Help, roof won't go down

[Kevthegas]

RMBN, are you on the South Coast ?
I had a Vw assist guy out this morning for my daughters Up.
He saw my Beach and mentioned he had a job on Saturday with a Cali roof stuck, sounds like you both had a lot of fun !!

Kev

 

[campandfly]

My roof did exactly this. Sag on one side and unable to lower it. AA released pressure in the passenger side ram. Oil sprayed out everywhere. We were then able to lower the roof and strap down with the safety straps.

Lucky for us the mechanic at the dealer was on the ball. We did have a chat with VW customer service, they suspected an imbalance in the hydraulic pressure. Seems like this was confirmed by the mechanic and a new pump had to be fitted. They did a very good job and left no mess, quite a bit of roof trim needs to be removed.

Although it looks like a ram has failed it was the pump that failed. At least on ours anyway.
Hopefully this will just be an unlucky thing although it seems others have failed too.
If it were to happen on holiday I would use the release screw behind the computer. Be careful not to unscrew too much and too quick just a tiny bit at a time. Then when the roof is down tighten back up. Oh and don't forget to put your safety tie down straps on.

 

[calimera]

My roof did exactly this. Sag on one side and unable to lower it. AA released pressure in the passenger side ram. Oil sprayed out everywhere. We were then able to lower the roof and strap down with the safety straps.

Lucky for us the mechanic at the dealer was on the ball. We did have a chat with VW customer service, they suspected an imbalance in the hydraulic pressure. Seems like this was confirmed by the mechanic and a new pump had to be fitted. They did a very good job and left no mess, quite a bit of roof trim needs to be removed.

Although it looks like a ram has failed it was the pump that failed. At least on ours anyway.
Hopefully this will just be an unlucky thing although it seems others have failed too.
If it were to happen on holiday I would use the release screw behind the computer. Be careful not to unscrew too much and too quick just a tiny bit at a time. Then when the roof is down tighten back up.

Good to hear Snows did a good job,read your previous post on this .
It will save going to Carrs in Exeter.
We did visit Snows to look at the different colours of the T6 & their demo T6.
They were waiting to appointment a Cali expert in the sales department.

This is such a useful thread. Will keep information in our Cali.

 

[RMBN]

Update, just dropped my California at the dealer, unannounced, very helpful, they presume its the pump above the windscreen and the job to replace it is listed as 2.5 hours. Left it with them and they gave me a lift home, so fingers crossed.
My dealer has always been a van centre and as such never really had the full California experience from them, interestingly they have now expanded there service centre and taken on two California specific mechanics, great news for us. They say there main job at the moment though is replacing and respraying all the corroded roof issues, but never the less they moved things around with those guys to get me booked straight in.

 

[notlob]

Quick update, van was dropped off first thing and ready after lunch so not the 5hrs originally suggested. Pump replace and they raised and lowered the roof 3 times to check. The sagging was intermittent so 3 times might not be enough and it always raised fine but sagged over time. All trim appears ok. I'll report back when it's had a proper test.

 

[Hotel California]

Good it's sorted out

 

[James H]

Quick update, van was dropped off first thing and ready after lunch so not the 5hrs originally suggested. Pump replace and they raised and lowered the roof 3 times to check. The sagging was intermittent so 3 times might not be enough and it always raised fine but sagged over time. All trim appears ok. I'll report back when it's had a proper test.

Have you been able to properly test it, is it all working well ?

 

[RMBN]

So my roof works great now, it goes up and stays up and then comes down evenly when you want it to.. but, there was a leak when they were taking the old unit out and now they are having to replace the roof liner as it has a great big oil stain across the drivers side.. these apparently aren't readily available and may take a couple of weeks to arrive, and my bus now smells of oil too... oh well, onwards.

 

[James H]

So my roof works great now, it goes up and stays up and then comes down evenly when you want it to.. but, there was a leak when they were taking the old unit out and now they are having to replace the roof liner as it has a great big oil stain across the drivers side.. these apparently aren't readily available and may take a couple of weeks to arrive, and my bus now smells of oil too... oh well, onwards.

Thank you for the update, its useful information which I will mention when mine goes in to see if the pump needs replacing. I hope they sort out the roof liner and do a good thorough job for you, hydraulic oil isn't exactly a very nice smell ! I get the impression it is not a common job to do. I regularly open the roof for the extra headroom so have no idea why my roof should start to sag, I can only think it must be a faulty component. I have noticed since new it has never shut exactly equally but then I gather others do likewise.
Regards
James.

 

[notlob]

Further update... Put the roof up a few times, went up and lowered ok except the motor makes a bit of an unpleasant sort of grinding sound when completing the lowering. Also when in the up position the fabric has wrinkles at the hinge position of the stiffeners which I'm sure weren't there before. I gave the fabric a 'tap' and it doesn't seem as tight as it was. Just wondered if it perhaps hasn't got as much hydraulic fluid as before and maybe not extending as much. I was planning for a night away when it's windy to see if it flaps and drums against the metal stays. I'm reluctant to take it back to have the trims taken apart again and there is still 2 yrs warranty on it so time yet. So the jury is still out......

 

[James H]

Further update... Put the roof up a few times, went up and lowered ok except the motor makes a bit of an unpleasant sort of grinding sound when completing the lowering. Also when in the up position the fabric has wrinkles at the hinge position of the stiffeners which I'm sure weren't there before. I gave the fabric a 'tap' and it doesn't seem as tight as it was. Just wondered if it perhaps hasn't got as much hydraulic fluid as before and maybe not extending as much. I was planning for a night away when it's windy to see if it flaps and drums against the metal stays. I'm reluctant to take it back to have the trims taken apart again and there is still 2 yrs warranty on it so time yet. So the jury is still out......

I have the same issue however was advised ( Carrs, Exeter, Devon ) that I should just monitor it for the time being. I am raising it ( pardon the pun ) with VWCS as the roof should work as designed which clearly in both our cases it isn't. It is certainly a quite complex bit of engineering and an expensive fix out of warranty. The dealership could give no reason why it should sag albeit not a great deal. He did point out the partial sag on the offside of the showroom T6 Ocean. I was a bit surprised he wasn't familiar with the club bungee.

 

[DMcCook]

Pictures:

View attachment 13725

View attachment 13726

View attachment 13727

View attachment 13728

Where did these pictures come from?
We’re trying to get our roof faults fixed in Australia - where no one has ever seen a Cali before.

 

[Emil Silenhag]

Where did these pictures come from?
We’re trying to get our roof faults fixed in Australia - where no one has ever seen a Cali before.

https://www.poptop.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/ssp_329-T5-english.pdf

 

[DMcCook]

Wow! Thank you.
It seems this sort of useful information isn't readily available to Australian dealers. Maybe I can give it to them.
David

 

[WelshGas]

Wow! Thank you.
It seems this sort of useful information isn't readily available to Australian dealers. Maybe I can give it to them.
David

This might be useful, but VW Australia and your Dealership should have access.
As an owner you can have access. It costs about 7€ or about 7$AUS for an hours access. Full workshop and repair manual. You can download the documents as pdf files to keep. Enter your VIN number and you get what is relevant to your vehicle. It is in English.

Domain Changed

 

[Defender90]

I have the same issue however was advised ( Carrs, Exeter, Devon ) that I should just monitor it for the time being. I am raising it ( pardon the pun ) with VWCS as the roof should work as designed which clearly in both our cases it isn't. It is certainly a quite complex bit of engineering and an expensive fix out of warranty. The dealership could give no reason why it should sag albeit not a great deal. He did point out the partial sag on the offside of the showroom T6 Ocean. I was a bit surprised he wasn't familiar with the club bungee.

Hi I have some concerns with some of the fault finding some of these garages are doing, firstly how do they know the pump has failed because to know that they need to know the system pressure if the pressure in the system is good why change the pump?
i work on hydraulic systems, i have never worked on a vw but the same principles apply.The cylinder control is more likely the cause.
Before they start pulling the van to bits ask them the process they have been through to get to the point of a pump change.Also I would like to know after the roof has been lowered using the bleed screw has any body tried to raise again and if so does it then continue to work or is the fault still present?

 

[DMcCook]

Wow. Thanks WelshGas

 

[DMcCook]

Hi I have some concerns with some of the fault finding some of these garages are doing, firstly how do they know the pump has failed because to know that they need to know the system pressure if the pressure in the system is good why change the pump?
i work on hydraulic systems, i have never worked on a vw but the same principles apply.The cylinder control is more likely the cause.
Before they start pulling the van to bits ask them the process they have been through to get to the point of a pump change.Also I would like to know after the roof has been lowered using the bleed screw has any body tried to raise again and if so does it then continue to work or is the fault still present?

THIS ^^^^^ is exactly my worry with this whole process, and it's so much worse over here in Oz, because no dealers have ever seen a Cali.
I just can't believe there isn't an official VW basic troubleshooting tech note for dealers. It's not a complicated system - we just need to know how it should work - what sensors should be reading and what pressures should exist...

 

[Defender90]

THIS ^^^^^ is exactly my worry with this whole process, and it's so much worse over here in Oz, because no dealers have ever seen a Cali.
I just can't believe there isn't an official VW basic troubleshooting tech note for dealers. It's not a complicated system - we just need to know how it should work - what sensors should be reading and what pressures should exist...

Exactly ,same issue in the U.K. with any car unit changers no real fault finding 9 times out of 10.
it could just be the position feed back but like you say you need the info to check it’s status when the fault occurs

 

[flying banana]

Hi I have some concerns with some of the fault finding some of these garages are doing, firstly how do they know the pump has failed because to know that they need to know the system pressure if the pressure in the system is good why change the pump?
i work on hydraulic systems, i have never worked on a vw but the same principles apply.The cylinder control is more likely the cause.
Before they start pulling the van to bits ask them the process they have been through to get to the point of a pump change.Also I would like to know after the roof has been lowered using the bleed screw has any body tried to raise again and if so does it then continue to work or is the fault still present?

I believe there are separate valves in the pump that lock the hydro pressure for each side. So if one of these valves leaks then pressure is lost to the corresponding cylinder. Hence it could be the pump. It is possible to swap the rams around or swap the pipes on the pump to prove this. Simple hydraulic fault finding. There is a thread on here somewhere how to do all this and how to change the pump out also. I would also be concerned about some of the so called experts fault finding techniques. Haven't they heard of the internet at VW garages?

 

[ArunAlec]

Hi I have some concerns with some of the fault finding some of these garages are doing, firstly how do they know the pump has failed because to know that they need to know the system pressure if the pressure in the system is good why change the pump?
i work on hydraulic systems, i have never worked on a vw but the same principles apply.The cylinder control is more likely the cause.
Before they start pulling the van to bits ask them the process they have been through to get to the point of a pump change.Also I would like to know after the roof has been lowered using the bleed screw has any body tried to raise again and if so does it then continue to work or is the fault still present?

I think the process they use is probably ”poke n hope”, change out components and hope the problem goes away. Then bill the customer for the lot.

 

[Defender90]

I believe there are separate valves in the pump that lock the hydro pressure for each side. So if one of these valves leaks then pressure is lost to the corresponding cylinder. Hence it could be the pump. It is possible to swap the rams around or swap the pipes on the pump to prove this. Simple hydraulic fault finding. There is a thread on here somewhere how to do all this and how to change the pump out also. I would also be concerned about some of the so called experts fault finding techniques. Haven't they heard of the internet at VW garages?

Hi ,true it could be the pump but as I have said I haven’t worked on a Cali roof so I don’t know how the cylinder position control is feed back to the control unit, again only a guess and something that could be suggested at the vw garage is if the sender is a transducer within the cylinder or even external to the cylinder and it fails to identify one of the cylinders position the roof will go all the way up as described ,then the system pressure would be reached on both cylinders what ever that is ,the pump would then drop out (turn off) and the pressure would be locked in on both cylinders. but if the cylinder with the bad feed back sender hasn’t been locked the roof will drop because all the weight will be on that one cylinder that has pressure on it and has been locked thus causing the roof to slowly sag.All hydraulic cylinders do pass on there seals over time but even more so if overloaded like if one cylinder is holding the roof up.
Only trying to help i could be totally wrong but worth asking the question to the vw tech

 

[Defender90]

Just being reading some posts from the past a guy removed his pump and fitted a new one ,very interesting again uneven lifting issue.looking at the pump it has a number of Allen bolt plugs these are quite often check valves which lock the ports off when the pump stops ie stopping the fluid draining back to the tank locking the fluid into the cylinder ,or they allow the roof cylinders to lift through pilot lines when the pump starts.
the guys issue might have been that debris has become trapped between the check valve so when the pump stops the fluid slowly passes over the check valve which then causes the cylinder to drop.each cylinder will have its own check valve so again if debris was trapped it could also cause a cylinder to drop or lift slow due to the check not lifting enough which would restricts the fluid flow.
the check valves can be removed and cleaned but the debris has come from somewhere probably cylinder seals or the seals on the cartridge check valves.

This probably why the dealer changes the pump, but can’t see why this would be the issue with a new van.

 

[TripleBee]

You talking about this guy?

As promised: Changing the electrohydraulic roof pump!

So as I promised last year, I wanted to keep you updated about changing the electrohydraulic roof pump. Therefore we need: a pump, some guts, a bit of spare time, and some helping hands. Up to now I only have the pump and the headlining taken off. First we take off the A-pillar handles...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

 

[Defender90]

You talking about this guy?

As promised: Changing the electrohydraulic roof pump!

So as I promised last year, I wanted to keep you updated about changing the electrohydraulic roof pump. Therefore we need: a pump, some guts, a bit of spare time, and some helping hands. Up to now I only have the pump and the headlining taken off. First we take off the A-pillar handles...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

Yes that’s the guy