I favour immigration and diversity. Many in the out camp do. I think you confuse numbers with control.


Mike

 

[hirsty]

OK - I'll bite then, what is it about the distinction between the net migration volume and border control that makes it important enough to drive a Leave vote?

Personally I am 100% in favour of free movement of goods, services & people between EU member states.

I can however understand - whilst disagreeing with - why some people do not want unrestricted movement in both directions in order to keep down the total number of people living on an island with a finite amount of space & consuming services (housing / schools / hospitals / utilities).

The control question is different though. Are you wanting to be able to admit / deny on a points system based on UK needs & preferences? Would this be at an individual yes / no level at border control points? What is the perceived benefit for UK if not volume control?

 

[Amarillo]

Too big always fails.

It seems to work well for the US, and working well for China.

 

[Digger]

It seems to work well for the US, and working well for China.

They don't have the issue of 27 other countries who have nothing in common. Unless of course you want a superstate. Somehow I think you do. Myself as an educated free spirit have other desires and freedom is uppermost. I have no fear of leaving although I would prefer the EU to downsize and reduce its influence so we could remain. Superstate never!

 

[Keith Smith]

They don't have the issue of 27 other countries who have nothing in common.

You don't think we have anything in common with the rest of Europe? I would have thought we have just about everything in common.

 

[T6 CFO]

OK - I'll bite then, what is it about the distinction between the net migration volume and border control that makes it important enough to drive a Leave vote?

Personally I am 100% in favour of free movement of goods, services & people between EU member states.

I can however understand - whilst disagreeing with - why some people do not want unrestricted movement in both directions in order to keep down the total number of people living on an island with a finite amount of space & consuming services (housing / schools / hospitals / utilities).

The control question is different though. Are you wanting to be able to admit / deny on a points system based on UK needs & preferences? Would this be at an individual yes / no level at border control points? What is the perceived benefit for UK if not volume control?

I will assume you are replying to my post.

I'm not trying to get you to bite. Have a read of my post and you will see that your remark about net migration being important enough to drive a leave vote is completely wrong. It might be the issue that is driving you to vote remain but it is not mine. You want to discuss immigration on the basis that it so important to anyone who wants out. I keep saying it's not and in other posts give reasons for out, but nope it's back to immigration. Please read the post and don't assume what suits your arguments.

I favour free trade with everyone as does the WTO not just those in the EU.

The rest of your post is back to immigration.

In order to arrive at a decision to vote remain or out I have looked at all the main issues. I have considered them separately and then come to a decision based on my position as a whole. In this debate we are being asked to justify every daft remark by everyone in the OUT camp. I can't as there are idiots in the OUT camp as their are on the remain.





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[WelshGas]

The Original 8 countries had equivalent standards of living. Free movement of people was balanced across countries to a reasonable extent.
However the EU has now grown to 28 countries, and the original plan of countries joining having equivalent standards has fallen by the wayside such that internal movement of people is no longer reasonably balanced across the EU, and with the Germans Open Door policy it is becoming even more unbalanced.
Why was this growth allowed, because the EU is failing and the powers that be realise that only if it expands will the gravy train continue and their idealogical ideas continue . BUT, this train is on a line to nowhere and guess what?, there are buffers at the end of the track. Continued expansion will lengthen the track but the buffers are still there and the train is so large now, with so many feeding at the trough that it cannot stop and it will de-rail. Whether we stay in or out it will fail. The signs are already there.
Southern Europe is now owned and controlled by the EU and German Banks. Unemployment has not fallen in those countries. Internal Migration is out of control. The Birth rate in Germany and some surrounding countries has fallen below a sustainable level so that the mean age is rising so they are taking in thousands of financial immigrants to bolster their working population . These immigrants are of different culture and do not seem willing to adopt the laws and morality/culture of their adopted country.
I don't know if we will be worse off if we Leave or Remain, but the EU is heading for a train crash of monumental size. Do you want to be a passenger or an onlooker able to help when the inevitable happens.

 

[Stevecaterham7]

These immigrants are of different culture and do not seem willing to adopt the laws and morality/culture of their adopted country.

That's a very broad brush you appear to be using. "These immigrants" to use your phrase covers a huge raft of countries, cultures, religions, reasons for moving and of course individual approaches to life. Your comfort in lumping them all together into one mass who won't adopt the "morality" of their adopted country (whatever that means) is worrying.

Within this group of immigrants will be people who absolutely integrate, who bring new ideas and positivity and help drive an economy forward. Next time you find yourself in need of the NHS there is a chance you'll be desperate for the help of one of these immigrants you so easily brand as unwilling to "adopt a morality and culture".

Immigration has been shown time and again to bring positive impacts to an economy, but all the time some people view immigrants as an amorphous group and somehow 'not like us' then we'll never have harmony. Leave can keep picking up votes by appealing to this xenophobic/racist demographic, even though some like T6 CFO may have wider and more rational drivers for wanting out.

 

[GrannyJen]

I have no wish to enter into some of the more confrontational discussions on this forum but regarding immigration many have brought skills, alternative cultures, willingness to work and fresh open minds to this country that have benefitted us all.

One even gifted me to this sceptred isle.

My mother managed to be English by just six days as my grandmother, an arab refugee, gave birth just after arriving in Durham from France.

 

[Amarillo]

They don't have the issue of 27 other countries who have nothing in common.

I struggle to find many things that Uyghurs of Xinjiang have in common with Manchus of Heilongjiang, or Hawaiians with the people of Maine. Indeed, I'd go further and say you are, in part, wrong. The peoples of Europe have more in common with each other than the peoples of China; perhaps this is not true of the USA.

 

[WelshGas]

That's a very broad brush you appear to be using. "These immigrants" to use your phrase covers a huge raft of countries, cultures, religions, reasons for moving and of course individual approaches to life. Your comfort in lumping them all together into one mass who won't adopt the "morality" of their adopted country (whatever that means) is worrying.

Within this group of immigrants will be people who absolutely integrate, who bring new ideas and positivity and help drive an economy forward. Next time you find yourself in need of the NHS there is a chance you'll be desperate for the help of one of these immigrants you so easily brand as unwilling to "adopt a morality and culture".

Immigration has been shown time and again to bring positive impacts to an economy, but all the time some people view immigrants as an amorphous group and somehow 'not like us' then we'll never have harmony. Leave can keep picking up votes by appealing to this xenophobic/racist demographic, even though some like T6 CFO may have wider and more rational drivers for wanting out.

Having worked in the NHS for 42 years I have some experience of the excellent Doctors and Nurses from the Commonwealth and other European countries. They came by invitation having fulfilled certain educational and legal requirements and are fully integrated into our society.
That is not what is happening in Europe at the moment. Sharia Courts for one group who will not accept that our Laws and Morality apply to them as well. Women unable to celebrate NewYear, because of a " Cultural Difference ". Women treated as chattels and forced to marry for financial, or immigration reasons.
Using words such as xenophobic and racist is to be expected because you basically have no answer, neither does the EU on how to manage a mass movement of people , some refugees looking for a place of safety, but a large number of economic migrants . What to do with them, how to integrate them, house them and return the economic and undesirables migrants. What would you suggest?
I know, don't answer the question just call me a xenophobic racist.

There is absolutely NO comparison between the managed immigration that benefits our NHS and economy and what is happening now in the EU in its death throes.

 

[Neilgbj]

On a more harmonious note there is now a Cali owners Strava club https://www.strava.com/clubs/200510 to share your outdoor exploits, cycling, running, walking, swimming etc wherever you come from or whatever you may vote for in the referendum