Renewable energy

[66tim99]

Here is the Southampton scheme ...

Home - Community Energy

www.engie.co.uk

Quite a few of these in the U.K. now. I worked on the Pimlico district heating system which started by harvesting some waste heat from Battersea Power station via a pipe under the Thames. Now residents benefit from cheap electricity generated by burning gas at the combined heat and power plant on site, and the cheap hot water by-product piped around the estate for space heating and pre-heating domestic hot water

 

[Californication69]

Quite a few of these in the U.K. now. I worked on the Pimlico district heating system which started by harvesting some waste heat from Battersea Power station via a pipe under the Thames. Now residents benefit from cheap electricity generated by burning gas at the combined heat and power plant on site, and the cheap hot water by-product piped around the estate for space heating and pre-heating domestic hot water

Glad to see some sense in harvesting, what could have been “wasted” energy

 

[briwy]

I'm not sure the difference is all that great. Offshore turbines do require more steel to make, although have a higher generation output on average. There are also some differences in energy consumption for maintenance ops. Still I haven't spotted a figure greater than 18 months, and most analyses say less than that even for offshore.

I got involved a few years ago at work with offshore turbines and the biggest difference is the plinth that they sit on. These are made from 50mm steel plate 2m wide which are welded together to make the required plinth height. The energy required to produce the steel, roll the sections and weld together is huge. Some of the farms off the East Anglia coast were thought to need 6m long plinths to get down to solid ground but turned out to need 20m.
In addition the maintenance was far greater than expected. So much so that sometimes turbines were out of action for ages before sea conditions were suitable for mainteneance crews to get to them. They even considered building platforms with accomodation on and linking the turbines with walkways. I don't know if that ever went ahead or not and a design life of 25 years is pretty short for all effort.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Glad to see some sense in harvesting, what could have been “wasted” energy

These types of CHP schemes have been a practical option for decades and quite common in some countries. The problem is that they tend to have long payback times (in cash terms) so developers are unlikely even to consider them. Also, developers are not experts in environmental tech, their core competence is in land buying and obtaining planning consents; trying to exploit available incentive schemes for CHP etc is not an area of expertise so is risky for them. Housebuilders want to develop a site quickly, realise the capital gain and move on.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Most Data Centres generate significant heat and then burn more carbon cooling the data halls down. Would be much better to put that heat to good use i.e. heating local houses/offices.

 

[Californication69]

Most Data Centres generate significant heat and then burn more carbon cooling the data halls down. Would be much better to put that heat to good use i.e. heating local houses/offices.

We could host data centres under housing apartments to provide heat !
And super fast BB for out of city remote working. It’s the future !

 

[66tim99]

These types of CHP schemes have been a practical option for decades and quite common in some countries. The problem is that they tend to have long payback times (in cash terms) so developers are unlikely even to consider them. Also, developers are not experts in environmental tech, their core competence is in land buying and obtaining planning consents; trying to exploit available incentive schemes for CHP etc is not an area of expertise so is risky for them. Housebuilders want to develop a site quickly, realise the capital gain and move on.

Yes it’s frustrating but town planners in London are having some success now, implementing GLA efficiency policies. I live in an 11 year old Barratt development of about 450 flats 4 restaurants, a public library, a supermarket a residents gym and a private. We have a biomass CHP in the basement and all buy our heat from EON who run it and sell the electricity into the grid. Has worked flawlessly so far giving us space heating and hot water for c.£10/week for our 4 bed flat, but the CHP does need a weekly truckload of pellets, so I’m not completely convinced it’s carbon footprint is as low as it could be, but must be better than 450 gas boilers...

 

[66tim99]

We could host data centres under housing apartments to provide heat !
And super fast BB for out of city remote working. It’s the future !

Yes a big heat customer is a godsend for any system. Swimming pools are ideal

 

[clarinetbcn]

Here is the Southampton scheme ...

Home - Community Energy

www.engie.co.uk

This is a perfect example of how technology available and in use today can provide solutions to our current non-sustainable abuse of the environment. The only reason these solutions are not more wide spread is dedicated political disinformation.

 

[WelshGas]

This is a perfect example of how technology available and in use today can provide solutions to our current non-sustainable abuse of the environment, The only reason these solutions are not more wide spread is dedicated political disinformation.

“Dedicated Political Disinformation”.

I think it is more likely to be the setup costs and returns unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

 

[clarinetbcn]

“Dedicated Political Disinformation”.

I think it is more likely to be the setup costs and returns unless you have some evidence to the contrary.

This Honda/ University of California Davis house provides all of its energy needs and charges an EV using currently available and economically superior technology. It was used as a test case for the current law in California, that mandates that any new living space must be net zero, e.g., produce as much energy as it uses. The technology is here, the only thing stopping it is political interference from old polluting energy lobbies.

Honda Smart Home at UC Davis West Village Offers Vision For Zero Carbon Living

Honda and the University of California, Davis, today marked the opening of Honda Smart Home US, showcasing technologies that enable zero net energy living and transportation. The home in UC Davis West Village is capable of producing more energy on-site from renewable sources than it consumes...

www.ucdavis.edu

 

[Velma's Dad]

Gotta say sometimes I think the government (or successive governments over past 20 years or more) can't really win. On one side they're accused of being in league with fossil fuel companies to drag heels on environmental policy, and from the other side they get beaten up when they promote green policies to decarbonise...

 

[clarinetbcn]

This Honda/ University of California Davis house provides all of its energy needs and charges an EV using currently available and economically superior technology. It was used as a test case for the current law in California, that mandates that any new living space must be net zero, e.g., produce as much energy as it uses. The technology is here, the only thing stopping it is political interference from old polluting energy lobbies.

Honda Smart Home at UC Davis West Village Offers Vision For Zero Carbon Living

Honda and the University of California, Davis, today marked the opening of Honda Smart Home US, showcasing technologies that enable zero net energy living and transportation. The home in UC Davis West Village is capable of producing more energy on-site from renewable sources than it consumes...

www.ucdavis.edu

Honda Smart Home US

A vision for zero carbon living and mobility.

www.hondasmarthome.com

 

[WelshGas]

This Honda/ University of California Davis house provides all of its energy needs and charges an EV using currently available and economically superior technology. It was used as a test case for the current law in California, that mandates that any new living space must be net zero, e.g., produce as much energy as it uses. The technology is here, the only thing stopping it is political interference from old polluting energy lobbies.

Honda Smart Home at UC Davis West Village Offers Vision For Zero Carbon Living

Honda and the University of California, Davis, today marked the opening of Honda Smart Home US, showcasing technologies that enable zero net energy living and transportation. The home in UC Davis West Village is capable of producing more energy on-site from renewable sources than it consumes...

www.ucdavis.edu

Aah, yes. California, the Sunshine State.

 

[clarinetbcn]

Aah, yes. California, the Sunshine State.

I quote you from a recent thread: "And?" "Have you have anything better to offer?" Don't worry, if you need them I have screen shots.

 

[WelshGas]

I quote you from a recent thread: "And?" "Have you have anything better to offer?" Don't worry, if you need them I have screen shots.

Really upto date.

 

[clarinetbcn]

View attachment 72404

Really upto date.

Yes, Honda/ Universtity of California showed that net zero housing, plus charging an EV, was possible using current technology in 2014. The past 7 years of delay and obfuscation have been purely political, a fake news that was promoted by Trump and has damaged us all.The project continues today.
You are retired... in your field today, this level of disconnection from current research would make you irrelevant to current policy makers. I think, based on years of reading your posts, that when you are not obsessed with insulting those that disagree with you, you have a fascination with finding out the truth. So do I.

 

[Wildcamper]

Hull proposed as Europe's first rare earth metal processing site!

 

[WelshGas]

Yes, Honda/ Universtity of California showed that net zero housing, plus charging an EV, was possible using current technology in 2014. The past 7 years of delay and obfuscation have been purely political, a fake news that was promoted by Trump and has damaged us all.The project continues today.
You are retired... in your field today, this level of disconnection from current research would make you irrelevant to current policy makers. I think, based on years of reading your posts, that when you are not obsessed with insulting those that disagree with you, you have a fascination with finding out the truth. So do I.

You have a very high opinion of yourself and a very low opinion of others, which means in the grand scheme of things you are irrelevant. A pity really.

 

[Velma's Dad]

The trouble with "demonstrator" schemes like the California example and the long-running work at the Building Research Establishment in the UK is that there are structural barriers in the housebuilding sector that prevent the transfer of those now quite well-established energy efficiency techniques into the marketplace. (This was the subject of an MSc dissertation I wrote more than 15 years ago but it looks like little has changed since then.)

As I said in my last post on this thread, housebuilders are not product designers, they are land developers. There is very little consumer demand for energy efficiency innovation in new houses/flats - buyers are looking for location, affordability to purchase, and then a nice kitchen and bathroom etc. The effect of EPCs as a driver of choice when buying is very weak.

It's been left therefore to government to try to 'regulate in' energy efficiency, through gradual tightening of building regs but these only govern individual aspects/components of a building. However there's still no 'holistic' yardstick at a mandatory level, so a developer can sell brand new units that still only meet level C on the EPC.

Of course in the UK the biggest issue is with the existing housing stock. The notion of "whole house retrofits" probably needs to be a major component of energy strategy but these are very expensive and have long payback periods. A rational house buyer is very unlikely to invest such a large amount in a property that they're probably going to live in for a few years but which will then not add much to the resale value versus, say, building an extension or a loft conversion. Research has shown that quite a few consumers wouldn't accept a major retrofit project even if it was offered to them free of charge.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Just read the "top five things we've learned" on the California house. Interesting to see an honest appraisal of pros/cons.

We've lucky enough to be able to do major 'retrofits' of our last two houses - the current one was practically gutted. Here's a few things we've learnt.

1. Location and orientation are major factors. Obviously you can't govern that for an existing house but make the most of the available solar gain as far as you can. We put a 'glass box' room on the south side of the house. The generous roof overhang stops it getting too hot in summer but on a sunny winter's day like today the low sun heats the dark coloured wood floor blocks and slab.

2. You can't go too far with insulation. For our current house we went the whole hog and applied the 'duvet principle' of 100mm of external wall insulation. It meant raising the roof level to maintain the eaves depths but that then allowed more roof insulation too. Result: house stays and feels warm. Downside in our case: after careful analysis (looked at sheep's wool, the lot) I chose Kingspan external wall insulation... like Grenfell. Fully expecting it will create major issues when we come to sell - thankfully no plans to move.

3. Underfloor heating. Great in some ways but not ideal for everyone. Works for us as house is occupied most of the day. But takes a LONG time to heat up/cool down. So only consider if you combine with excellent insulation of the building envelope. Also, not an ideal combo with wood-burners, unless you run the stoves constantly for background heat.

4. Solar. We went for wet solar in the last house, 15 years ago it made sense. However I've no idea how the economics worked out as no way to measure effect on domestic HW usage (no before/after data). In current house I have left options to install PV although not done so yet.

5. Heating system. Twice have looked at ground source heat pumps and chickened out. But I wish now I had put in the internal pipework in readiness for the externals as and when.

6. Controls. Last house I set up eight different control zones (it was a big house, admittedly) and have seven where we are now, which is too many. In practice once novelty has worn off it's not worthwhile. Also when one of the smart stats plays up there's no easy way to over-ride it. Better to keep it simple and spend the money on... even more insulation!

 

[clarinetbcn]

@Velma's Dad I think unfortunately that is still true, but the fact that a consumer-run electric company like SomEnergia, which only produces with renewables, exists in Barcelona, is profitable and is growing shows that I'm not alone. My flat, built in 1890 and historically protected, has produced all it's own electricity, including heating and aircon, since 2019, when the Spanish PP's infamous "Tax on the Sun" was repealed. Total cost of the system, with discounts from buying as a collective of 100 households, city of Barcelona subsidy of 60%, and compensation for excess generated during the day applied to energy used at night, 2700 euros. You're right, it's a political and regulatory decision.

 

[Wildcamper]

Electric cars are not the only green solution | Electric, hybrid and low-emission cars | The Guardian

Letters:<strong> </strong><strong>Chris Barker </strong>says more cars of any kind are bad news for pollution, while <strong>Dr Robin Russell-Jones </strong>believes British entrepreneurs can rise to the challenge of ‘green growth’

amp.theguardian.com

Still believe overpopulation is the elephant in the room that all Governments are too afraid to discuss - no it won't be easy! Papering over the cracks is fine if it buys time while the underlying problem is fixed. Papering over the cracks and not fixing the cause (been like this for the 30 years I have been involved in environmental issues) will achieve very little.

 

[BrugseB]

Well, for "spoiled" W-European citizens the unconvenient truth may be that not overpopulation but overconsumption is the obvious elephant in my opinion. Not an easy issue to discuss though, when you're living in the right place on Earth... I myself am also quiet keen on my large car, my beatiful house, and yes, my beautiful wife (cfr Talking Heads )

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Well, for "spoiled" W-European citizens the unconvenient truth may be that not overpopulation but overconsumption is the obvious elephant in my opinion. Not an easy issue to discuss though, when you're living in the right place on Earth... I myself am also quiet keen on my large car, my beatiful house, and yes, my beautiful wife (cfr Talking Heads )

a bit of a tangent. I never got to see Talking Heads live but have seen David Byrne 5 times. The American Utopia show in Oxford a couple of years ago was truly amazing.