Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

[Fish111111111.]

Same date as mine, as well as the same Pers no. My serial number is 8 later than yours, and where yours says “3” mine says “10” - not sure what that no. relates to. But mine havent leaked [yet] having been out in two moderate to heavy soakings.
Maybe mine will leak soon, but just adds to the lack of consistency here - along with the fact that we seem to be getting more examples of leaks along the horizontal seams again, when a week or so ago it seemed like they had maybe been cured those with the black insert and that it was now the vertical seams that were failing.

Russian roulette comes to mind!

 

[myvanrodney]

The only reason a dealer would decline to change it would be if they didn't think they could reclaim the costs from VW themselves. This suggests that VW have put the brakes on, unless the dealer is misinformed? In which case, perhaps that indicates an acceptance of an issue with the 04S if they are reluctant to change like for like and possibly an imminent interim process (waterproofer) ahead of yet another redesign (or a change of approach to suggest periodic waterproofing).

My gut is suggesting the probability of the latter ("change of approach") is becoming more and more likely - cheap option, get out of jail card (in-perpetuity) and already 'accepted' (implied) by a few owners.

Im not sure how I feel about that.

 

[stationmaster]

Marshalls of Reading.

Thanks.

 

[myvanrodney]

Adrian is due to call me on Wednesday 17th April.

I'll be asking him if the Aqua Tex / Fabsil option has moved forward since our discussion last week.

With more and more reports of failed 04S bellows being reported on the forum, VW need to come up with an interim fix soon, until they can find a more permanent solution.

be careful,... they may decide not to find a more permanent solution and adopt your suggestions with open arms.

I suppose it fixes the problem, assuming periodic reapplication. Im not sure how I feel about that.

 

[Andy C Berks.]

Marshalls of Reading.

That probably explains why we have similar bellows then as they did mine too

 

[lohr500]

be careful,... they may decide not to find a more permanent solution and adopt your suggestions with open arms.

I suppose it fixes the problem, assuming periodic reapplication. Im not sure how I feel about that.

We are stuck between a rock and a hard place right now.

I could see no point in getting my bellows changed for another 04S set. And possibly, based on the dealer telling @Fish111111111. they weren't going to replace his bellows for a second time, VW have concluded the same (yet to be verified as @Fish111111111. is trying to find out what is going on.)

So what else are we supposed to do if we don't want to reject our vans?

If a waterproofing spray on the seams fixes the problem in the short term and doesn't cause the material or stitching to fall apart, then happy days for now.

VW will have to come up with a permanent fix as it looks to me as though the problem is getting worse, not better. If they determine that a waterproof spray is the permanent solution, perhaps with a top up at each service, then I'm fine with that. If it stops the leaks, then the bellows are working correctly.

My Paramo waterproof jacket is one of the best walking coats I have ever had. It is now at least 15 years old and is used regularly. No leaks in even the heaviest of downpours. It doesn't rely on taped seams and a waterproof backed material in its construction. But it does need a periodic wash and reproof with Nikwax to keep the water out.

If the bellows on my Cali need a quick top up every year with Aqua Tex or Fabsil, and VW get off their backsides and say it is OK to do so, then I'm happy to do this, or to let them do it.
Personally, I would rather apply the waterproofing myself then I know it has been done carefully and thoroughly.

At the end of the day, surely all we want is a set of bellows that keep the water out when it rains.

 

[Gliderbee California 6.1]

Just to clarify was the importer VW ?

No, the belgian importer is D'Ieteren Group. The shop where I bought it is a VW and Skoda dealer.

 

[Corradobrit]

No, the belgian importer is D'Ieteren Group. The shop where I bought it is a VW and Skoda dealer.

Thats where my Cali Coast came from via Campers.eu in Amsterdam.

 

[myvanrodney]

We are stuck between a rock and a hard place right now.

I could see no point in getting my bellows changed for another 04S set. And possibly, based on the dealer telling @Fish111111111. they weren't going to replace his bellows for a second time, VW have concluded the same (yet to be verified as @Fish111111111. is trying to find out what is going on.)

So what else are we supposed to do if we don't want to reject our vans?

If a waterproofing spray on the seams fixes the problem in the short term and doesn't cause the material or stitching to fall apart, then happy days for now.

VW will have to come up with a permanent fix as it looks to me as though the problem is getting worse, not better. If they determine that a waterproof spray is the permanent solution, perhaps with a top up at each service, then I'm fine with that. If it stops the leaks, then the bellows are working correctly.

My Paramo waterproof jacket is one of the best walking coats I have ever had. It is now at least 15 years old and is used regularly. No leaks in even the heaviest of downpours. It doesn't rely on taped seams and a waterproof backed material in its construction. But it does need a periodic wash and reproof with Nikwax to keep the water out.

If the bellows on my Cali need a quick top up every year with Aqua Tex or Fabsil, and VW get off their backsides and say it is OK to do so, then I'm happy to do this, or to let them do it.
Personally, I would rather apply the waterproofing myself then I know it has been done carefully and thoroughly.

At the end of the day, surely all we want is a set of bellows that keep the water out when it rains.

All makes sense.

 

[Gliderbee California 6.1]

I had several leaks when my Ocean was in heavy rain for a few days; see pictures.

The dealer in Belgium had to talk to the importer about it, and they threated it with Berner 455822 spray, twice with a full 24 hours drying in between ( https://www.amazon.nl/dp/B01BY82PUO?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details ).

I had it in light rains since for a few days (but not enough wind to really test it) and it stayed dry. It's up on my driveway; rain and heavy winds predicted for tomorrow and especially in the night from Monday to Tuesday. We'll see ...

Stefan.

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Well, two days and nights passed with quite heavy rain and strong winds (about 30-40mph with stronger gusts). The van was pointed to the West on an open driveway.

I checked this morning and found no leaks, so to me, everything looks fine !

Since it is wet now anyway, I'll leave it open on the driveway and check regulary (more rain is predicted, with lesser winds) and I'll keep you posted.

Stefan.

 

[Corradobrit]

Well, two days and nights passed with quite heavy rain and strong winds (about 30-40mph with stronger gusts). The van was pointed to the West on an open driveway.

I checked this morning and found no leaks, so to me, everything looks fine !

Since it is wet now anyway, I'll leave it open on the driveway and check regulary (more rain is predicted, with lesser winds) and I'll keep you posted.

Stefan.

Not surprising a fresh chemically treated seam is water tight. Question still remains what are the long term implications ie will the stretchy nature of the fabric compromise the sealant, and most importantly, will VW honour any future warranty claim? Did you get this in writing before the dealer proceeded with the treatment? It appears many of these continental dealers are quick to do remedial work making it good enough for now, without considering future implications. The paint over rusty scissor components is a good example.

 

[Gliderbee California 6.1]

Not surprising a fresh chemically treated seam is water tight. Question still remains what are the long term implications ie will the stretchy nature of the fabric compromise the sealant, and most importantly, will VW honour any future warranty claim? Did you get this in writing before the dealer proceeded with the treatment? It appears many of these continental dealers are quick to do remedial work making it good enough for now, without considering future implications. The paint over rusty scissor components is a good example.

You have a point.

The dealer confirmed me the treatment was advised by Volkswagen; literally, he wrote (in Dutch): "Het product dat we toen gebruikt hebben op aanraden van Volkswagen is : Berner, Premium, impregnatie spray, 45522 (dit was het artikel nummer naast de barcode dat op de bus stond)"

I for one intend to apply the product it each year after winter.
After all, I like wearing my waxcoat, but I have to treat it every year also .

 

[lohr500]

Having spoken again with Adrian this morning, it would appear that VW still dont have a solution for us at this stage.

They aren't sure if the problem relates to manufacturing errors or if there is a fundamental design problem. I am assured that investigations are ongoing. At least the problem is recognised.

As requested by myself and at least on other owner, Adrin has asked the relevant people in VW if we can get approval to use a waterproofing agent as an interim or possibly permanent solution. But a decision has not yet been made.
interesting though that in @Gliderbee California 6.1 case, the dealer in Belgium does seem to have approval from VW to use a spray.

I agreed that we would speak again in a month's time, or sooner if Adrian has anything definitive to report back on.

I can't say I am happy with the progress, but I'm not surprised. Nothing will happen quickly in a corporate giant like VW, especially on a component failure that isn't safety critical.

For the time being, my Aqua Tex treatment continues to be effective allowing us to enjoy our van as intended.

If I receive any update from Adrian before our next scheduled call, I will provide feedback.

Likewise, if anyone else is in discussion with Adrian or VW and gets any updates, please share on here so we can compare notes.

 

[Corradobrit]

"Het product dat we toen gebruikt hebben op aanraden van Volkswagen is : Berner, Premium, impregnatie spray, 45522 (dit was het artikel nummer naast de barcode dat op de bus stond)"

Not clear which level of VW is saying this. Could be the importer but its not stating categorically that the recommendation and thumbs up is coming from VW Nutzfahrzeug in Germany (which is what really counts).
If you are happy to chemically treat every year thats great but most owners will want the bellows to work to a certain standard with that complication and feel confident their bellows will be supported in case of a warranty claim eg if the bellows becomes detached from the poptop runners. VW could say by applying the sealant you have weakened the bond enough to cause the detachment. Can't give VW any cause to refuse a claim, which they will try to do.

 

[P600BOO]

Not clear which level of VW is saying this. Could be the importer but its not stating categorically that the recommendation and thumbs up is coming from VW Nutzfahrzeug in Germany (which is what really counts).
If you are happy to chemically treat every year thats great but most owners will want the bellows to work to a certain standard with that complication and feel confident their bellows will be supported in case of a warranty claim eg if the bellows becomes detached from the poptop runners. VW could say by applying the sealant you have weakened the bond enough to cause the detachment. Can't give VW any cause to refuse a claim, which they will try to do.

Why should the poptop detatch from the top runners if you use a waterproofing agent.
It is already documented that the bellows can detatch from the runners and the fix is to re glue them. If you are not happy using Aquatex on your bellows then don't use it. If your bellows leak and you want to use in wet weather then apply Aquatex to seams which seems to solve the problem. I now go out in my California and have no worries that it will leak. My problem / worry has been solved.
Happy days.

 

[Corradobrit]

Why should the poptop detatch from the top runners if you use a waterproofing agent.
It is already documented that the bellows can detatch from the runners and the fix is to re glue them. If you are not happy using Aquatex on your bellows then don't use it. If your bellows leak and you want to use in wet weather then apply Aquatex to seams which seems to solve the problem. I now go out in my California and have no worries that it will leak. My problem / worry has been solved.
Happy days.

Solvents may weaken the adhesive. Those areas are under constant tension.
Glad to hear you are happy with your decision. Hope it works out for you in the long run. Adrian/VW have confirmed there is a continuing issue with the bellows (04S) and I for one do not want to risk getting a definitive fix under warranty, by using an unauthorized product.

 

[markbrown83]

Having spoken again with Adrian this morning, it would appear that VW still dont have a solution for us at this stage.

They aren't sure if the problem relates to manufacturing errors or if there is a fundamental design problem. I am assured that investigations are ongoing. At least the problem is recognised.

As requested by myself and at least on other owner, Adrin has asked the relevant people in VW if we can get approval to use a waterproofing agent as an interim or possibly permanent solution. But a decision has not yet been made.
interesting though that in @Gliderbee California 6.1 case, the dealer in Belgium does seem to have approval from VW to use a spray.

I agreed that we would speak again in a month's time, or sooner if Adrian has anything definitive to report back on.

I can't say I am happy with the progress, but I'm not surprised. Nothing will happen quickly in a corporate giant like VW, especially on a component failure that isn't safety critical.

For the time being, my Aqua Tex treatment continues to be effective allowing us to enjoy our van as intended.

If I receive any update from Adrian before our next scheduled call, I will provide feedback.

Likewise, if anyone else is in discussion with Adrian or VW and gets any updates, please share on here so we can compare notes.

It's probably worth asking Adrian how this will all be handled when he eventually retires... I'm sure you'd be more reassured if there is a handover planned so it's an easy transition to the new person (if there is one - there has to be).

 

[P600BOO]

Solvents may weaken the adhesive. Those areas are under constant tension.
Glad to hear you are happy with your decision. Hope it works out for you in the long run. Adrian/VW have confirmed there is a continuing issue with the bellows (04S) and I for one do not want to risk getting a definitive fix under warranty, by using an unauthorized product.

That's you choice.
I can't see how a waterproof agent can actual get at the adhesive that is put in the channel that holds the rubber in place, never mind dissolve it. The rubber create a waterproof seal to stop water entering by the metal channel.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

That's you choice.
I can't see how a waterproof agent can actual get at the adhesive that is put in the channel that holds the rubber in place, never mind dissolve it. The rubber create a waterproof seal to stop water entering by the metal channel.

... you can use a water based sealant.

 

[Corradobrit]

That's you choice.
I can't see how a waterproof agent can actual get at the adhesive that is put in the channel that holds the rubber in place, never mind dissolve it. The rubber create a waterproof seal to stop water entering by the metal channel.

You do you

 

[stationmaster]

It's probably worth asking Adrian how this will all be handled when he eventually retires... I'm sure you'd be more reassured if there is a handover planned so it's an easy transition to the new person (if there is one - there has to be).

Helpful thought!

I imagine that any person tasked to manage this matter at the executive office is acting within predetermined guidelines? How else would it work?

Adrian will get to enjoy his retirement and we will have another equally capable person step in to manage things

 

[RockinNRollin]

Those of us with long term complaints logged will have dealt with Gary too who is (I assume still there) and was very helpful too.

 

[Nik_campervan]

Relying on warranty lol good luck with that one..

 

[ParachuteMan]

... you can use a water based sealant.

I have used both a water based seam sealant and a solvent based one. The water based one didn’t work very well

 

[Gliderbee California 6.1]

Solvents may weaken the adhesive. Those areas are under constant tension.
Glad to hear you are happy with your decision. Hope it works out for you in the long run. Adrian/VW have confirmed there is a continuing issue with the bellows (04S) and I for one do not want to risk getting a definitive fix under warranty, by using an unauthorized product.

As for the

Not clear which level of VW is saying this. Could be the importer but its not stating categorically that the recommendation and thumbs up is coming from VW Nutzfahrzeug in Germany (which is what really counts).
If you are happy to chemically treat every year thats great but most owners will want the bellows to work to a certain standard with that complication and feel confident their bellows will be supported in case of a warranty claim eg if the bellows becomes detached from the poptop runners. VW could say by applying the sealant you have weakened the bond enough to cause the detachment. Can't give VW any cause to refuse a claim, which they will try to do.

I don't think the whole tent must be treated, but only the seams: it's clear from the pictures (at least for my Van) that the water comes through the seams of the windows, and these are stitched, not glued (or are they both stitched and glued ?), so I don't see how the product would weaken the bond.

But again: you don't want an argument about warranty or not for this, and neither do I; that's why I had it done by the dealer and on his call, not mine,so he's responsable. I keep all records of the conversation with him.