EU Referendum - 23rd June - How will you vote?

[Loz]

If you have time, watch the debate yesterday called by the vote to "stop the government using public money for the EU remain leaflet" here; http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/93a979e7-4c8a-4d3f-89b1-529df4b4cad4
There are some very interesting facts and debate that might help your decision.

 

[CALI FATE]

Not many people know this, but I used to be obsessed / addicted to the hokey cokey - but with the help of the NHS i managed to turn it around and thats what its all about

Vote out - if the NHS is that bloody good and efficient it can expand into Europe and show them deluded foreigners just how it should be done

 

[WelshGas]

Is there any evidence to support the conclusion that the NHS will have to be privatised?

http://www.patients4nhs.org.uk/eu-us-free-trade-agreement-or-ttip/

The rest of the EU will not be significantly affected as their Health Care Systems are already Privately orientated compared with the NHS being predominantly Insurance based i.e.: You can have what you want as long as you can pay for it.

 

[Californiaman]

The NHS is doomed if TTIP goes through and very few people seem to be concerned about that....

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[Amarillo]

http://www.patients4nhs.org.uk/eu-us-free-trade-agreement-or-ttip/

I recall The Economist using a similar argument to conclude that 1 in 7 of prisoners executed in the US are innocent:
http://www.economist.com/node/315488
The argument is flawed.

 

[WelshGas]

I recall The Economist using a similar argument to conclude that 1 in 7 of prisoners executed in the US are innocent:
http://www.economist.com/node/315488
The argument is flawed.

Sorry. Disagree and the ground work is already being laid. Having worked in the NHS for 42 years I do have some insight and am still privy to some of the preparatory work that is being done.

 

[cpjb@btinternet.com]

I'm with whichever group supports the withdrawal of Worcester Sauce crisps from the Walker's multi pack .

 

[pjm-84]

What I've read and the angle being portrayed I also believe the NHS argument is subject to legal conjecture with the sides most concerned protecting ones interest. (A lot of Unite quotes in the document I read)

30years in the private sector. I was also brought in as a consultant for a privatised public service so have seen a "different side of the coin"

 

[pjm-84]

I thought WS was already banned!

 

[Borris]

I agree with nearly all of that Boris - apart from the risk assessment bit. For me to stay in is higher risk - to both sovereignty and security.

Well that was my point, probably badly made. Whilst to remain may, at the moment, seem to many as a lower risk, it may well turn out to be the worst choice for GB in the long term.

 

[aileron346]

I suppose understandable that the economic arguments dominate... For me these support remaining in without any question. But listening to my kids it's about much more than that...they are very much more instinctively pro-European than older generations and often snigger at the 'Little Englanders' as they put it. Having more recently studied the history of the major conflicts in Europe they also see the EU project as a unifying pro peace project. They also reckon that Britain has always engaged half heartedly with its traditional xenophobic suspicions of Johnny Foreigner...what would the EU look like if Britain engaged more positively?


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[calicasas]

A decision based upon current global/European circumstances now is fine, however, in a rapidly changing world a decision to exit may turn out not to be the right one in say several years time.

No doubt the EU will lose out with us exiting, but to think we won't lose out either is being narrow minded. (It ain't always rosier on the other side...)
I have no doubt that we lose something staying in and lose something staying out (just because life isn't perfect).
The only thing we are debating here is which decision will lose us less. The reality is no one can know for sure, the only thing I do know is that if we ever needed anything from the EU in the future our position would be weakened.
Don't forget that there are a few EU countries that won't mind if we leave as this will have a positive impact for their own economies.
Anyone here that thinks one side of the vote is all bad and the other all good is deluded. We lose either way...
An Island mentality in a global world fits like a square peg in a round hole..
I have made up my mind and I know what I will be voting!

 

[Digger]

Do some detailed research into the EU intentions and objectives before making a decision. Fear of the unknown and decision making, based on frankly no information, is no basis for determining your future. Most of our young students have little if any understanding of the EU and although thought as savvy have very limited knowledge of the EU. They do admit that. I want a smaller less powerful EU but the right to walk away at any time if the intrusion and freedoms we enjoy are unacceptable. Remember the EU are working to a dominant position where you are locked in forever as things stand. It has to reform.

 

[pjm-84]

The arguments seem to revolve around emotion and conjecture which to me implies a lack of understanding. I don't fear the unknown I just can't make an important decision when I don't have sufficient facts.

No such thing as locked in forever! We are only human!

 

[Annik]

The biggest threat to the UK in our future will be immigration and European free movement laws being further relaxed, the only way for the UK to fully control and police our boarders is to leave the EU and therefore have the right to refuse entry or deport undesirables based on our laws and needs, not some European bureaucrat deciding immigration quotas for us

For this reason I will vote leave.

( I am not a member of UKIP by the way)

 

[Californiaman]

You think there will be a direct relationship between leaving the EU and gaining 'control' of our borders? I don't... It isn't that simple!

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[Borris]

A decision based upon current global/European circumstances now is fine, however, in a rapidly changing world a decision to exit may turn out not to be the right one in say several years time.

No doubt the EU will lose out with us exiting, but to think we won't lose out either is being narrow minded. (It ain't always rosier on the other side...)
I have no doubt that we lose something staying in and lose something staying out (just because life isn't perfect).
The only thing we are debating here is which decision will lose us less. The reality is no one can know for sure, the only thing I do know is that if we ever needed anything from the EU in the future our position would be weakened.
Don't forget that there are a few EU countries that won't mind if we leave as this will have a positive impact for their own economies.
Anyone here that thinks one side of the vote is all bad and the other all good is deluded. We lose either way...
An Island mentality in a global world fits like a square peg in a round hole..
I have made up my mind and I know what I will be voting!

It must be obvious to almost everyone that what ever we decide we are going to lose out in a wide variety of ways. However IMO that isn't really the point. The decision that we are all being asked to make is really about which, remain or brexit, is likely to provide GB with the best prospects in the decades ahead despite of the inevitable losses. Unfortunately this comes down to pure guess work.
Whilst, the terms "Little Englanders" and "Island mentality" may well be an accurate description for some voters that want out, I am sure that there are many more who feel that our prospects might well be rosier if we were free to trade globally without restriction. What we should be debating here is which decision will gain us more and I, like everyone else do not know the answer. I remain undecided albeit with a bias towards leaving.

 

[Bramco]

our prospects might well be rosier if we were free to trade globally without restriction

So given it isn't possible to be able to be free to trade globally without restriction, i.e. you have to have trade agreements in place which we wouldn't have if we left then our prospects might well be quite dark indeed, in fact pretty bleak. Until such time as trade agreements are in place everything is traded with tariffs, so the countries/blocks we export to would carry tariffs effectively killing some key parts of our economy, think cars for instance.

I had another reply penned earlier but decided not to post but couldn't resist this one.

But I'm IN for a thousand and one reasons (we lived in the Netherlands for 13 years both our kids were born there, so may be a bit biased).

Anyway, one of the reasons is that hopefully the EU will mandate that we get rid of miles.... Haven't you noticed how much faster you travel in Kms than in miles? It would speed up all our journeys. Discuss.

 

[Digger]

The arguments seem to revolve around emotion and conjecture which to me implies a lack of understanding. I don't fear the unknown I just can't make an important decision when I don't have sufficient facts.

No such thing as locked in forever! We are only human!

My biggest concern is the fact that the electorate will vote without any knowledge of the implications to both arguments. The EU intent is written down in black and white if you care to investigate. The EU intends to integrate all aspects of our services and institutions with no exit allowed. Check yourself and see. Our students are totally unaware of the political agenda as as most individuals.
The little Englander phrase is demeaning to those who are proud of their heritage and country. Remember people come here because with thrive and are a tolerant people. Do you really want to change?
I want a strong UK as part of a reduced democratic EU. As it stands it is heading for collapse as there is more nationalist feelings abroad than here. We lack foresight or ambition due to successive weak leaders and our society is plagued by inertia.
It is disturbing when decisions are made without knowing facts and use language which shows emotions rather than logic. We can do well out of the EU. We have no fear of that as it is a big world. Being small is no issue as the trade would not suffer. Politicians may talk and breed fear but business is business and money talks. Politicians crave power and look at how they milk the gravy train.
We need to either get involved and research or trust politicians. I never trust politicians.
I just want a reformed and democratic EU. No integration, just partners with cooperation and tolerance.
I hope that the EU reforms then I would stay as I cannot support a regime that denies me a future that I cannot control. At least we can vote out the UK government but you cannot do the same with the EC and the rest.

 

[Borris]

So given it isn't possible to be able to be free to trade globally without restriction, i.e. you have to have trade agreements in place which we wouldn't have if we left then our prospects might well be quite dark indeed, in fact pretty bleak. Until such time as trade agreements are in place everything is traded with tariffs, so the countries/blocks we export to would carry tariffs effectively killing some key parts of our economy, think cars for instance.

I had another reply penned earlier but decided not to post but couldn't resist this one.

But I'm IN for a thousand and one reasons (we lived in the Netherlands for 13 years both our kids were born there, so may be a bit biased).

Anyway, one of the reasons is that hopefully the EU will mandate that we get rid of miles.... Haven't you noticed how much faster you travel in Kms than in miles? It would speed up all our journeys. Discuss.

........without restriction from the EU.
Yes, we would need trade aggreements and that would take time but the long term prospects of being able to trade globally has to be worth considering. If we do decide to leave then there will be difficult times ahead but I do not feel the need to be overly pessimistic. GB is a great place with a great people and if we do leave I am sure we will rise to the challenge. We will have to.

 

[T6 CFO]

An argument for staying is if we believe we can change the direction it is taking.
If we are are leaving because we dislike the route it is taking and believe it will fail then whether we are in or out it will still have a massive impact on us.
So if we can influence it's direction we should consider staying.
If we can't and just have to go along with things in the belief that it will fail then we should abandon ship now.
The question is therefore can we influence things enough to get some of the things we want. I doubt it.




Mike

 

[CaliforniaBen]

As soon as I heard what Barack Obama had to say I was in the OUT camp, however many polls ( including the one on this thread) are saying the opposite, so although I am all for brexit I am quite confident the final result will be to stay in

 

[DavidofHook]

why do the Leave campaign refer to anything that the Stay campaign say as "scare tactics"? The fact is no-one has a clue what will happen if we leave, whereas we know where we are if we stay...and we might be able to influence the way the EU evolves.
I believe the phrase is "bettter to be inside the tent p!ssing out, than outside p!ssing in".......

Isn't the phrase "the EU would like us inside the tent pissing out rather than outside the tent pissing in"?

 

[jess]

Better the devil you know and all that ! Stay for us .

 

[Amarillo]

Yes, the "Big" club is doing well. I'm sure Greece, Italy, Spain and other members of the " Big " Club would agree.

The financial crisis was not brought about by the EU.

It would be an interesting project to determine the effects of the financial crisis on the PIGS countries (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain) if they were not members of the Euro club, and therefore supported by the more stable economies.

My best guess is rampant inflation to rob the rich quickly of their savings, instead they have low interest rates and quantitative easing to rob the rich more slowly of their savings. Of course Cyprus found a more honest way to do it, and simply raided the bank accounts of the rich.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21922110