EU Referendum - 23rd June - How will you vote?

[TwoDogs]

Do you want to live in a superstate? Look at what Mons ( I think that was is name) proposed in 1923.
Superstate
European police force.
Inter grated armed forces.

Why not? The US has done pretty well with that model.....and if there's going to be one (there isn't) I'd rather be in it, influencing it

 

[TwoDogs]

Ps I do like that the EU referendum poll at the top of the pag closes 3 weeks after the actual referendum

 

[jts46]

Do you want to live in a superstate? Look at what Mons ( I think that was is name) proposed in 1923.
Superstate
European police force.
Inter grated armed forces.

Why not? The US has done pretty well with that model.....and if there's going to be one (there isn't) I'd rather be in it, influencing it

Yes but in the us they can vote them out after 5 years.

John

 

[TwoDogs]

No States have chosen to leave the US, have they?

 

[jts46]

No because they are federal states and Washington takes the ultimate decision

 

[Digger]

I think one has to be rational and investigate the true intentions of the European Commission. They want to bring about a Superstate as that is their publicised intent. We have no influence because Germany and France politicians have no desire to really allow any dissent or discussion and have little true respect for us. Look how they treated Cameron.
I deal with German and other western Europeans who share my concerns and similarly have no say in their own future. Politicians an unelected officials care little for our right to chose and that is my concern. I want a trade agreement but nothing more if it means being part of a state where I have to obey self appointed judges and officials who have little respect for my rights.
Read up and study the EU documents - ignore the political outpourings and judge for yourself if you value true freedom and the right to determine your own future. I have relatives in Germany and France who say these people share my concerns.

 

[Amarillo]

I believe the phrase is "bettter to be inside the tent p!ssing out, than outside p!ssing in".......

Playing devil's advocate - "bettter to outside the tent p!ssing in, than inside being p!ssed on!"

 

[GrannyJen]

F

No States have chosen to leave the US, have they?

11 did in 1861

 

[TwoDogs]

Fair point...but not for long!

 

[GrannyJen]

Fair point...but not for long!

A lot still consider it to be an ongoing "Confexit"

 

[Lewis]

I fear there's a significant age divide in attitudes towards the EU. I know very few people under 30 who support leaving and a large number of people over 45 who think differently and whilst 'people i know' is hardly scientific it seems to be reflected in media coverage and polling. I think as a society, and considering the people most likely to be affected in the longer term, we should be paying attention to the views of younger people. Either way, I can't believe that the government blocked 16yr olds from having a say.

For me it's just about the economic arguments and I feel the remain campaign has won that one.

 

[Bellesca]

I have just watched The Spectator debate:Should Britain Leave the EU? Published 28th April on YouTube
I want to vote In but this debate has shifted my opinion quite a lot towards voting Out

 

[Borris]

No one can say with even the remotest degree of certainty whether staying or leaving will be better for the long term interests of the UK.

However it seems to me that purely on a risk assessment basis, to leave is seen by many as high risk, as the future consequences are unknown and to stay is considered either the lower or no risk option based on our knowledge of our current position within the EU. Better the devil you know etc. So in effect the choice is:
Vote to leave - decision based on our possible speculative future position.
or
Vote to stay - decision based on the known current position.

Now whilst I accept that there is considerable risk attached to leaving, anyone who feels that to remain is the safest bet should consider just how much the UK has been changed by our involvement in the EU since the British electorate voted to remain in the Common Market. No one voted for the uber powerful, unaccountable, often dictatorial, expensive, aspirational super state that we now find ourselves involved in. IMO, when looking at the risk level attached to voting remain, it's worth comparing like with like (potential future with potential future) and contemplating what GB might look like in a few decades time. Yes, we know what the EU is and our position within it now but that will change in the future and so will our position within it. How will the current political issues currently effecting the electorates decision e.g loss of soveriegnty and uncontrolled imigration to name but two have effected the UK in twenty thirty or forty years time? Will we be sorely regretting our decision to remain, if that is the way the vote goes?

I have long felt that despite the risk, and providing that we remain as a United Kingdom, the UK's long term interests are more likely to be rosier outside of the EU. However I have promised myself that I would listen to all the arguments from both sides before finally making up my mind. So far I have heard very little to pursued me to change my mind. In fact all of the dubious scare predictions along with the recent crude US attempt to blackmail the electorate into voting to remain has so far only strenghened my view.

Just my opinion.

 

[Geezso]

No matter what we vote for the goal posts will be moved to suit Mr Cameron's opinion on the matter.

 

[Leo K]

My favourite scenario: England out, Scotland in. So that we can enjoy our whisky without paying punitive import duties. Moreover, it would give us Europeans an opportunity to restrict the City’s financial interests, now protected by a Tory veto.

Frankly, a possible Brexit is not much of an issue over here. Europe apparently has more serious problems: North vs. South, East vs West, migration, Turkish blackmail to gain entrance. Major reforms are clearly necessary, but everybody is pulling in different directions. As usual in our supposed ’superstate’.

Perhaps a Brexit is not a bad thing if it stimulates a rethinking of Europe. For instance a two-level system in which Britain and Greece, together with most East European countries, become economic satellites, while other countries continue the unification project, difficult as it is.

From my Dutch perspective it is hard, though, to imagine a meaningful Europe without Britain’s participation. We have much in common and the UK is essential to balance the French/German love for centralism and bureaucracy. But for us, traditionally (anti-European sentiments being on the rise everywhere), Europe is not just about economy. Not in the long run.

I believe that if Europe fails, we (our children, grandchildren) will become playthings of bigger economic and political powers, not the most democratic friends. Perhaps the UK will be in a relatively privileged situation as a vassal (without much influence) of the US, but it won’t be a pleasure to face a sick and divided continent. For us, Brexit or no Brexit, there is no choice but to stumble on.

Essentially, I believe, anti-european sentiments are primarily an expression of a longing for things as they were. Memories of an imagined past. Being an old chap myself, I often share these feelings. But the one thing we can be sure of is that time is not going backwards.

 

[Digger]

I fear there's a significant age divide in attitudes towards the EU. I know very few people under 30 who support leaving and a large number of people over 45 who think differently and whilst 'people i know' is hardly scientific it seems to be reflected in media coverage and polling. I think as a society, and considering the people most likely to be affected in the longer term, we should be paying attention to the views of younger people. Either way, I can't believe that the government blocked 16yr olds from having a say.

For me it's just about the economic arguments and I feel the remain campaign has won that one.

I don't think its just age differences to the in/out debate that is the dividing influence as most informed individuals who have studied the EU agenda base their decision on facts. Regretfully very few are aware of the issues and agenda the EU proposes and base their decision on very limited facts if any. That is entirely due to the EU and political class not telling the truth as they know most EU citizens would find it unacceptable.
Our students are divided roughly 50/50 on the referendum and unlike the older generation have little fear of a Brexit and are more concerned with their long term future. They make comments on overcrowding and changing their society which allows them almost total freedom. This is not addressed by the debate in a sensible manner and regretfully many are woefully ill informed.
I think a reduced and western approach to Europe would succeed but the more expansion they crave will ultimately cause it to fail. It should be reduced in size and then it might survive but otherwise I fear it may bring about its own demise. That would be unfortunate.

 

[TwoDogs]

My favourite scenario: England out, Scotland in.
Got to wonder what will happen to Wales and Northern Ireland in this scenario?

 

[teeboy]

.

Frankly, a possible Brexit is not much of an issue over here. Europe apparently has more serious problems: North vs. South, East vs West, migration, Turkish blackmail to gain entrance. Major reforms are clearly necessary, but everybody is pulling in different directions. As usual in our supposed ’superstate’.

Excellent to get a "man in the street" European view. Most of us Brits think that we are the most important thing in the world, whereas in reality we are only half in Europe anyway and don't have much of a say.

Personally I don't think it will make much difference to my life if we are in or out.

However it is similar to the Scottish in/out vote - if they voted out of the UK or if we vote out of Europe the main winners will be the lawyers who have to unravel all of the laws. So on that basis I tend towards stay in.

But if we do stay in I think there is a very serious chance of the collapse of the European Union, and in that scenario it may well be best to get out before the collapse.

 

[WelshGas]

We are told that if we leave we will be in uncharted waters. Possibly,but at least we will be masters of our own destiny, whatever it may be.

To Stay In is the safer and less risky option. Sorry, but if the UK does vote to stay in then that will be the start of the "Screw You Campaign " mounted by the EU Bureaucrats and there won't be a thing we can do about it.
.
NATO keeps the peace in Europe, not the EU.
The EU is heavily dependant on security information from GCHG.
The EU exports more goods to the UK than the UK does to the EU.
The EU is against State supported industries, and that means the NHS will have to be privatised and it is already starting because of EU regulations.
I do not want my culture to be overwhelmed. I have no objection to an evolving culture, but that is not what will happen in a few years time if we stay in.

The easiest option is always to do nothing, to keep the status quo.

 

[pjm-84]

Not the easiest but perhaps the safest without all the information to hand. Even if I did have all the information I'm not sure I'm best qualified to decide what's in my best interests. Its not my forte.

I don't make decisions on emotional grounds I need to apply logic. As such the emotional campaign does not work for me.

 

[GrannyJen]

I hear one thing all the time, control of our own destiny.

I do not understand how that works.

A nation of 60m people dependent on international trade to pay for it's pensions, NHS, Education and defence will never be masters of it's own destiny. It will always be dependent on what deals, alliances and treaties the other major trading blocs are dreaming up amongst themselves and I would rather be a member of one of the big clubs than a little minnow being of very minor interest and trying to make it's voice heard.

 

[WelshGas]

Yes, the "Big" club is doing well. I'm sure Greece, Italy, Spain and other members of the " Big " Club would agree.
We were a member of a " Big " Club Trading group once upon a time - Called the Commonwealth - until we stabbed them in the back in the 70's.
The original EU Trading Group that we joined is a totally different animal to to the present 28 Country EU Grouping, and now they are being blackmailed by Turkey to let them become members, without fulfilling any of the requirements regarding human rights, financial controls, employment law etc: etc:.

 

[Digger]

The reasoned discussion I heard was that the EU should be reduced to 7 or 10 countries as the rest are bringing very little benefit if any and that too many voices makes decision making impossible. Look at committees and compare those with fewer members with similar values and outlook to those with many differing voices. Nothing get done or it fails miserably. I wish a strong reduced EU but with each country having ultimate responsibility of its own destiny. Better in if it can be reformed. As for Turkey just listed to its leader who has very authoritarian and backward views.

 

[Amarillo]

The EU is against State supported industries, and that means the NHS will have to be privatised and it is already starting because of EU regulations.

Is there any evidence to support the conclusion that the NHS will have to be privatised?

 

[CALI FATE]

No one can say with even the remotest degree of certainty whether staying or leaving will be better for the long term interests of the UK.

However it seems to me that purely on a risk assessment basis, to leave is seen by many as high risk, as the future consequences are unknown and to stay is considered either the lower or no risk option based on our knowledge of our current position within the EU. Better the devil you know etc. So in effect the choice is:
Vote to leave - decision based on our possible speculative future position.
or
Vote to stay - decision based on the known current position.

Now whilst I accept that there is considerable risk attached to leaving, anyone who feels that to remain is the safest bet should consider just how much the UK has been changed by our involvement in the EU since the British electorate voted to remain in the Common Market. No one voted for the uber powerful, unaccountable, often dictatorial, expensive, aspirational super state that we now find ourselves involved in. IMO, when looking at the risk level attached to voting remain, it's worth comparing like with like (potential future with potential future) and contemplating what GB might look like in a few decades time. Yes, we know what the EU is and our position within it now but that will change in the future and so will our position within it. How will the current political issues currently effecting the electorates decision e.g loss of soveriegnty and uncontrolled imigration to name but two have effected the UK in twenty thirty or forty years time? Will we be sorely regretting our decision to remain, if that is the way the vote goes?

I have long felt that despite the risk, and providing that we remain as a United Kingdom, the UK's long term interests are more likely to be rosier outside of the EU. However I have promised myself that I would listen to all the arguments from both sides before finally making up my mind. So far I have heard very little to pursued me to change my mind. In fact all of the dubious scare predictions along with the recent crude US attempt to blackmail the electorate into voting to remain has so far only strenghened my view.

Just my opinion.

I agree with nearly all of that Boris - apart from the risk assessment bit. For me to stay in is higher risk - to both sovereignty and security. The rest is a lottery i appreciate that, but i believe in the UK and believe that we can manage our own affairs better out of all the EU nonsense and waste. We have become a lazy / hand-out obsessed nation lacking in the enterprise innovation and ingenuity that once made us great. There is a much bigger picture here and if you look passed the comfort blanket of the EU there is a great big world for us to trade in - bring it on.