International women’s day, good idea or not?

[Bellcrew]

Any discrimination against any sector of the population is bullying.

WE all come into this world innocent, all with the same colour of blood and brain as each other and all with an equal right to expect to be given the same opportunities in life regardless of gender, colour of skin, sexual orientation or physical disability.

To discriminate simply because you can, you can because your biology makes you stronger, your guns make you more powerful, your mob culture makes you overwhelming, is wrong.

@Velma's Dad hit it on the head. In a country that strives to deliver equality it is easy to forget that there are countries that will deprive whole sectors simply because they can. We export billions of pounds of arms to some of the most vile and repressive regimes against women in the world: We support regimes that practice the barbarity of FGM and where a man can mutilate a woman simply because it is recognised that she is property with no rights of her own.

Even in this wonderfully liberated country of ours, and I do not say that sarcastically because in comparison we are wonderfully liberated, my own family has experienced gender (and colour) discrimination against one of us: Another the victim of a very serious sexual assault that came close to murder: Another bigotry and assault simply because of gender orientation. It was only ten years ago that I was in court as a prosecution witness against someone who felt it was ok to physically threaten me whilst waving his willy at me, probably not something he would do against someone who matched him in terms of strength and size.

Why we have international women's day. To remind ourselves of the struggles that have been overcome, and the struggles that have yet to be overcome, simply to have a right of equal opportunity.

Let us not also forget the 118 names that Jess Phillips read out in Parliament, the names of the 118 women murdered in Britain in the year just gone because someone felt they could, simply because they had a physical superiority.

Of course the genital mutilation of baby boys is not barbarous at all even though it is ubiquitous for instance in the US for phony medical reasons but as they are not female why worry.
Men are also rather expert at killing themselves as the 4000 UK annual suicide success figures prove.
I would be interested to know what equal opportunities are currently denied to any woman in this country other than appearing on the front line in the next war or working down the new coal mine just approved..

 

[GrannyJen]

Of course the genital mutilation of baby boys is not barbarous at all even though it is ubiquitous for instance in the US for phony medical reasons but as they are not female why worry.
Men are also rather expert at killing themselves as the 4000 UK annual suicide success figures prove.
I would be interested to know what equal opportunities are currently denied to any woman in this country other than appearing on the front line in the next war or working down the new coal mine just approved..

Thankfully very few.

However the OP talks about International Women's day.

 

[AlisonF]

Of course the genital mutilation of baby boys is not barbarous at all even though it is ubiquitous for instance in the US for phony medical reasons but as they are not female why worry.
Men are also rather expert at killing themselves as the 4000 UK annual suicide success figures prove.
I would be interested to know what equal opportunities are currently denied to any woman in this country other than appearing on the front line in the next war or working down the new coal mine just approved..

Off topic. But I have worked alongside an American colleague who had 4 kids under 4. The first was a boy born in the US. Circumstised as you are also implying. The second a girl. They then moved (for work) to Norway not knowing they were already pregnant. And then twins. And then two boys.
Based on their background they opted for circumsicsion. This time, they were allowed to be closer involved.
I can tell you, he will never have any procedure like that done again if he ever had more children. And made it well known he no longer supported the procedure.
We’re off track. But you mentioned US and male ops.
As @GrannyJen said, this was a post about postive discrimination for women...

 

[GrannyJen]

Thankfully very few.

However the OP talks about International Women's day.

I will also assure you that on the 19th November I will be raising a glass to the many men in history who have stood up to and defeated discrimination and oppression, just as we do on International women's day, and also lighting a candle to all those men currently prisoners of conscience around the world.

It is not about Men v Women, it is about equality and freedom from oppression.

 

[Amarillo]

Interesting to see last night the predominantly male police reacting to a predominantly female vigil for a young woman allegedly murdered by a male policeman. Male police violence against peaceful female vigil. It reminded me somewhat of the violence against women at Greenham Common.

It was a disgrace.

 

[Dr-Snickers]

Interesting to see last night the predominantly male police reacting to a predominantly female vigil for a young woman allegedly murdered by a male policeman. Male police violence against peaceful female vigil. It reminded me somewhat of the violence against women at Greenham Common.

It was a disgrace.

Some of the scenes were awful and truly shocking. It is only right that an enquiry be launched to understand what went wrong.

Unfortunately, I also saw video evidence of some horrid scenes of angry, aggressive women screaming at police officers, who were patiently standing in a line and monitoring events. The angry mob accusing of them of doing nothing to protect women on a day-to-day basis. The women’s behaviour was clearly designed to provoke a reaction but the true irony was that in attending the vigil, they had almost certainly caused police officers to be redeployed, away from patrolling the very streets they were accused of not defending.

This has been a horrific crime, but I fear the situation is being hijacked by some who are insistent on painting all men/police with the same brush.

 

[GrannyJen]

As with all demonstrations there will be those who would hijack the event in order to pursue a different agenda. Sadly it appears last night that those with an alternative agenda to a peaceful vigil placed the police in a no-win situation and not able to win the police then managed to lose in spectacular fashion.

Last night Jo and I had a virtual wine evening with Sister no 1, and I am rather the worse for it this morning, but even though the events that traumatised her happened 40 years ago and she is largely unaffected by them now when tragic circumstances unfold as they have done this week then it impacts hard on her. How I would have loved to give her a hug, but the rules said I could not. Let's step back a moment and accept that whatever the emotions those rules were broken last night and the police have a duty to police,

 

[Amarillo]

Some of the scenes were awful and truly shocking. It is only right that an enquiry be launched to understand what went wrong.

Unfortunately, I also saw video evidence of some horrid scenes of angry, aggressive women screaming at police officers, who were patiently standing in a line and monitoring events. The angry mob accusing of them of doing nothing to protect women on a day-to-day basis. The women’s behaviour was clearly designed to provoke a reaction but the true irony was that in attending the vigil, they had almost certainly caused police officers to be redeployed, away from patrolling the very streets they were accused of not defending.

This has been a horrific crime, but I fear the situation is being hijacked by some who are insistent on painting all men/police with the same brush.

The intent was to have a properly marshalled and socially distanced vigil. That was effectively banned by a threat of a £10,000 fine for the organised. That ban led to an unorganised and unsocially distanced vigil.

Who is to blame:

The police on duty?
The vigilists?
The organisers?
The police command?

I think the primary responsibility lies with the command.

 

[T6 CFO]

Inequality is perhaps the biggest issue we face, be it gender, colour religion, whatever.

It therefore needs to be rooted out, wherever it is, therefore having a day where issues concerning woman are highlighted must be a good thing.

Inequality causes division and only by being united will we eliminate it.

I have an issue where any area of equality is exploited for personal or political gain.

Above all I despise those choosing to inflame issues with ill considered self inflating statements.

I can understand lashing out by victims but supposed intellectuals using social media to create division are beyond contempt.

Creating hatred and division seems to be the objective.





Mike

 

[Amarillo]

As with all demonstrations there will be those who would hijack the event in order to pursue a different agenda. Sadly it appears last night that those with an alternative agenda to a peaceful vigil placed the police in a no-win situation and not able to win the police then managed to lose in spectacular fashion.

Last night Jo and I had a virtual wine evening with Sister no 1, and I am rather the worse for it this morning, but even though the events that traumatised her happened 40 years ago and she is largely unaffected by them now when tragic circumstances unfold as they have done this week then it impacts hard on her. How I would have loved to give her a hug, but the rules said I could not. Let's step back a moment and accept that whatever the emotions those rules were broken last night and the police have a duty to police,

The police police by consent. They lost that consent last night. Had the organisers been permitted to properly marshal the vigil those scenes are unlikely to have occurred. The blame rests with the police command who failed to see the bigger picture.

 

[Dr-Snickers]

The intent was to have a properly marshalled and socially distanced vigil. That was effectively banned by a threat of a £10,000 fine for the organised. That ban led to an unorganised and unsocially distanced vigil.

Who is to blame:

The police on duty?
The vigilists?
The organisers?
The police command?

I think the primary responsibility lies with the command.

Definitely understand your points and in non-covid times, I hope things might have been different.

I do struggle to understand why the coordinators of the vigil decided it was appropriate to organise it in the first place though. What gives them the right to organise an illegal mass gathering in Sarah’s name and then blame the police when they have no choice but to uphold the law? Why was a mass gathering more appropriate than the candle suggestion in the first place? The whole country could have got behind the latter and not just those who live close to London.

The police force, like any key worker service, will be struggling with staff numbers due to self-isolation and sick leave. Having to coordinate a response to this will have caused unnecessary strain elsewhere. Was that really necessary? Did it help the cause of keeping people safe?

 

[Amarillo]

Definitely understand your points and in non-covid times, I hope things might have been different.

I do struggle to understand why the coordinators of the vigil decided it was appropriate to organise it in the first place though. What gives them the right to organise an illegal mass gathering in Sarah’s name and then blame the police when they have no choice but to uphold the law? Why was a mass gathering more appropriate than the candle suggestion in the first place? The whole country could have got behind the latter and not just those who live close to London.

The police force, like any key worker service, will be struggling with staff numbers due to self-isolation and sick leave. Having to coordinate a response to this will have caused unnecessary strain elsewhere. Was that really necessary? Did it help the cause of keeping people safe?

There have been numerous demonstrations which have been permitted or overlooked. There has been a GMB picket at British Gas “fire and rehire” around the corner from me for weeks.

So why single out this one off socially distanced vigil for police action? It defies reason.

Two and a half years ago I was kettled by the police. I happened to be cycling over Waterloo bridge with my two little boys in tow (in a trailer). At the same time a bunch of eco-warriors had closed off the bridge to motor traffic and planted a number of fruit trees along the central reservation. At the very moment that we cycled across the police decided to move in and we were kettled, the only means of escape (other than jumping) was down narrow and steep windy stone steps - can you imagine that with a 3 & 4 year old, a bike and trailer! Effectively we were imprisoned, and for three hours no amount of pleading would allow our escape. My boys were forced to defecate in the gutter. Eventually I got the attention of a passing inspector who allowed us through the police cordons and off the bridge.

So I do have direct experience of how rank and file officers can treat obviously innocent people with utter contempt.

 

[Dr-Snickers]

I should add I think the issue of safety anywhere, be it on our streets, in our homes or anywhere else, is of the utmost importance.

Edited as I realised I overshared. Apologies!

I have had many experiences where I felt unsafe throughout my life. I’m the mother of two wonderful daughters and I have to hope that they won’t have the experiences I have had.

There have been numerous demonstrations which have been permitted or overlooked. There has been a GMB picket at British Gas “fire and rehire” around the corner from me for weeks.

So why single out this one off socially distanced vigil for police action? It defies reason.

Two and a half years ago I was kettled by the police. I happened to be cycling over Waterloo bridge with my two little boys in tow (in a trailer). At the same time a bunch of eco-warriors had closed off the bridge to motor traffic and planted a number of fruit trees along the central reservation. At the very moment that we cycled across the police decided to move in and we were kettled, the only means of escape (other than jumping) was down narrow and steep windy stone steps - can you imagine that with a 3 & 4 year old, a bike and trailer! Effectively we were imprisoned, and for three hours no amount of pleading would allow our escape. My boys were forced to defecate in the gutter. Eventually I got the attention of a passing inspector who allowed us through the police cordons and off the bridge.

So I do have direct experience of how rank and file officers can treat obviously innocent people with utter contempt.

I’m genuinely sorry that you and your boys have experienced something like that.

 

[66tim99]

Brave viewpoint. Many will argue that it is mens' day every day, so no need to offer a one off celebration to men.

I agree with your general sentiments though, equality should just mean that. Same rules for all, same treatment for all.

Sadly that isn't the case and never will be. Genderwise there are fantastic differences between the sexes, we aren't "equal" in that we are very different, some more so than others. We don't celebrate those differences.

In wider equality terms historic reasons mean some have more money, education, options than other groups. Some groups practice beliefs that still progogate values than are outdated to most of us. Some segments of society will always look after their own or ignore the rules regarding equality. One bug bear is that Black history month, an American product, should really be Diversity month. There's a good reason that British version of history records things differently to othes, take the French and Napoleon as an example.

I do think we have reached the point where the PC brigade mean that what many may feel to be a valid opinion cannot be aired lest it upsets some lobby or another. Very hard to voice even the most sensible of views these days. Without wishing the Brxxxt word on this thread things may have been different if the silent majority hadn't been silenced by the pc crowd for years, stifling debate.

But happy International Womens' day to all.

Turns out tomorrow is national barbie day ( somewhat ironic), national meatball day and national get over it day. Who knew?

My only disagreement is that equality doesn’t equal ‘same treatment for all’. The Equality Act recognises people may need to be treated differently to be treated equal. A wheelchair user needs a ramp; a single Mum needs flexibility in her hours.
Sad that we need an International Women’s Day, but there are many metrics that prove we have a long way to go so I support it.

 

[GrannyJen]

So I do have direct experience of how rank and file officers can treat obviously innocent people with utter contempt.

A man drives his van on to the pavement blocking my path. He then screams at me to get in. Fortunately there is a church green to my left so I was able to go through the gate and follow a footpath across the green. The man then drives round the green and when I get to the gate at the other side he is blocking my path. I have to either change direction or squeeze past. I am now desperately looking for help as he exposes himself. Waving his willy at me he's screaming for my phone number. Trying to keep things calm I give him the number "of where I work", before hurrying off. He then drives past me and again blocks my path by driving on to the pavement. Fortunately this time I have a passageway to my left leading into the square where my flat was located.

Ten minutes later I am being interviewed by two male officers. J'accuse. Why did I even talk to him, why didn't I go a different way home (carrying 4 heavy Sainsbury's carrier bags), I wasn't physically harmed (as in "what's the fuss all about"), I couldn't be that terrified if I had time to stand there staring at his van memorising the registration plate and taking notes of a document carrier on the passenger seat, .... and so it went on. I could even see them questioning in their looks about the way I was dressed for an early morning trip to the supermarket, the make up, smart clothes, jewellery (I was due to give a lecture early that afternoon)...

Fortunately two things happened or else nothing would have happened. The registration was traced to someone who had form for serious sexual assault and a number of other complaints were in the pipeline but the women in question had been intimidated into withdrawing their complaint. Secondly my next interview was with a female detective sergeant who took an entirely different approach. She wanted someone to stand firm and get this bloke banged up so other women would come forward.

So yes, my experience has not been wonderful, neither was my Sister's when she was attacked outside Albany park station almost certainly by John Duffy: I found the original police interview to be insensitive, condescending and totally devoid of any understanding of just how intimidating a man can be to a woman in a potentially violent confrontation but I still say the police have a right to interfere when the law was being broken as it was last night.

 

[LemonDrop]

My take on International Women's Day - Not sure if it's a good idea or not not bu what I would say is it is completely useless in addressing the day-to-day discrimination women face. Our society has sexist views totally ingrained and these need to be changed at a grass roots level as well as legislative. One without the other is pointless. Same as racist views. But I am not sure things will ever change TBH.

I've mainly worked in a male oriented industry and love the banter, love working with Men (very different to working with women) but I've been assaulted at work and assaulted outside work. Sadly, I am prepared to educate my daughters on how to handle this. I would like to protect them forever but I won't be able to as they grow up.

Off topic, but my take on the Sarah Everard vigil: Given the strength of feeling (mainly because of the fact this heinous crime was committed by a policeman who had been allowed to get away with flashing a few days previous), this vigil totally should have been allowed to go ahead and as it wasn't, the police should have acted with a light touch. The police completely arsed this one up.

 

[GrannyJen]

My take on International Women's Day - Not sure if it's a good idea or not not bu what I would say is it is completely useless in addressing the day-to-day discrimination women face. Our society has sexist views totally ingrained and these need to be changed at a grass roots level as well as legislative. One without the other is pointless. Same as racist views. But I am not sure things will ever change TBH.

I've mainly worked in a male oriented industry and love the banter, love working with Men (very different to working with women) but I've been assaulted at work and assaulted outside work. Sadly, I am prepared to educate my daughters on how to handle this. I would like to protect them forever but I won't be able to as they grow up.

Off topic, but my take on the Sarah Everard vigil: Given the strength of feeling (mainly because of the fact this heinous crime was committed by a policeman who had been allowed to get away with flashing a few days previous), this vigil totally should have been allowed to go ahead and as it wasn't, the police should have acted with a light touch. The police completely arsed this one up.

I think the candle vigil was the way to go, a group vigil when the police would have a duty to intervene was asking for trouble. However I completely agree with you about the strength of feeling. Too much intimidation is just simply tolerated because it's quite useless to try to do anything else and sometimes it is necessary to say very loudly indeed "enough is enough".

However what got me in your post was this: "Given the strength of feeling (mainly because of the fact this heinous crime was committed by a policeman who had been allowed to get away with flashing a few days previous), ".... in my post before yours that was precisely the attitude I met when interviewed by two male officers .... "it's only a flasher".

I suspect Duffy and Mulcahy were flashers at one stage in their evil development.

 

[LemonDrop]

Exactly. I suspect they were too - or something along similar (intimidating) lines.

I think the news of the flashing incident in this case was the straw that broke the camel's back.

The isn't a "women's thing" by the way. I doubt whether there are many men who think flashing is normal behaviour.

 

[Mickyb123]

Moral dilema here!
The vigil for this poor woman was actually cancelled by the organiser!

However a vigil went ahead, looking at the tv coverage it became less of a vigil more a demonstration demanding that the authorities eg the police act to prevent this sort of thing happening again. Ie police need to police.
So when the police took action to break up an action that is currently illegal they are in the wrong.
So the police are in the wrong for not taking action, then they are wrong for taking action.

The suggestion that it was predominantly a “male” police action against a predominantly “female” demo action is ludicrous, the officers male and female on duty that night were doing there job, breaking up a gathering that is against the law currently for health reasons. Why did the people paying there respects not just do that, pay respects and go home?

Compairing it to Greenham Common is quite interesting, and making it a gender is, the reporting on Greenham Common happily saw one side of the picture.
Example, the young RAF copper who spent 3 weeks in a hospital bed recovering from the injuries he received while carrying out his duties! Those injuries, deep gouges in his back from sharpened sticks covered in excrement inflicted on him by a group of women protesters. Yes I know this person and he still has the scars.
How did it happen, he reached up to stop a protester climbing the fence. Just doing his job.

So not everything is quite Black and White!

Why did this particular event end up like it did? It was not just down to the police

 

[Amarillo]

I still say the police have a right to interfere when the law was being broken as it was last night.

Has it been established that leaving home to attend a vigil is illegal? All the law appears to say on the matter is you should not leave the place where you are living without reasonable excuse. Face coverings outside and the 2m rule are advice not legal obligations. There are laws on gatherings but I think they are directed at organisers though participants can be fined also. But I’d have thought that a gathering needs an organiser.

 

[66tim99]

Of course the genital mutilation of baby boys is not barbarous at all even though it is ubiquitous for instance in the US for phony medical reasons but as they are not female why worry.
Men are also rather expert at killing themselves as the 4000 UK annual suicide success figures prove.
I would be interested to know what equal opportunities are currently denied to any woman in this country other than appearing on the front line in the next war or working down the new coal mine just approved..

Since 2018 women have been able to fight on the front line.
https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2018/10/women-in-ground-close-combat-roles/
But it seems they still can’t always expect to earn the same as their male counterparts, or go to work or walk down the street without being abused or worse...etc etc

 

[OGII]

Not sure how many would gave heard Lord Paddick, ex Met asst commissioner/ liberal mayoral candidate some years back speak on the organised vigil issue this morning ( on a local BBC London political program, I caught it by accident)

The judge ruling on Thursday on whether the vigil could go ahead left it for the Met and organisers to come to a suitable covid compliant plan. Apparently there was no real organisation or appetite from those raising the case for the Met to agree plans with, hence them ruling the event couldn't go ahead.

If this account is correct, and let's face it Paddick always seemed a sensible voice, then the police had no choice. As Grannyjen says, it appears a very noble and worthwhile cause was hijacked by a few with a different agenda. Sadly this often seems to be the case.

Sadly I'm not really sure how the main issue can be resolved. The police cannot be everywhere, there isn't a good samaritan willing to step in on every street and as much as you can educate men on how to behave in ways that mean women are aware you are crossing the street to give space etc. there will always be the tiny majority that do what is unthinkable to most of us.

 

[Amarillo]

Not sure how many would gave heard Lord Paddick, ex Met asst commissioner/ liberal mayoral candidate some years back speak on the organised vigil issue this morning ( on a local BBC London political program, I caught it by accident)

The judge ruling on Thursday on whether the vigil could go ahead left it for the Met and organisers to come to a suitable covid compliant plan. Apparently there was no real organisation or appetite from those raising the case for the Met to agree plans with, hence them ruling the event couldn't go ahead.

If this account is correct, and let's face it Paddick always seemed a sensible voice, then the police had no choice. As Grannyjen says, it appears a very noble and worthwhile cause was hijacked by a few with a different agenda. Sadly this often seems to be the case.

Sadly I'm not really sure how the main issue can be resolved. The police cannot be everywhere, there isn't a good samaritan willing to step in on every street and as much as you can educate men on how to behave in ways that mean women are aware you are crossing the street to give space etc. there will always be the tiny majority that do what is unthinkable to most of us.

If the Met and organisers were asked to come up with a plan, and the Met were uncooperative, I’d have thought it’s up to the organisers to formulate their own plan.

I read somewhere that 73% of homicide victims are male. I can’t get my head around whether or not that makes men three time more vulnerable than women. Perhaps it depends on the gender of the murderer which is ~90% male.

 

[GrannyJen]

Not sure how many would gave heard Lord Paddick, ex Met asst commissioner/ liberal mayoral candidate some years back speak on the organised vigil issue this morning ( on a local BBC London political program, I caught it by accident)

The judge ruling on Thursday on whether the vigil could go ahead left it for the Met and organisers to come to a suitable covid compliant plan. Apparently there was no real organisation or appetite from those raising the case for the Met to agree plans with, hence them ruling the event couldn't go ahead.

If this account is correct, and let's face it Paddick always seemed a sensible voice, then the police had no choice. As Grannyjen says, it appears a very noble and worthwhile cause was hijacked by a few with a different agenda. Sadly this often seems to be the case.

Sadly I'm not really sure how the main issue can be resolved. The police cannot be everywhere, there isn't a good samaritan willing to step in on every street and as much as you can educate men on how to behave in ways that mean women are aware you are crossing the street to give space etc. there will always be the tiny majority that do what is unthinkable to most of us.

Brian Paddick.

A brave man.

As you say, the police cannot be everywhere.

Anyone who for whatever reason, gender, sexual orientation, religion etc, are vulnerable must take care of themselves and try not to be where it is unsafe. I deliberately ignored racial, for anyone of colour there is no alternative, you cannot hide colour like you can religion or sexual orientation.

There are streets that I would not walk down, bars and clubs that I would not step into, company I would avoid, but it happens. I know the streets that Sarah walked down, I was brought up in Brixton, the time was quite reasonable, Poynders road would have been busy. Sadly as you say, always a tiny minority.

Vile creatures like Levi Bellfield can seemingly snatch people off the streets in busy places in broad daylight and not be noticed, there is no way you can police against that happening.

I don't think this sad event has evidenced the streets being less safe or policing less effective, just sadly there will always be those that for the poor victim there is no protection against and, unfortunately, those vulnerable today feel more vulnerable.

 

[OGII]

If the Met and organisers were asked to come up with a plan, and the Met were uncooperative, I’d have thought it’s up to the organisers to formulate their own plan.

Paddick suggested the Met tried to cooperate, there just wasn't anyone acting as a suitable organiser able to give assurances etc