Manual roof

[Sonas]

Ive been following a thread about roof canvas getting trapped or torn when lowering the automatic roof. Are there similar issues with the manual roof for the Beach/Coast models, or is its just the same.

Sonas

 

[Amarillo]

Ive been following a thread about roof canvas getting trapped or torn when lowering the automatic roof. Are there similar issues with the manual roof for the Beach/Coast models, or is its just the same.

Different issues. Trapping the fabric in the fastening clip is the danger with the manual roof. Not so serious.



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[CALI FATE]

The manual roof lowers down in two actions - and you have the chance to watch and ensure the roof collapses correctly. When you are happy that the canvas is clear of the scissor mechanism, you pull the roof closed and engage the clips. No excuse for mucking things up really.

 

[blondebier]

You're in full control with a manual roof.

As the others have said, I can't see how this would happen unless you weren't paying attention or it was too dark and you couldn't see the canvas.

It really is a simple process and the canvas always wants to fold inwards.

It's almost idiot proof, but then we all having idiot moments that we come to regret.

 

[WelshGas]

Just as likely to damage the canvas on the Manual or Hydraulic roof if you don't pay attention and follow the instructions to the letter. " Sods " Law can also intervene.
The Hydraulic roof only moves when the button is pressed and the Manual only moves when you pull, so you are in control.

 

[Digger]

WelshGas is spot on as usual. You have full control with the button on hydraulic.

 

[Rich20]

Also you have your head in the roof section when pulling the roof down as you need to hold the pull down bar. You should not be able to miss it if it starts to go wrong.

 

[Amarillo]

It's almost idiot proof, but then we all having idiot moments that we come to regret.

I once tried to lower the roof with the topper still in place - doh!



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[Max-Felix]

[cut & paste from similar topic]The Beach clips and buckles system is not the best design in the world and takes a bit of patience, technique and practise to use. It really could do with refining but like many Cali aspects this does not seem a VW priority.

This video below is getting old but shows perfectly the technique and how to roll the fabric behind the webbing (you'll feel a seam/tab on the back of the webbing just below the clip and the rolled fabric needs to sit below this). It also shows perfectly how to first just pull the roof down gently under its own weight and it will sit up a bit, gather the material in then check outside for trapped material. Then back inside to pull the roof down, roll fabric each side behind and under the clip, then actually clip each side, then the buckles, then push the shutter home gently with both hands while lifting the buckle each side unless they will get caught, etc, etc! Finally sit down with a sweaty head, slightly stressed and puffed out. Do it each morning for a month non stop and it gets easier.

FFS VW, just refine it a bit.

 

[MattBW]

I left the little plastic tags on to give a longer zip and use that to pull the fabric inwards as I lower it.

When its nearly shut I then fold the canvas so that it doesnt get caught in the clips (I think thats where my tiny perforations come from).

If someone can watch the back its helpful too, the only time the reinforcing bands ever didnt close right it was the rear one going outwards. You can usually see internally though.

 

[Borris]

Just as likely to damage the canvas on the Manual or Hydraulic roof if you don't pay attention and follow the instructions to the letter. " Sods " Law can also intervene.
The Hydraulic roof only moves when the button is pressed and the Manual only moves when you pull, so you are in control.

That may all be true in theory but unless I'm mistaken, why do almost all of the posts featuring torn roof canvas, damaged roof mechanisms and twisted roofs etc seem to come from SE/Ocean owners? If I'm correct, this could be because most owners operate the roof mechanism by pressing the control button whilst sitting isolated from the action in one of the front seats. When the canvas gets trapped without the owner being aware, their continuing to press the button will cause the powerful electro/hydraulic mechanism to continue to cause damage. With the Beach you have to stick your head up above the roof bed to pull down on the closing bar. You can therefore see the state of the canvas and adjust it as the roof comes down. If any issues do occur then I suggest that unlike the powered system you as a human being might be better able to detect any resistance and probably see the problem occuring as well.

So to answer the OP's question, unless I am mistaken it would appear that you are less likely to experience the same issues with the manual roof on the Beach or the Coast. Just watch you don't trap the canvas in the roof catches though.

 

[WelshGas]

That may all be true in theory but unless I'm mistaken, why do almost all of the posts featuring torn roof canvas, damaged roof mechanisms and twisted roofs etc seem to come from SE/Ocean owners? If I'm correct, this could be because most owners operate the roof mechanism by pressing the control button whilst sitting isolated from the action in one of the front seats. When the canvas gets trapped without the owner being aware, their continuing to press the button will cause the powerful electro/hydraulic mechanism to continue to cause damage. With the Beach you have to stick your head up above the roof bed to pull down on the closing bar. You can therefore see the state of the canvas and adjust it as the roof comes down. If any issues do occur then I suggest that unlike the powered system you as a human being might be better able to detect any resistance and probably see the problem occuring as well.

So to answer the OP's question, unless I am mistaken it would appear that you are less likely to experience the same issues with the manual roof on the Beach or the Coast. Just watch you don't trap the canvas in the roof catches though.

Possibly because there are more SE/Ocean Owners on the Forum than Beach Owners. Certainly the SE has been around longer than the Beach.

 

[Borris]

Possibly because there are more SE/Ocean Owners on the Forum than Beach Owners. Certainly the SE has been around longer than the Beach.

I agree, undoubtedly a factor. However, as far as I am able to recall I cannot remember reading many, if any torn canvas issues from Beach owners.

 

[Max-Felix]

Had both and electric roof IMHO is much easier and less prone to damage. Finger on button, head in roof space facing rear and watch it come down. Finger off if wind or whatever causes an issue. Having said that I'd rather have a manual roof but with a decent clip system.

 

[Borris]

Had both and electric roof IMHO is much easier and less prone to damage. Finger on button, head in roof space facing rear and watch it come down. Finger off if wind or whatever causes an issue. Having said that I'd rather have a manual roof but with a decent clip system.

Interesting. Having also had both versions I too found the electro/hydraulic roof easy to use but always felt that the potential for damage was greater than in the Beach that we also owned at the same time. You say it was less prone to damage, if you don't mind me asking what damage did you suffer with the manual version ?

I'm also interested in how you feel the clip system could be improved. Whilst I've always felt that it works perfectly I'm always interested in any potential improvements.

 

[Max-Felix]

Hi Borris - I think as an example if you look at the old Westfalia Cali T4 roof for instance - pull a bar down and slide a lever across - done! Like so much on the Cali there are dozens of refinements VW could make to improve fit, fixtures, ergonomics etc across the kitchen unit, trim, control panel, socket placement, etc, of what is 99% a 15 year old design but they just don't seem interested..

I just found the back up buckles/webbing and afterthought design and fiddly, the main clips small, difficult to access, stiff and not user friendly, the rolling up of the canvas behind the straps a faff. Yes, it works but it could all be much better and simpler/quicker - it's extreme penny pinching too that they deny Beach owners a front window. I also think the Beach roof could benefit from some front braces or larger diameter gas struts. Watch the video above - which is the absolute textbook method of doing it and it's much slower than the electric roof in practise - pull part down, jump out, checking all round, back in, rolling canvas, clicking buckles, blah, blah, even the way the sliding roof always hits the buckles unless you lift them as you slide one at a time....

I did not suffer damage in the Beach (although previous owner had holed it a couple of times by the front buckles) but sticking your head in the SE/Ocean roof space while watching it come down as you control it with no front clips to worry about has IMHO less potential for damage. The excess roof fabric also seems to control itself much better in the SE/Ocean.

As I say though if I was keeping a Cali/Beach for long term I'd go Beach, partly for the roof to alleviate expensive issues with the hydraulics (but mainly for the layout).

 

[soulstyledevon]

The most important piece of advice I can give, is open the side door and tailgate before pulling the roof down.
I’ve seen so many people trying to shut roofs with them closed. It’s full of air and that air needs to escape somewhere...


As for electric vs manual.
The manual wins hands down. Faster & less complicated.
I really hate the electric roof in my Ocean compared to the manual Beach roof.

As for the Beach buckle system. I think it’s spot on. You wanna see some of the aftermarket pop ups. Secured down with nothing more than string...
Plus I like snapping the buckle down, knowing the roof is securely in place.

 

[Borris]

Hi Borris - I think as an example if you look at the old Westfalia Cali T4 roof for instance - pull a bar down and slide a lever across - done! Like so much on the Cali there are dozens of refinements VW could make to improve fit, fixtures, ergonomics etc across the kitchen unit, trim, control panel, socket placement, etc, of what is 99% a 15 year old design but they just don't seem interested..

I just found the back up buckles/webbing and afterthought design and fiddly, the main clips small, difficult to access, stiff and not user friendly, the rolling up of the canvas behind the straps a faff. Yes, it works but it could all be much better and simpler/quicker - it's extreme penny pinching too that they deny Beach owners a front window. I also think the Beach roof could benefit from some front braces or larger diameter gas struts.

I did not suffer damage in the Beach (although previous owner had holed it a couple of times by the front buckles) but sticking your head in the SE/Ocean roof space while watching it come down as you control it with no front clips to worry about has IMHO less potential for damage. The excess roof fabric also seems to control itself much better in the SE/Ocean.

As I say though if I was keeping a Cali/Beach for long term I'd go Beach, partly for the roof (but mainly for the layout).

Hello Max-Felix,
Thanks for a very comprehensive reply.

I've no experience of the westfalia Cali T4 but the mechanism does sound simple and effective. I agree that the T5/6 Beach roof clips can be rather stiff and can require a little effort to snap them shut which some users could find rather difficult, although I have always found them to be fine. Also there is the danger of the unwary user damaging the canvas in the closed clip. So upon reflection, I agree the current system might not suit everyone especially those who don't have the strength or dexterity to operate the clips. The securing buckles are simple and effective but I've found that they do often foul the roof hatch cover when you attempt to close it. Whilst that is easily remedied with a little poking, it is unessessary and rather annoying. Not having a front window doesn't bother me as I rarely open them but I take your point. I suppose it's VW's way of creating their model pecking order and cutting costs as well. Unless you are someone who uses a top box, I disagree about the extra front braces and bigger gas struts. I've never found that the roof needed any futher bracing and they would only add further components to a simple design. The bigger gas struts may assist it to go up better, although that's never been an issue in my case, but it would also make it more difficult to pull down as well. However, I concede that if you have a loaded top box then I can see the merit in both the aditional braces and the bigger gas struts. So the answer seems to be for VW to make the extra braces and heavy duty gas struts a extra cost option for those that are likely to fit top boxes.

I agree that the current Ocean interior is now an old design and that there is room for improvement in a number of areas. However it does still work well on the whole for most owners. Short of a clean sheet design which isn't what VW does, I've no doubt that the current design, albeit with some minor tweeks, will continue for some time to come.

Personally, I found the wardrobe and safe an awkward design that could benefit from a serious re-think. Also, the top opening fridge is a PITA as you have to keep taking stuff off the top to access it. In addition, the Ocean is a very expensive leisure vehicle so should have a hot water system. Being leisure vehicles, both models should also have factory fitted solar panels or at least the option to have them and the roof should, after all of the corrosion issues, be of composite and not aluminium construction. I can also think of a few improvements that should be made to the front swivel seats. Factory markings to aid the unfamiliar user to find the correct positions for swivelling the front seats is one issue that comes to mind along with a detent to enable the passenger swivel seat to be locked at an angle when facing the rear and a full factory leather seat cover option. And the list goes on......

As I say though if I was keeping a Cali/Beach for long term I'd go Beach, partly for the roof (but mainly for the layout).[/QUOTE]

And having owned both versions that's where we ended up as well, with the Beach. It's simple, uncomplicated, much more roomy and so so versatile.

 

[Max-Felix]

Yes, all valid points - if we all went on about improvements throughout the entire vehicle I think we'd be here all day - so much could be done!

The front window is really useful for quick extra light and ventilation and easier to access than the side ones. And when lying up top looking out the front it's a great view.

 

[CALI FATE]

Yes, all valid points - if we all went on about improvements throughout the entire vehicle I think we'd be here all day - so much could be done!

The front window is really useful for quick extra light and ventilation and easier to access than the side ones. And when lying up top looking out the front it's a great view.

If there was an after market option to fit a front window i would go for it too - in fact i love the big zipper options on the Swiss stuff where you can zip away the canvas and roll it up - that would be lovely on a starry night - or at an event where you can gain an elevated position ......... if the canvas can be dropped out easilly the zip option would be fairly straightforward if you had the kit

 

[Max-Felix]

Yes, I'd definitely consider this - plenty of tent or sail makers who could pop a window/flyscreen in. A lot of posts lately on canvas popping out of corners but anyone know how involved or even if it's a DIY job to take it out? I have a feeling it would never go back in quite the same though.