Renewable energy

[Velma's Dad]

Population growth rate is declining.
Experts predict a peak of about 10billion people and then quite a rapid drop off from there.

That’s why it’s key now, to consume less...

Yes of course it would be great if we all consumed less wouldn't it. It's just incredibly difficult to see how that will happen beyond the general trend line of decreasing material consumption per unit of economic activity due in large part due to the shift from 'stuff' to services in most economies which can and should be encouraged by governments.

What might the mechanisms be - politically achievable ones I mean - that would persuade people to consume less physical stuff? Tax based on materials weight is fine in principle but incredibly difficult to implement as it tends to be very regressive/inequitable. Not realistic IMO, any more than it's realistic to accelerate the attainment of peak population, other than by some win-win development strategies such as education in the poorest countries. At national levels, a faster levelling off of population will cause havoc as aging cohorts suck the life out of smaller younger segments. Even if you could achieve it by, say, incentivising childlessness.

So, given that the biggest and most urgent issue remains human-induced global climate change (local environmental harms can be mitigated locally, even though patchily), we should do the thing that is feasible, which is to decarbonise the core of the economy (electricity gen, transportation and home heating) as quickly as reasonably achievable, which we pretty much know how to do now. Rather than keep going on about how hard that is.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

I treat population modelling with a large degree of distrust. As with all mathematical models "garbage in garbage out". The population in Africa is likely to quadruple between now and 2100. Look at how the population has grown since 2000. Also S America. All these new people will want to indulge in consumerism.

Agree with consume less.

Agree.

 

[66tim99]

Yes of course it would be great if we all consumed less wouldn't it. It's just incredibly difficult to see how that will happen beyond the general trend line of decreasing material consumption per unit of economic activity due in large part due to the shift from 'stuff' to services in most economies which can and should be encouraged by governments.

What might the mechanisms be - politically achievable ones I mean - that would persuade people to consume less physical stuff? Tax based on materials weight is fine in principle but incredibly difficult to implement as it tends to be very regressive/inequitable. Not realistic IMO, any more than it's realistic to accelerate the attainment of peak population, other than by some win-win development strategies such as education in the poorest countries. At national levels, a faster levelling off of population will cause havoc as aging cohorts suck the life out of smaller younger segments. Even if you could achieve it by, say, incentivising childlessness.

So, given that the biggest and most urgent issue remains human-induced global climate change (local environmental harms can be mitigated locally, even though patchily), we should do the thing that is feasible, which is to decarbonise the core of the economy (electricity gen, transportation and home heating) as quickly as reasonably achievable, which we pretty much know how to do now. Rather than keep going on about how hard that is.

And tax carbon equitably, the obvious being aviation fuel

 

[AndyP12345]

And tax carbon equitably, the obvious being aviation fuel

Why is the obvious one Aviation fuel?
if we tax consumption and we tax equitably then a data tax would be a good way ahead. Carbon emissions from Internet usage accounts for roughly the same as aviation so we could tax data and device consumption as well as fossil fuel use. A tax equivalent to that levied of fuel levied on data so each mobile and broadband connection would be taxed on usage. All the info is available at the network providers all we would need is a billing system

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Why is the obvious one Aviation fuel?
if we tax consumption and we tax equitably then a data tax would be a good way ahead. Carbon emissions from Internet usage accounts for roughly the same as aviation so we could tax data and device consumption as well as fossil fuel use. A tax equivalent to that levied of fuel levied on data so each mobile and broadband connection would be taxed on usage. All the info is available at the network providers all we would need is a billing system

I suspect that will happen in the future. Internet has a considerable carbon footprint.

 

[66tim99]

Why is the obvious one Aviation fuel?
if we tax consumption and we tax equitably then a data tax would be a good way ahead. Carbon emissions from Internet usage accounts for roughly the same as aviation so we could tax data and device consumption as well as fossil fuel use. A tax equivalent to that levied of fuel levied on data so each mobile and broadband connection would be taxed on usage. All the info is available at the network providers all we would need is a billing system

You shouldnt be able to fly to Greece from London cheaper than a train to Leeds. Aviation fuel is exempt from tax yet reducing your air miles is the single most effective carbon reduction move many people in the west can make.
https://airqualitynews.com/2019/05/10/exclusive-report-is-it-high-time-airlines-paid-tax-on-fuel/

 

[Algor]

Anyways... slightly(!) off topic but as we were talking about the media and The Telegraph specifically. Some searingly insightful journalistic analysis from its chief political correspondent in today's edition:

View attachment 72204
(I can only hope - even though I couldn't detect - that's meant sarcastically. The alternative is too stupid to contemplate).

Indeed it is. My Great Grandfather fought in the Spanish civil war (he was an Irish Scot), I have forgotten who I am supposed to like or dislike as a result of it though.

 

[Algor]

You shouldnt be able to fly to Greece from London cheaper than a train to Leeds. Aviation fuel is exempt from tax yet reducing your air miles is the single most effective carbon reduction move many people in the west can make.
https://airqualitynews.com/2019/05/10/exclusive-report-is-it-high-time-airlines-paid-tax-on-fuel/

I can a train from London to Marseille cheaper than I can get a plane from Manchester to Edinburgh, so how does this work?

 

[Velma's Dad]

I suspect that will happen in the future. Internet has a considerable carbon footprint.

Agree, although hard to tax because server farms can be put anywhere, ie lowest cost location including the taxation regime (Amazon Web Services wouldn't even say where its farms are, until Wikileaks spilled the beans on it).

Same issue of course with taxing aviation fuel, would require international agreement which will surely politically be impossible in the aftermath of coronavirus and its impact on the aviation sector. But who knows.

 

[AndyP12345]

Agree, although hard to tax because server farms can be put anywhere, ie lowest cost location including the taxation regime (Amazon Web Services wouldn't even say where its farms are, until Wikileaks spilled the beans on it).

Same issue of course with taxing aviation fuel, would require international agreement which will surely politically be impossible in the aftermath of coronavirus and its impact on the aviation sector. But who knows.

You don't need to consider the location of the Server farms, you tax at the Point of Use. ISP and Mobile providers already monitor your Data Usage accurately. so you tax there. Fuel Duty is a consumption tax that is levied on the consumer at the Pump so Data Duty is a consumption tax levied on the Consumer. Taxes on Amazon etc are a whole other ball game

 

[pjm-84]

PVs since Feb 2011 which have produced 32.5 megawatts since that time. Hybrid car since 2015 has used just over 10 megawatts and circa 125mpg over 33.5k miles. Self charging hybrid at 65mpg for the last 6500miles. V8 Discovery at 16mpg ish!

Best savings. Our thermostat is rarely about 18degrees and never above 20 (way too hot for us)

 

[Amarillo]

Best savings. Our thermostat is rarely about 18degrees and never above 20 (way too hot for us)

That sounds wonderful. Clare insists on a minimum of 20.5. It’s way too hot for me.

 

[Californication69]

That sounds wonderful. Clare insists on a minimum of 20.5. It’s way too hot for me.

You are lucky, Nicola’s only happy when stove is on and it’s 25 to 27 degrees
I do a breaking bad lookalike - pants & crocs only

 

[willwander]

We are the opposite Mrs willwander throws all the windows and doors open when she has a ‘flush’. Me and the dogs are freezing.

 

[WelshGas]

Methinks some Thyroid Function Tests are in order.

 

[Amarillo]

Methinks some Thyroid Function Tests are in order.

Is that for those of us who feel too hot at 18C or those too cold at 27C, or all of us?

 

[WelshGas]

Is that for those of us who feel too hot at 18C or those too cold at 27C, or all of us?

Both.
Hyperthyroid - higher metabolic rate, prefer cold.
Hypothyroid - lower metabolic rate, prefer heat.

 

[Californication69]

Skinny people thinking they want to put weight on, large un’s want to lose weight.
Wife’s 9 stone, I’m just under 16.
It’s never going to be a happy medium.
Either she puts on or I lose.
And we all know how that discussion is going to pan out

 

[66tim99]

We are the opposite Mrs willwander throws all the windows and doors open when she has a ‘flush’. Me and the dogs are freezing.

Interesting, its more usual for men to be too hot I think. I did hear a suggestion recently that office air-conditioning is 'sexist'. I understand the norm is to set it at 18 degrees, perfect for 'men' but 2 degrees too cold for 'women'. I don't know how accurate that is, but I do see women in my office wearing scarves and fingerless gloves.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Interesting, its more usual for men to be too hot I think. I did hear a suggestion recently that office air-conditioning is 'sexist'. I understand the norm is to set it at 18 degrees, perfect for 'men' but 2 degrees too cold for 'women'. I don't know how accurate that is, but I do see women in my office wearing scarves and fingerless gloves.

I believe that's correct. Or it was when I studied environmental science back in the... well a few years ago anyway. Gender differences in thermal comfort ranges was well established from research.

Empirically, when I set the stat to Mrs VD's preferences I have meat falling off the bone.

 

[willwander]

Interesting, its more usual for men to be too hot I think. I did hear a suggestion recently that office air-conditioning is 'sexist'. I understand the norm is to set it at 18 degrees, perfect for 'men' but 2 degrees too cold for 'women'. I don't know how accurate that is, but I do see women in my office wearing scarves and fingerless gloves.

Women of a certain age have ‘hot flushes’
....apparently lol

 

[BrugseB]

Fair point. I expect the payback is variable, depending on location and conditions.

No, it does not, as long as you consider a large wind mill. Hence the interval given.
Neodumium: modern technology is looking at electromagnets instead of permanent magnets with Neo. And yes, mining rare metals is not a clean en friendly business, no doubt about that https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/jiec.13090. Pity that Sweden/Norway is reluctant to start up mining in Europe, would be much more eco friendly.
And all of us here on this forum has a lot of electronic stuff, accu's and batteries at home with the same rare metals. What bothers me is that all arguments relating to the drawbacks of renewable energy, seems to be no problem for business as usual. Let's learn and search for solutions instead.
IER is indeed sponsered by the Koch brothers... have some troubles with "scientific paper"-evidence quoting "will likely, may have some, can possibly" .
For PV installations: we should embrace Swedish approach and think about "collective" production and use of renewable energy.
Complex, challenging issues indeed...

 

[BrugseB]

From what I read there is very little wrong with a well maintained Euro 6 diesel with Adblue and particulate filter. What has given diesels a bad name is the old smoky engines that are neglected.

That is very true when you look from a environmental point of view - less small particles, less NO2,... When you consider the climate, then you look at reducing CO2 to a level that our "system Earth" can manage. This means you try to convert from fossile propulsion to electric propulsion, an look for a way to generate that electricity without fossile energy.

I personally think that hydrogen can be very interesting as raw material for the chemical industry, or as a energy carrier e.g. as burning fuel for heating (large installations). But I don't believe it's a good idea to use hydrogen as fuel in domestic cars (all the steps of transformation means an electric car is 3x more efficient than a hydrogen car). If ever we would have way surplus of solar and windenergy, than the story could turn...

 

[DavidofHook]

I love the way the Nordic communities come together to drill 200m deep and supply heated water and steam to drive turbines for free.
They get 10 or so house’s to stump up the cash to invest. How cool’s that.

Sorry come late to this but they had a scheme in Southampton many years ago which heated hot water. Not sure if it is still going now.

 

[AndyP12345]

Here is the Southampton scheme ...

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