Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Corradobrit]

Wow! now theres a twist in the plot if I ever saw one.

We have 03S bellows and are patiently waiting till theres a proven fix.

Ours leaked in the first 3 hrs of light drizzle (first exposure to rain from new). We raised the claim with our dealer straight away and have bought a wrap to tide us over until we press go on the fix.

Now Im wondering if I should test again...

Trouble is the 03S are not being replaced on the say so of the owner. They have to be tested and proven leakers at the dealership. If it's true that a wetting cycle is needed to seal the seams then the bellows would not be failing with such regularity when tested for warranty purposes.
This would be too easy a solution and inconsistent with most experience.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

Trouble is the 03S are not being replaced on the say so of the owner. They have to be tested and proven leakers at the dealership. If it's true that a wetting cycle is needed to seal the seams then the bellows would not be failing with such regularity when tested for warranty purposes.
This would be too easy a solution and inconsistent with most experience.

I’m inclined to agree, though I remain ever hopeful that a simple solution will work!

 

[Corradobrit]

I’m inclined to agree, though I remain ever hopeful that a simple solution will work!

Me too. In fact I will be hoping for a little rain next week when I tour Saxony. I have only had one episode of rain + leaking, so I want to further test to see if it's repeatable.

 

[P600BOO]

This is great. Notwithstanding we shouldnt have to treat the bellows, at least you seem to have found a fix. I wonder if what you have done can help hone in on the exact cause - the seams?, the fabric itself?.. both?

It's the seams / stitched areas that leak. I think that the wrong thread has been used by the manufacturer. As I have said, I have sprayed all the stitched areas with Aqua Tex and I have no water coming in even in heavey downpours.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

It's the seams / stitched areas that leak. I think that the wrong thread has been used by the manufacturer. As I have said, I have sprayed all the stitched areas with Aqua Tex and I have no water coming in even in heavey downpours.

Do you think the stitching has expanded with the treatment or that the treatment has filled and voids?

 

[andyinluton]

Do you think the stitching has expanded with the treatment or that the treatment has filled and voids?

I think that’s exactly what has happened on mine ( the thread has expanded as it did on my previous calis) I did say that on the first page of this thread……

 

[P600BOO]

Do you think the stitching has expanded with the treatment or that the treatment has filled and voids?

Bit of both and it has also stopped the thread wicking water through.

 

[P600BOO]

Do you think the stitching has expanded with the treatment or that the treatment has filled and voids?

I also think that people who use bungees on their poptop also cause the fabric to leak.
It is rubbing on the fabric on the corner seams.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I think that’s exactly what has happened on mine ( the thread has expanded as it did on my previous calis) I did say that on the first page of this thread……

No that’s not what I meant. Is it the stitching expanding or is it the treatment?

 

[flying banana]

Im off to the lake district for 18 days next week. If anyone wants to lend me their 6.1 I'll give it a proper testing for you.

 

[myvanrodney]

Trouble is the 03S are not being replaced on the say so of the owner. They have to be tested and proven leakers at the dealership. If it's true that a wetting cycle is needed to seal the seams then the bellows would not be failing with such regularity when tested for warranty purposes.
This would be too easy a solution and inconsistent with most experience.

yes i think I agree. If it was supposed to be 'wetted' by design, then surely VW would have jumped on this as soon as the reports of failing bellows started to come through

 

[P600BOO]

I also think that people who use bungees on their poptop also cause the fabric to leak.
It is rubbing on the fabric on the corner seams.

Ch1pbutty
Why do you disagree about those that use a bungee possibly causing leak problems

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Ch1pbutty
Why do you disagree about those that use a bungee possibly causing leak problems

Had one fitted for 5 years on an 11 year old van, roof canvas was leak & tear free.

Took it off a few weeks ago whilst taking photos to sell the van, pinched bellows in the scissor mech when I closed the roof (thankfully no damage!)…then put the bungee back in for the new buyer.

 

[ArunAlec]

Had one fitted for 5 years on an 11 year old van, roof canvas was leak & tear free.

Took it off a few weeks ago whilst taking photos to sell the van, pinched bellows in the scissor mech when I closed the roof (thankfully no damage!)…then put the bungee back in for the new buyer.

Same here 5years with a bungee, no problems. I think the continual folding of the roof canvas along the same crease lines would be more likely to do damage, but it doesn’t.

 

[Paul1]

Same here 5years with a bungee, no problems. I think the continual folding of the roof canvas along the same crease lines would be more likely to do damage, but it doesn’.

Same here 5years with a bungee, no problems. I think the continual folding of the roof canvas along the same crease lines would be more likely to do damage, but it doesn’t.

Bungees ? We all have different opinions about these. I wouldn’t have one, some are far too tight and put added strain on already tight material and perhaps it’s why the bellows got caught in the sissors because it was stretched and baggy ?

 

[This_one_goes_to_eleven]

Rain 3 - 04SA mid dec bellows 0

 

[lohr500]

Although not as bad as @This_one_goes_to_eleven or @Elmo3 , the horizontal and curved stitching has been leaking slightly today on my Jan 04S bellows.




Yesterday, when the bellows were bone dry, I gave both the inside and outside seams on the vertical stitching two coats of Aqua Tex.

Overnight and through today, the rain has been modest with wind blowing onto the front face of the bellows. I even had the hose pipe in sprinkler mode playing onto the front and sides for a few minutes.

There has been absolutely no signs of any leakage through the treated seams, so I think I also have a result with the Aqua Tex.

Once the bellows dry out, I will apply Aqua Tex internally and externally to the stitching that I didn't treat yesterday to see if this cures the remaining leaks that I am still seeing.

I'll continue testing as often as I can to see how effective the Aqua Tex treatment is.

For anyone new to the discussion who has 04S bellows manufactured after 9th November, please take part in the poll so we can continue to build up a picture of the current failure rate as seen by members of the forum :

04S Bellow review poll.

Unfortunately I can't edit the poll title. For clarity I am discussing 04S bellows manufactured after 9th November 2023. On behalf of all of those affected, I'm wanting to build a picture on the performance of the latest 04S bellows fitted after 9th November 2023, based on members' real life...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

 

[This_one_goes_to_eleven]

Although not as bad as @This_one_goes_to_eleven or @Elmo3 , the horizontal and curved stitching has been leaking slightly today on my Jan 04S bellows.

View attachment 121272
View attachment 121273

Yesterday, when the bellows were bone dry, I gave both the inside and outside seams on the vertical stitching two coats of Aqua Tex.

Overnight and through today, the rain has been modest with wind blowing onto the front face of the bellows. I even had the hose pipe in sprinkler mode playing onto the front and sides for a few minutes.

There has been absolutely no signs of any leakage through the treated seams, so I think I also have a result with the Aqua Tex.

Once the bellows dry out, I will apply Aqua Tex internally and externally to the stitching that I didn't treat yesterday to see if this cures the remaining leaks that I am still seeing.

I'll continue testing as often as I can to see how effective the Aqua Tex treatment is.

For anyone new to the discussion who has 04S bellows manufactured after 9th November, please take part in the poll so we can continue to build up a picture of the current failure rate as seen by members of the forum :

04S Bellow review poll.

Unfortunately I can't edit the poll title. For clarity I am discussing 04S bellows manufactured after 9th November 2023. On behalf of all of those affected, I'm wanting to build a picture on the performance of the latest 04S bellows fitted after 9th November 2023, based on members' real life...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

I had 6ish hrs of consistent normal moderate English rain backed by a consistent English light wind (not enough to flap the the bellows much) pointing at the front right of the van.

Water coming from horizontal / vertical / zips seams in front and the side facing the wind.

Lots of water collected in from frame and the material saturated on the inside in places.

Lots worse than first time I had it in rain , so I guess that answers the wetting once theory.

Hard to see from photo but probably 1cm collected all way along the front.

Very disappointed.

( not treated in any way for clarity)

 

[Corradobrit]

Rain 3 - 04SA mid dec bellows 0 View attachment 121256

Damning

 

[Glenderaterra]

yes i think I agree. If it was supposed to be 'wetted' by design, then surely VW would have jumped on this as soon as the reports of failing bellows started to come through

All the focus seems to be on what VW will accept. However the sale of the van will be subject to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 . Section 9 says goods have to be of satisfactory quality and Section 10 says they have to be reasonably fit for their purpose. If it is established that the bellows fail to meet these criteria the remedies are rejection within 6 months and after that repair or replacement.
I would have thought the evidence from this forum alone is strongly suggestive of a design fault and therefore breach of these implied ( by statute) terms of contract. The claim would probably be against the dealer but could be against both. I don't know the cost of replacement bellows but if less than 10 k the claim could be brought in the small claims court. (This applies to England and Wales and I think the limits in Scotland and NI are lower.)
I would have thought VW would want to keep claims out of court so the threat of court action might bring forward a more flexible approach.

This is all in addition to the warranty claim but a warranty claim is a claim relating to the wording of the contract which of course was written by VW and concerns whether there is a breach of the terms of the warranty. A claim under the Consumer Protection Act is much more subjective and judges tend to be supportive of the consumer as long as they are acting reasonably.

 

[lohr500]

All the focus seems to be on what VW will accept. However the sale of the van will be subject to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 . Section 9 says goods have to be of satisfactory quality and Section 10 says they have to be reasonably fit for their purpose. If this is established the remedies are rejection within 6 months and after that repair or replacement.
I would have thought the evidence from this forum alone is strongly suggestive of a design fault and therefore breach of these implied ( by statute) terms of contract. The claim would probably be against the dealer but could be against both. I don't know the cost of replacement bellows but if less than 10 k the claim could be brought in the small claims court. (This applies to England and Wales and I think the limits in Scotland and NI are lower.)
I would have thought VW would want to keep claims out of court so the threat of court action might bring forward a more flexible approach.

This is all in addition to the warranty claim but a warranty claim is a claim relating to the wording of the contract which of course was written by VW and concerns whether there is a breach of the terms of the warranty. A claim under the Consumer Protection Act is much more subjective and judges tend to be supportive of the consumer as long as they are acting reasonably.

Thanks for the input.

Without fully understanding Consumer Rights, rightly or wrongly I decided that I would have a strong case if I ever ended up in a small courts claim case against VW should they reject a warranty claim due to me using Aqua Tex.

There is plenty of evidence now to demonstrate that the latest 04S bellows design is still not fit for purpose. The only remedy on offer from VW currently is to replace the faulty bellows with the same design.

Any reasonable person presented with the evidence of multiple failures, would surely reach the same conclusion that there is no point replacing like for like. So it shouldn't be seen as unreasonable for owners to try and rectify the fault themselves by using a waterproofing product designed for all types of fabric tents, awnings, canvas, etc.

Following on from my post yesterday, this morning I was able to apply two coats of Aqua Tex internally and externally on the remaining seams and stitching. Once the Aqua Tex had dried there was no staining on the bellows material inside or out.

More rain forecast for tomorrow and Thursday so hopefully the Aqua Tex will have stopped the remaining leaks. I will report back in due course.

 

[From tent to van]

I’m on my 4th set of bellows now. Factory 03s leaked. Replaced 03S leaked. 04S pre 9/11/23 leaked. 04S post 9/11/23 also leak.

In fact the latest bellows I have (04S post 9/11/23) are the worst of the lot. They are like a sieve. Got up this morning and all the headlining was soaked all around the opening to the roof bed and all round the driver and passenger roof handles, also the B pillars are still dripping water down now - 14 hrs after it stopped raining.

We’re leaving tomorrow before any more rain comes. We made it 3 nights out of 7!

This saga is becoming a joke now.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

I’m on my 4th set of bellows now. Factory 03s leaked. Replaced 03S leaked. 04S pre 9/11/23 leaked. 04S post 9/11/23 also leak.

In fact the latest bellows I have (04S post 9/11/23) are the worst of the lot. They are like a sieve. Got up this morning and all the headlining was soaked all around the opening to the roof bed and all round the driver and passenger roof handles, also the B pillars are still dripping water down now - 14 hrs after it stopped raining.

We’re leaving tomorrow before any more rain comes. We made it 3 nights out of 7!

This saga is becoming a joke now.

No idea how you’ve managed to stick this out. That’s ridiculous.

 

[GillianC]

I’m on my 4th set of bellows now. Factory 03s leaked. Replaced 03S leaked. 04S pre 9/11/23 leaked. 04S post 9/11/23 also leak.

In fact the latest bellows I have (04S post 9/11/23) are the worst of the lot. They are like a sieve. Got up this morning and all the headlining was soaked all around the opening to the roof bed and all round the driver and passenger roof handles, also the B pillars are still dripping water down now - 14 hrs after it stopped raining.

We’re leaving tomorrow before any more rain comes. We made it 3 nights out of 7!

This saga is becoming a joke now.

Shocking. Absolutely shocking. I so feel for you. Totally unacceptable.

 

[Corradobrit]

I’m on my 4th set of bellows now. Factory 03s leaked. Replaced 03S leaked. 04S pre 9/11/23 leaked. 04S post 9/11/23 also leak.

In fact the latest bellows I have (04S post 9/11/23) are the worst of the lot. They are like a sieve. Got up this morning and all the headlining was soaked all around the opening to the roof bed and all round the driver and passenger roof handles, also the B pillars are still dripping water down now - 14 hrs after it stopped raining.

We’re leaving tomorrow before any more rain comes. We made it 3 nights out of 7!

This saga is becoming a joke now.

Have you cast a vote in the 04S poll?

04S Bellow review poll.

Unfortunately I can't edit the poll title. For clarity I am discussing 04S bellows manufactured after 9th November 2023. On behalf of all of those affected, I'm wanting to build a picture on the performance of the latest 04S bellows fitted after 9th November 2023, based on members' real life...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

Awful experience. I'm starting to think if its worth going down the suck and see bellows replacement avenue with all the risks that could entail. I will give it 3-4 months for latest 04S to be real world stress tested and if there is a high % of failures, will go for the Aquatex fix.