PDF Problems?? White smoke without answers? Help desperately needed pls..

[Ichidon]

Hi Eveyone,
Hopefully i am in the right forum section, apologies if not.
To start i would say i am very happy to now be apart of this forum and think i should have joined a long time ago.. As of this time last year I am/was the proud owner of a VW California T5 from 2006 (7HMA). 128KW / 174PS
A diesel 2.5 ltr DTI motor with 169000 kms on the clock.

I baught this bus at a relatively good price but now after going through 4 different mechanics and spending over 10000 euro, the bus is still not fixed and nobody can seem to help.
Of course if I go to another mechanic, they would have another idea but it seems like i am paying constantly for people to guess and not getting any results.

At the begining of my problem the bus blew white smoke, the Emmisions warning light came on. I took it to garage and it was really since then i have had this problem.
He took out the partical filter and had it cleaned. He also adviced me to change just one Injector? He could apparently see that one wasnt spraying correctly? Now after more research maybe this guy just wanted to make some cash!

Anyway.. After it was "fixed" i drove it for just a few days before the emissions light and also this time the check engine warning light came on.

The problem is now and always has been with the PDF, or to say the bus blows white smoke. I can be driving along to then feel the motor maybe misses a beat. I look in the mirror and extreme white smoke is pouring out the back?

I understand this idea that the motor itself is not really designed for short journeys (stop/start) and i have read that maybe after around 200kms the motor needs to get a good long run to get it hot enough to burn the bild up inside the partical filter.

I have had this PDF "professionally" cleaned twice. After the last time i drove the bus just 40kms before i felt the bus and once again saw the dreaded white smoke.

I have changed all 5 Injectors and also the AGR (exhaust gas recirculation valve?). A new temperature sensor and i believe another sensor as well. Forgive me as i guess its clear that i am not a proffessional.

Fluid levels dont seem to change much.. the oil looks good! ..black but good!

Thanks to anyone that has spent the time to read about my dilemma and i sincerely welcome any feedback someone may have.

Phil .S

 

[dspuk]

VW garage or independent? Knowledgeable independent?

There are other better T5 experts on here but this sounds like something a proper VW garage/expert could sort in a jiffy.

 

[pjm-84]

Did anyone read the error codes? VCDS is a must

 

[Defender90]

Hi Eveyone,
Hopefully i am in the right forum section, apologies if not.
To start i would say i am very happy to now be apart of this forum and think i should have joined a long time ago.. As of this time last year I am/was the proud owner of a VW California T5 from 2006 (7HMA). 128KW / 174PS
A diesel 2.5 ltr DTI motor with 169000 kms on the clock.

I baught this bus at a relatively good price but now after going through 4 different mechanics and spending over 10000 euro, the bus is still not fixed and nobody can seem to help.
Of course if I go to another mechanic, they would have another idea but it seems like i am paying constantly for people to guess and not getting any results.

At the begining of my problem the bus blew white smoke, the Emmisions warning light came on. I took it to garage and it was really since then i have had this problem.
He took out the partical filter and had it cleaned. He also adviced me to change just one Injector? He could apparently see that one wasnt spraying correctly? Now after more research maybe this guy just wanted to make some cash!

Anyway.. After it was "fixed" i drove it for just a few days before the emissions light and also this time the check engine warning light came on.

The problem is now and always has been with the PDF, or to say the bus blows white smoke. I can be driving along to then feel the motor maybe misses a beat. I look in the mirror and extreme white smoke is pouring out the back?

I understand this idea that the motor itself is not really designed for short journeys (stop/start) and i have read that maybe after around 200kms the motor needs to get a good long run to get it hot enough to burn the bild up inside the partical filter.

I have had this PDF "professionally" cleaned twice. After the last time i drove the bus just 40kms before i felt the bus and once again saw the dreaded white smoke.

I have changed all 5 Injectors and also the AGR (exhaust gas recirculation valve?). A new temperature sensor and i believe another sensor as well. Forgive me as i guess its clear that i am not a proffessional.

Fluid levels dont seem to change much.. the oil looks good! ..black but good!

Thanks to anyone that has spent the time to read about my dilemma and i sincerely welcome any feedback someone may have.

Phil .S

 

[Defender90]

hi i would have a compression test just to rule out the cylinder head gasket,i had a golf years ago that had a similar problem the gasket had failed.

 

[WelshGas]

Hi Eveyone,
Hopefully i am in the right forum section, apologies if not.
To start i would say i am very happy to now be apart of this forum and think i should have joined a long time ago.. As of this time last year I am/was the proud owner of a VW California T5 from 2006 (7HMA). 128KW / 174PS
A diesel 2.5 ltr DTI motor with 169000 kms on the clock.

I baught this bus at a relatively good price but now after going through 4 different mechanics and spending over 10000 euro, the bus is still not fixed and nobody can seem to help.
Of course if I go to another mechanic, they would have another idea but it seems like i am paying constantly for people to guess and not getting any results.

At the begining of my problem the bus blew white smoke, the Emmisions warning light came on. I took it to garage and it was really since then i have had this problem.
He took out the partical filter and had it cleaned. He also adviced me to change just one Injector? He could apparently see that one wasnt spraying correctly? Now after more research maybe this guy just wanted to make some cash!

Anyway.. After it was "fixed" i drove it for just a few days before the emissions light and also this time the check engine warning light came on.

The problem is now and always has been with the PDF, or to say the bus blows white smoke. I can be driving along to then feel the motor maybe misses a beat. I look in the mirror and extreme white smoke is pouring out the back?

I understand this idea that the motor itself is not really designed for short journeys (stop/start) and i have read that maybe after around 200kms the motor needs to get a good long run to get it hot enough to burn the bild up inside the partical filter.

I have had this PDF "professionally" cleaned twice. After the last time i drove the bus just 40kms before i felt the bus and once again saw the dreaded white smoke.

I have changed all 5 Injectors and also the AGR (exhaust gas recirculation valve?). A new temperature sensor and i believe another sensor as well. Forgive me as i guess its clear that i am not a proffessional.

Fluid levels dont seem to change much.. the oil looks good! ..black but good!

Thanks to anyone that has spent the time to read about my dilemma and i sincerely welcome any feedback someone may have.

Phil .S

1. What are the Diagnostic Codes read from the vehicle computer via the OBD port?
2. Are you losing any Coolant?
3. Is the white smoke present on start of engine or only when engine unto temperature?
4. DPF's do have a life span. Cleaning can help to extend that but there comes a time when it has to be replaced. What is the Soot and Ash levels of your DPF? VCDS or Carissa software can give you this information if you use the correct version for your vehicle.
5. White smoke can be due to coolant in engine or unburnt diesel in exhaust. When undergoing a DPF regeneration diesel is injected into the DPF on the exhaust stroke to improve combustion etc: of the DPF soot.

White Diesel Smoke​

White diesel smoke often relates to one of two potential systems that are causing problems. One possible problem is that the coolant fluid is working its way into the cylinders and burning along with the fuel. The other problem could be that the fuel isn’t burning completely.

White diesel smoke can be irritating to the eyes and skin. This irritation is more likely when the diesel fuel isn’t burning properly and is making its way out of the exhaust. You may need to flush your eyes and wash your skin thoroughly after coming into contact with white diesel smoke.

Many variables can contribute to a diesel engine producing white smoke. These variables can include, but aren’t limited to:

• Cylinder head damage (coolant leak)
• Improper cylinder compression
• Fuel injector damage
• Failing glow plug
• Piston ring or cylinder damage
• Failing diesel fuel pump
• Timing gear damage
• Improper fuel pump timing

If the presence of white smoke from your diesel engine is temporary, it may just be condensation burning away as the system heats up. The occasional puff of white smoke during hard acceleration is typical as well. If the white smoke lasts more than a few moments, though, it’s time for a professional inspection and repair.

 

[Ichidon]

hi i would have a compression test just to rule out the cylinder head gasket,i had a golf years ago that had a similar problem the gasket had failed.

Ok thanks for the info. I had discussed the idea of a compression test a while ago but at the time the mechanic and 1 decided to follow another path.. a path of throwing money away! Ha! .. sad face!
but thankzou.. something to consider

 

[Ichidon]

1. What are the Diagnostic Codes read from the vehicle computer via the OBD port?
2. Are you losing any Coolant?
3. Is the white smoke present on start of engine or only when engine unto temperature?
4. DPF's do have a life span. Cleaning can help to extend that but there comes a time when it has to be replaced. What is the Soot and Ash levels of your DPF? VCDS or Carissa software can give you this information if you use the correct version for your vehicle.
5. White smoke can be due to coolant in engine or unburnt diesel in exhaust. When undergoing a DPF regeneration diesel is injected into the DPF on the exhaust stroke to improve combustion etc: of the DPF soot.

White Diesel Smoke​

White diesel smoke often relates to one of two potential systems that are causing problems. One possible problem is that the coolant fluid is working its way into the cylinders and burning along with the fuel. The other problem could be that the fuel isn’t burning completely.

White diesel smoke can be irritating to the eyes and skin. This irritation is more likely when the diesel fuel isn’t burning properly and is making its way out of the exhaust. You may need to flush your eyes and wash your skin thoroughly after coming into contact with white diesel smoke.

Many variables can contribute to a diesel engine producing white smoke. These variables can include, but aren’t limited to:

• Cylinder head damage (coolant leak)
• Improper cylinder compression
• Fuel injector damage
• Failing glow plug
• Piston ring or cylinder damage
• Failing diesel fuel pump
• Timing gear damage
• Improper fuel pump timing

If the presence of white smoke from your diesel engine is temporary, it may just be condensation burning away as the system heats up. The occasional puff of white smoke during hard acceleration is typical as well. If the white smoke lasts more than a few moments, though, it’s time for a professional inspection and repair.

Hello,
Thanks very much for th info and your response.. to answer your questions (as best i can)..

1.I have been together with the Mechanic now 2 times reading his computer software. Both times there were no problems detected. I hope thats what you mean by Diagnostic codes?

On my last trip to the Mechanic he said he wanted to see exactly what i was talking about. driving around the area for a while the smoke did come. With extreme smoke pouring from the bus i left it parked and running while he connected his computer. the smoke did stop by itself eventually but he found no error codes.

2.The bus doesnt seem to be loosing any fluids, coolants.

3.The bus blows white smoke normally when its come to temperature. Not alway but often.

4. Its hard to say the soot and ash level of the PDF. Using the Mechanics software he said that it was just 4% full.
He disconnected the temperature sensor and asked me to test drive for a week. Naturally the check engine warning light came on soon after but for the whole week there was NO smoke.
The day before i went back i reconnected the sensor. while parked i started the motor to see if any other warning lights came on but nothing.
Once again i disconnected the sensor and started to drive. within 5 mins it stated to smoke again.

Just to be clear.. This bus, when it smokes, is thick white smoke. Other motorists keep distance because it looks like its on fire or something. It then smells (more than usual) and a noticeable change in performance.
Now after learning this trick with the temp sensor i pull over, disconnect it and then the smoking stops straight away. Or leaving the sensor connected i take the bus for a longer journey with the idea i can burn off whats in the PDF. This sollution keeps the bus from smoking for 3 or 4 short trips and then the process starts again.

Thanks again and i welcome any feedback
Phil

 

[Perfectos]

Has the water pump been replaced ever ?

What does the smoke sell of ?

 

[Corradobrit]

If you are not losing fluids seems like unburnt diesel could be the issue. Here are some of the suggestions. Get all the injectors checked, compression test (very easy). I would also get an oil analysis as this is a great diagnostic, cheap and quick.

From Google:

White exhaust smoke from the tailpipe usually means raw diesel is passing through the combustion chamber into your exhaust stream. This happens when the engine’s combustion cylinders aren’t hot enough to burn the diesel.

There are a few frequently seen reasons for this. If defective fuel injectors introduce diesel into the cylinders at the wrong time and in the wrong quantities, raw or partially burnt diesel may leave the cylinders. As a result, raw fuel can progress through the exhaust system.

Defective fuel injectors are frequently caused by a bad injector pump or worn timing gear. Reduced cylinder compression, due to compromised values or a sticking piston ring, can also let raw diesel enter the exhaust.

White exhaust smoke can also be a symptom of a few more serious issues, which require significant downtime and more expensive repairs. A coolant leak can drive the fluid through the cylinder and turbo, flooding the DPF and risking hydrocarbon poisoning. If this happens, the DPF and other elements of the aftertreatment system may need to be replaced.

Faulty head gaskets can cause exhaust smoke by failing to seal the combustion cylinders, allowing gases or fluids to leak in or out. You will also see white exhaust smoke if a cracked cylinder head is leaking water into your diesel and combustion cylinders. Whatever the cause, if you see white smoke coming from your tailpipe, it’s important to take your truck for repairs!

 

[aeicalifornia]

had a similar issue few years ago on a Range Rover TD6, in line 6, BMW engine, MY 2006.
same white thick smelly smoke, from time to time, no regular pattern, engine unto temp.
changed the injectors, checked the compression, the fluid levels, everything.
EGR blanked on that car and no DPF.
after all, proofed to be some turbo failure, not completely but a de-calibration of it, allowing a clearance of moving parts, causing oil from turbo to be somehow pushed into the exhaust system.
fixed the turbo with a repair kit (no need to change it) by a brilliant mechanic, and after that some smoke still get out couple of times (some residuals left unburnt on the way, I was told) but eventually all set and clean.
so, check the turbo also.
might help...

 

[aeicalifornia]

proofed = proved, sorry...
no edit for me.

 

[pluc99]

The engine needs more fuel when it is cold and less when it is hot. The engine control system, when it isn't getting the correct temperature information, will think that the engine is still cold and will consequently send an excessive amount of fuel into the cylinders, resulting in white smoke. There wouldn't be any error code in the diagnostics because as far as the system is concerned, everything is working as it should.

When you disconnect the cable to a temperature sensor and connect it to the engine block instead (as opposed to having it dangling in the air), the message it sends will be the same as "engine hot". What's confusing me is that you said that a temperature sensor has been replaced. Is that the same one that the mechanic had you disconnect? There may be several sensors in play and you could expect them to age at a similar rate, so replacing only one of them may not solve the problem.

 

[Ichidon]

had a similar issue few years ago on a Range Rover TD6, in line 6, BMW engine, MY 2006.
same white thick smelly smoke, from time to time, no regular pattern, engine unto temp.
changed the injectors, checked the compression, the fluid levels, everything.
EGR blanked on that car and no DPF.
after all, proofed to be some turbo failure, not completely but a de-calibration of it, allowing a clearance of moving parts, causing oil from turbo to be somehow pushed into the exhaust system.
fixed the turbo with a repair kit (no need to change it) by a brilliant mechanic, and after that some smoke still get out couple of times (some residuals left unburnt on the way, I was told) but eventually all set and clean.
so, check the turbo also.
might help...

thanks very much for the info.. I think most of my mechanics skip the idea of the turbo because the issue seems to be so sporadic. but i will pass on your info thanks

 

[Ichidon]

VW garage or independent? Knowledgeable independent?

There are other better T5 experts on here but this sounds like something a proper VW garage/expert could sort in a jiffy.

Thanks for the message.. one after the next and then the next garage, friends who know friends that are VW specialists?? Everyone knows someone right! I often think that i should just bight the bullet and go to an expert.
I have just been advised that if i were to go then they would just replace everything to cover themselves.. this obviously means big bucks. with so much spent already im between a rock and a hard place!
If i had known at the beggining i would have just built a new engine in.
anyway.. thanks

 

[Ichidon]

The engine needs more fuel when it is cold and less when it is hot. The engine control system, when it isn't getting the correct temperature information, will think that the engine is still cold and will consequently send an excessive amount of fuel into the cylinders, resulting in white smoke. There wouldn't be any error code in the diagnostics because as far as the system is concerned, everything is working as it should.

When you disconnect the cable to a temperature sensor and connect it to the engine block instead (as opposed to having it dangling in the air), the message it sends will be the same as "engine hot". What's confusing me is that you said that a temperature sensor has been replaced. Is that the same one that the mechanic had you disconnect? There may be several sensors in play and you could expect them to age at a similar rate, so replacing only one of them may not solve the problem.

Thanks for the message.. I could very well be wrong but from my understanding there are 3 sensors.. or at least 3 connection points all held together on the same bracket.
Yes the temperature sensor was replaced "with some Chinese rubbish" ( the Mechanics words) and this is what i was asked to disconnect and it does make sense to me also that all of them would be in the same condition .i.e not so good as they would be almost 20 years old..
The bus has smoked just 1 time without the sensor being connected. all the other times disconnection was the short term solution to get me from A to B.

 

[Ichidon]

Has the water pump been replaced ever ?

What does the smoke sell of ?

To my knowlege no it hasnt been replaced. The bus, as its a bit older has the smell of an older diesel engine when outside of the vehical. Im sorry that i cant be more specific with the smell but only to say that when it smokes the smell becomes more intense.
Mr specific!! Ha!

 

[Ichidon]

If you are not losing fluids seems like unburnt diesel could be the issue. Here are some of the suggestions. Get all the injectors checked, compression test (very easy). I would also get an oil analysis as this is a great diagnostic, cheap and quick.

From Google:

White exhaust smoke from the tailpipe usually means raw diesel is passing through the combustion chamber into your exhaust stream. This happens when the engine’s combustion cylinders aren’t hot enough to burn the diesel.

There are a few frequently seen reasons for this. If defective fuel injectors introduce diesel into the cylinders at the wrong time and in the wrong quantities, raw or partially burnt diesel may leave the cylinders. As a result, raw fuel can progress through the exhaust system.

Defective fuel injectors are frequently caused by a bad injector pump or worn timing gear. Reduced cylinder compression, due to compromised values or a sticking piston ring, can also let raw diesel enter the exhaust.

White exhaust smoke can also be a symptom of a few more serious issues, which require significant downtime and more expensive repairs. A coolant leak can drive the fluid through the cylinder and turbo, flooding the DPF and risking hydrocarbon poisoning. If this happens, the DPF and other elements of the aftertreatment system may need to be replaced.

Faulty head gaskets can cause exhaust smoke by failing to seal the combustion cylinders, allowing gases or fluids to leak in or out. You will also see white exhaust smoke if a cracked cylinder head is leaking water into your diesel and combustion cylinders. Whatever the cause, if you see white smoke coming from your tailpipe, it’s important to take your truck for repairs!

Hi there.. thanks for the message. I am starting to like this idea of a compression test but wonder if i were to have damage somewhere, a crack and i was loosing compression, wouldnt that mean the smoke would be happening all the time? I also wonder the same thing with another comment from the other day about replacing the turbo? as a mechanical problem that changes with the connection or disconnection of a temperture sensor..?
All 5 injectors have been replaced but i understand that maybe that doesnt mean they are all spraying correctly.
Thanks for all your points.. i will pass them along.. cheers

 

[Nik_campervan]

The engine needs more fuel when it is cold and less when it is hot. The engine control system, when it isn't getting the correct temperature information, will think that the engine is still cold and will consequently send an excessive amount of fuel into the cylinders, resulting in white smoke. There wouldn't be any error code in the diagnostics because as far as the system is concerned, everything is working as it should.

When you disconnect the cable to a temperature sensor and connect it to the engine block instead (as opposed to having it dangling in the air), the message it sends will be the same as "engine hot". What's confusing me is that you said that a temperature sensor has been replaced. Is that the same one that the mechanic had you disconnect? There may be several sensors in play and you could expect them to age at a similar rate, so replacing only one of them may not solve the problem.

Connect what to the engine block? confused as each temp sensor has differing electrical profile and would electrically be shorted to gnd via the block. How does sensor read same as "engine hot".

 

[pluc99]

Connect what to the engine block? confused as each temp sensor has differing electrical profile and would electrically be shorted to gnd via the block. How does sensor read same as "engine hot".

Your confusion is justified as I was basing my comment on my experience on a T2 model bus with a single cable connecting to the sensor. The T5 sensor has two cables but is nevertheless not a sophisticated electronic piece of equipment; it's pretty well just an on/off switch. See link:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165985089119
I suspect that shorting the two cables would have the same effect of sending an "engine hot" message to the system, but I wouldn't bet my engine control system on it. Better leave the solution to the mechanic who suggested disconnecting it. He seems to be on the right track.

 

[sidepod]

Your confusion is justified as I was basing my comment on my experience on a T2 model bus with a single cable connecting to the sensor. The T5 sensor has two cables but is nevertheless not a sophisticated electronic piece of equipment; it's pretty well just an on/off switch. See link:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/165985089119
I suspect that shorting the two cables would have the same effect of sending an "engine hot" message to the system, but I wouldn't bet my engine control system on it. Better leave the solution to the mechanic who suggested disconnecting it. He seems to be on the right track.

There is no direct electrical connection externally on that sensor so grounding it to the engine block will make no difference as far as the ecu is concerned.
Internally it’s a resistor. The two wires connected across it. Resistance changes with temperature, the ecu sees the change in volt drop across it.

 

[Hawthorn37]

You mention in one of your early answers, the oil looks good, black but good. New engine oil doesn’t look black, more amber colour. Old oil looks black. In my experience white smoke is a classic sign of coolant getting into the oil via the head gasket, which then burns white. I’d do an oil change, plus new oil filter. Two reasons. First take a close look at the old oil coming out and see if there are any waxy / jelly like globules (emulsification of oil and water), and bizarre as it sounds, smell the oil as the antifreeze in coolant has a particular odour, even when mixed with oil. Do a smell comparison with new oil. And second, after running on fresh oil, see if this then turns black. It shouldn’t for a few thousand miles.

My money would be on the head gasket, so eliminate this first. You don’t need much of a coolant leak, so you probably won’t detect a drop in the coolant header tank unless it gets really bad, and the oil goes milky.

 

[sidepod]

Is this a PD engine ? If it is perhaps check the injector harness. It does sound like a fueling issue. This would also explain your misfire.
If it’s not a PD engine then perhaps look at the injection pump.

If non of these then it’s parts cannon time. Check all of the wiring then start replacing sensors.

 

[westfalia]

I don't know how yet, but maybe you could disconnect the injection unit that
forces diesel into the exhaust temporarily, just to see if the problem persists.
You would need -of course- some way of catching that diesel instead of it pissing
out on the road.
That is my guess as to where your problem is.

 

[Anthony1]

Hi Eveyone,
Hopefully i am in the right forum section, apologies if not.
To start i would say i am very happy to now be apart of this forum and think i should have joined a long time ago.. As of this time last year I am/was the proud owner of a VW California T5 from 2006 (7HMA). 128KW / 174PS
A diesel 2.5 ltr DTI motor with 169000 kms on the clock.

I baught this bus at a relatively good price but now after going through 4 different mechanics and spending over 10000 euro, the bus is still not fixed and nobody can seem to help.
Of course if I go to another mechanic, they would have another idea but it seems like i am paying constantly for people to guess and not getting any results.

At the begining of my problem the bus blew white smoke, the Emmisions warning light came on. I took it to garage and it was really since then i have had this problem.
He took out the partical filter and had it cleaned. He also adviced me to change just one Injector? He could apparently see that one wasnt spraying correctly? Now after more research maybe this guy just wanted to make some cash!

Anyway.. After it was "fixed" i drove it for just a few days before the emissions light and also this time the check engine warning light came on.

The problem is now and always has been with the PDF, or to say the bus blows white smoke. I can be driving along to then feel the motor maybe misses a beat. I look in the mirror and extreme white smoke is pouring out the back?

I understand this idea that the motor itself is not really designed for short journeys (stop/start) and i have read that maybe after around 200kms the motor needs to get a good long run to get it hot enough to burn the bild up inside the partical filter.

I have had this PDF "professionally" cleaned twice. After the last time i drove the bus just 40kms before i felt the bus and once again saw the dreaded white smoke.

I have changed all 5 Injectors and also the AGR (exhaust gas recirculation valve?). A new temperature sensor and i believe another sensor as well. Forgive me as i guess its clear that i am not a proffessional.

Fluid levels dont seem to change much.. the oil looks good! ..black but good!

Thanks to anyone that has spent the time to read about my dilemma and i sincerely welcome any feedback someone may have.

Phil .S

DPF