Is it possible to retrofit 3 seat bench in place of 2 in Ocean?

[Esandar#1]

I clearly need to borrow an Ocean for one of our family camping trips as clearly there must be some huge 'spec compromises' that we suffer in our Beach?! lol (I do have to manually pop the roof up and down - a hardship I am happy to live with, but I'm struggling to think of any after that!)

Tim - you've been given loads of good, balanced advice. As the owner of a 2017 Beach I cannot sing the praises of it's versatility highly enough! We have two boys, aged 10 and 13 and even with just two boys and no buily in kitchen, space in the van can be tight on a cold wet night. Therefore I think it you went for an Ocean with an extra seat you'd actually suffer the following - each time you camp you'll have an extra seat right in the way of all the kitchen equipment that you may or may not want to cook on/ wash up in! And I cannot imagine 5 of you trying to move round your van on a wet night with the extra seat. Take out the extra seat, and the kitchen, and suddenly you have a large empty van, with a really big downstairs area, making the space inside the van hugely useable, plus you won't have to carry around a whole kitchen set up 40-45 weeks of the year when not camping. I completely get why the Ocean is a great vehicle for couples or families with two young children, but once the children grow, or number more than two, the Beach is a fabulous evolution of the of the California.

We ordered two addditional seats with our that turn our 5 seater Beach into a 6 or 7 seater into a Caravelle whenever we want. The seats are quite heavy but once in the van easy enough to fit in and out, and this has opened up many opportunties to take extra friends or family on day trips without the need for two vehicles.

 

[Digger]

As the proud owner of an Ocean I agree with more than 4 occupants the Beach makes more sense. The Ocean, for 2 or 3, is the perfect vehicle and in my opinion far better choice. Always remember though if increasing seating capacity inform your insurer. I know from my broker failure to do so invalidates your insurance.

 

[MattBW]

Yes and if you add an extra seat even a VW factory one, get your V5 updated too.

 

[Tim Moreman]

Interesting but my kids are. 7, 11 and 14 so I fear the Cali is becoming less of an option. Giving serious thought to a Volksleisure LGB conversion - so far ticks al the right boxes, but struggling to find reviews from current users. Comes close to Cali spec and some interesting options are available
.tim

 

[Borris]

Interesting but my kids are. 7, 11 and 14 so I fear the Cali is becoming less of an option. Giving serious thought to a Volksleisure LGB conversion - so far ticks al the right boxes, but struggling to find reviews from current users. Comes close to Cali spec and some interesting options are available
.tim

As your main problem is finding adequate seating and space for your growing family, I fear that you will find exactly the same problem with most conversions.

In the end, you can either have space and safe, tested seating for five adults or you can have reduced space and/or seating in order to accomodate all of the fitted kitchen gubbins etc etc. You could choose a long wheel base vehicle but if not you cannot make a SWB van any bigger inside. Of course, even the LWB will only give you extra length which isn't that useful for providing room for extra passengers in a conversion. It would often be slightly more difficult to find a long enough parking space!

The only thing that I have seen which might be worth looking into is a swiveling double front passenger seat. These can be fitted to transporters and are OK providing the three bods sharing the cab aren't collectively too wide.

 

[Jay586]

I have the bench seat with retrofit swivel. Erm, you need to be close friends & it's not that comfortable as if it's off a panel van with a bulkhead, they don't recline without modification.

 

[WelshGas]

Front Double Passengers Seat reclining hinge.

http://outdoortechnical.com/

Front Double Passenger Seat Swivel

http://www.kiravans.co.uk/t5-double-seat-swivel-uk-right-hand-drive-model/


Double Passenger Seat

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seat-VW-T5-T6-double-bench-passenger-seat-SIMORA-front-LHD-/263108195135

 

[Jay586]

That's the modification for the hinge, I can't quite bring myself to get it yet...the alternative apparently is some washers under the front seat bolts.

The swivel is a bit tricky to turn until you get the hang of it but it's ok once turned...

 

[Bellcrew]

I have the bench seat with retrofit swivel. Erm, you need to be close friends & it's not that comfortable as if it's off a panel van with a bulkhead, they don't recline without modification.

Now this is what we want, swap it in and out when we need a MPV/family day out etc.
1990CaliforniaAdditionalSeatSalesBrochureGermanWM (1).pdf

 

[Jay586]

It is very useful having the extra bit of seating space as we don't have seats in the back. You should be able to pick one up easily as people swap to the singles.

 

[Mochael]

Sorry to raise an old thread but looking at a SIMILAR thing but with 4 kids. Is it not possible to add a second, rear facing two seater bench? So there are 2 two seat benches facing each other?

 

[andyinluton]

It has been discussed before, in summary

You cant fit two two seaters facing forward, theres not enough room
It won't fit facing backwards, the seat base is not symmetrical
You would be overweight

The only half sensible option for 6 in an ocean is a double front passenger seat & a fifth seat.

 

[rippers]

We hired a California Ocean and the two seat bench had a lap belt in the middle. The guy was saying the factory seat has mounting points for a lap belt they just aren't utilised. No idea whether it was legal or what ever but if definitely had it

 

[Borris]

It has been discussed before, in summary

You cant fit two two seaters facing forward, theres not enough room
It won't fit facing backwards, the seat base is not symmetrical
You would be overweight

The only half sensible option for 6 in an ocean is a double front passenger seat & a fifth seat.

Anyone needing to carry six people in a camper van would surely be better off with a Beach. An SE/Ocean simply isn't designed for that. At least with a Beach all six persons would be comfortable on seats designed and extensively tested by VW. Unless the passengers are small children, the fifth seat option in an Ocean is only practical with the rear bed base removed, otherwise, I'm told that there's very little leg room.

Also, with six adults on board an Ocean you would be very close to the maximum Gross Vehicle Weight. The GVW on an Ocean is 3080kgs and the pay load ranges between 512 and 562kgs depending on the model. The Beach has a much higher payload. The Unladen Weight (GVW minus Payload) includes approximately 90% fuel load and 75kgs for driver. Therefore in the worse case scenario (and if you are going to have six seats it has to be considered), the payload would have to accomodate the extra weight of five adults, the heavy swivel captains seat, any extra weight provide by the double front seat and swivel mechanism, all factory options above the standard stock Ocean, all dealer fitted accessories, all camping and personal equipment, gas cylinder, and 30kgs of fresh water. Then there would be some who would want to add a roof box and bike rack with bikes as well.

I've often looked at some Calis and wondered how many were actually overloaded? With six seats in an Ocean that would be quite easy to acheive. Any attempt to carry more people in a vehicle than it was designed and tested to carry would undoubtely change its driving characteristics and may even make the vehicle dangerous. There are also insurance implications to consider as well. You would have to notify them of the extra seating mods and they might well get awkward and refuse to insure you.

 

[andyinluton]

I've often looked at some Calis and wondered how many were actually overloaded? With six seats in an Ocean that would be quite easy to acheive..

I have to disagree with that, the only way to get six people into an ocean / SE is to make sure at least 3 of them are small.
Once you do have 6 in there is very little room left so nowhere to actually put anything that would put you overweight. We've managed 6 people with 2 fifth seats in that configuration, theres room for a airplane carry on size suitcase each, plus whatever you can fit in the cupboards/ fridge.

On the other hand a seven seater beach could have the same 2x fifth seats, an extra person and still have room for loads of stuff in the boot so far easier to overload.

 

[Bellcrew]

I have to disagree with that, the only way to get six people into an ocean / SE is to make sure at least 3 of them are small.
Once you do have 6 in there is very little room left so nowhere to actually put anything that would put you overweight. We've managed 6 people with 2 fifth seats in that configuration, theres room for a airplane carry on size suitcase each, plus whatever you can fit in the cupboards/ fridge.

On the other hand a seven seater beach could have the same 2x fifth seats, an extra person and still have room for loads of stuff in the boot so far easier to overload.

As has been pointed out before the Westfalia T4 California did offer an extra removable double seat as an option, it was fitted with seat belts/headrests, much lighter than the normal multi-function fitted seat. Often available on the German Ebay site but unfortunately appears to need different floor tracks than those fitted in the SE/Ocean. A modern tested equivalent would be ideal for when the Ocean is used as a MPV. Four normal sized adults and a couple of small children would be our maximum load.

 

[andyinluton]

I looked into all sorts of options - we needed 6 seats for 2 weeks a year & just the 4 for the other 50, the closest I came to a working solution was having a double front seat mounted onto the base of a fifth seat - that looked good until you realise theres nothing to attach the left side seatbelt top to.

We looked to see if it was possible to loose a load of trim round the 5th seat base so you could overlap 2 of them.

I went to a specialist who converts vans into minibuses etc - if it had the old t4 floor rails it wouldn't be a problem but no-one has any experience with the cali type rails.

In the end 5 years later the twins are now 18 & we just leave them behind.

 

[Borris]

I have to disagree with that, the only way to get six people into an ocean / SE is to make sure at least 3 of them are small.
Once you do have 6 in there is very little room left so nowhere to actually put anything that would put you overweight. We've managed 6 people with 2 fifth seats in that configuration, theres room for a airplane carry on size suitcase each, plus whatever you can fit in the cupboards/ fridge.

On the other hand a seven seater beach could have the same 2x fifth seats, an extra person and still have room for loads of stuff in the boot so far easier to overload.

If you say that seating six adults cannot be done then I'll take your word for it. I've never tried. However, you said "The only half sensible option for six in an ocean is a double front passenger seat & a fifth seat". Are you saying that even with the rear bed base removed and the two seat bench pushed back as far as it will go, you still couldn't seat three adults in the rear? I really don't know the answer, but why would VW offer a fifth seat option if the three rear seats cannot be used by adults under any circumstances? As for the double front passenger seat, I had one in my old T4 van and that seated two adults on many occasions!

Of course it's possible to overload both models, as it is any vehicle and I'm pretty certain that some owners do. If having six adults on board is possible then their combined weight along with the extra seats and other factors previously mentioned could take it over the GVW.

 

[andyinluton]

Sorry, what I meant was if you fit 2x 5th seats as we did you won't fit 6 adults in. you have rear 1 seat with no leg room at all, 1 with limited room & 2 with loads of space. In addition the rear bench has to go so far back that the head restraints are under the rear overhead cupboard so limited head room on two seats. The boot also ends up only about 18 inches from back of seat to the boot lid hence limited luggage capacity.

The advantage compared to a double front seat is that you don't actually make any changes to the van so you can whip it back out when not needed. A carefully worded note from a VW garage stating the extra seat is a genuine VW optional item fitted to factory fitted rails utilising the standard mechanism should get you a change to the V5 & keeps the insurance company happy.

Fitting just one 5th seat is fine, don't remove the rear shelf & you get about 6 inches of leg room, remove it & you can have decent room in all 3 rear seats with no restrictions. Couple that with a front double & you've got a sensible although permanent, useable 6 seater.

 

[Borris]

Sorry, what I meant was if you fit 2x 5th seats as we did you won't fit 6 adults in. you have rear 1 seat with no leg room at all, 1 with limited room & 2 with loads of space. In addition the rear bench has to go so far back that the head restraints are under the rear overhead cupboard so limited head room on two seats. The boot also ends up only about 18 inches from back of seat to the boot lid hence limited luggage capacity.

The advantage compared to a double front seat is that you don't actually make any changes to the van so you can whip it back out when not needed. A carefully worded note from a VW garage stating the extra seat is a genuine VW optional item fitted to factory fitted rails utilising the standard mechanism should get you a change to the V5 & keeps the insurance company happy.

Fitting just one 5th seat is fine, don't remove the rear shelf & you get about 6 inches of leg room, remove it & you can have decent room in all 3 rear seats with no restrictions. Couple that with a front double & you've got a sensible although permanent, useable 6 seater.

Thanks Andy,
I'm still unclear on the two fifth seats idea. I didn't know you could fit two in an SE/Ocean. Do they go in without modification? If I've understood you correctly, it sounds like they can't sit side by side hence the lack of leg room. Is this correct?

 

[andyinluton]

Yes, 2 just about fit, but as you worked out the SE only has 3 rails compared to the 4 of a beach, you have to stagger them not put them side by side so you end up in a 2 1 1 2 seating formation. with no modifications to the van at all.

I did seriously consider 2x 2 seat benches but the bench is a lot deeper than the 5th seat & even when slid fully forward there wasn't a big enough gap to get in and out the door to the rearmost bench.

In our formation all the seats had easy access to the side door & all occupants could still get through the gap between the front seats as an alternative access.

I'm not comfortable with only having one door being the only way out in the event of an accident & thats the only thing I would have against a front double seat.

 

[andyinluton]

See below for available space:

 

[Amarillo]

Thanks Andy,
I'm still unclear on the two fifth seats idea. I didn't know you could fit two in an SE/Ocean. Do they go in without modification? If I've understood you correctly, it sounds like they can't sit side by side hence the lack of leg room. Is this correct?

In theory it is possible to squish 9 seats into a Beach.

Probably best not to leave the sanctuary of your driveway with that set up!


Follow my blog: www.au-revoir.eu

 

[andyinluton]

Slightly better head & legroom in the beach as you can move the bench a few inches further back due to the lack of overhead cupboard & the protruding mounts for the bed base.

 

[Borris]

Yes, 2 just about fit, but as you worked out the SE only has 3 rails compared to the 4 of a beach, you have to stagger them not put them side by side so you end up in a 2 1 1 2 seating formation. with no modifications to the van at all.

I did seriously consider 2x 2 seat benches but the bench is a lot deeper than the 5th seat & even when slid fully forward there wasn't a big enough gap to get in and out the door to the rearmost bench.

In our formation all the seats had easy access to the side door & all occupants could still get through the gap between the front seats as an alternative access.

I'm not comfortable with only having one door being the only way out in the event of an accident & thats the only thing I would have against a front double seat.

Now I understand. I couldn't see how you had two swivel seats fitted to three floor rails. It never occurred to me that there would be enough space lengthways to fit them in a staggered formation as you have done. So one of the swivels has very little leg room and the other has a lot. The same situation for the rear bench passengers. It's an interesting compromise and now I can see that it would work for six but only if you had two very small chidren to occupy the seats with next to no leg room.