Rough Road California.

[Skewif]

September is our preferred month for the Alps. Last September we did another 'grand tour' of everything Alps BUT the West Alps.
We think there might be others on here (e.g. Iceland-goers like ourselves, or people who have rugged their Cali for rough road driving, like @zeratul, @estresao, @kave, @Ciki62) who would love going to the West Alps.

But next Sept we plan to be in Norway again. No plans yet for May/June, but then many of the higher passes will still be closed because of the snow...

That was quite grand indeed, looks like a very nice way to spend September. A meet up in Norway sounds good to me also. I'm planning to go there in 2019 but not sure what month as want to avoid peak season and the midges.
Do you know roughly when all the higher passes are clear in the western Alps? I've not been there in June before but was hoping they would be clear of show by then.

If anyone fancies a meet up in the alps in September I'm well up for it.

 

[bvddobb]

Do you know roughly when all the higher passes are clear in the western Alps? I've not been there in June before but was hoping they would be clear of show by then.

This is going nicely off-topic now...

Usually we go in Autumn. But we have been on the Route des Grandes Alpes once in June, and by mid-June one pass was just opening when we got there and two others were still closed, we had to detour them. And that route is all on regular, maintained roads. The old West Alps military tracks are not maintained, so you have every chance that many off them are still not passable by mid-June.

 

[Roger Boeken]

Like Steve said. Yes a small raise in the CoG but more than made up for by much stiffer and progressive rear springs. Prior to the work done the faster you corner the more extreme the roll became. Would get to a point of feeling scary when pushed and incredibly un comfortable being at such an angle. Now there is only a fraction of the roll and when pushed the van stays relatively level until limit of traction. I can now overtake cars on roundabouts without fear as have vastly improved cornering ability and a fraction of the roll. Fact.

Just how fast are you cornering that you reach the limtit of 4motion traction?
I'm concerned that all improvements you made don't let you feel anymore you are pushing the car to dangerous limits and taking away the fear as you describe it may make you reckless.
But as said before we are all probably just jealous that you found the time and the money to tune the car as you did.

 

[sidepod]

Just how fast are you cornering that you reach the limtit of 4motion traction?
I'm concerned that all improvements you made don't let you feel anymore you are pushing the car to dangerous limits and taking away the fear as you describe it may make you reckless.
But as said before we are all probably just jealous that you found the time and the money to tune the car as you did.

Precisely. It’ll probably now have a digital characteristic at the edge of tyre mechanical grip. In other words it’ll just let go instead of a progressive slip.

VW chassis engineers a pretty good.

 

[Bellcrew]

I think what you perceive as improvement is the changed conditions brought about by new bushes and springs etc.

As long as the placebo allows you to “overtake cars on roundabouts” then all good.


In 25 yrs of designing performance vehicles and countless vehicle dynamics meetings I can’t recall anyone suggesting an increase in ride height to reduce lap time.

Whatever. Crack on.

What we really need is a track day with some tame racing driver lapping in the various types of California.

1) Standard set up.
2) Up-rated ARB's/lowered springs factory mods.
3) The fairly tame none standard modifications detailed above
4) Full race spec with a massive boost to power together with the finest shocks/springs/wheels, tyres etc money no object.

It would give us objective results and a memorable day out.

 

[CALI FATE]

Hahaha... love you Sidepod. Shame I didn't know it was all in my imagination before as would have saved me from all the work and expense. Cracking on. X

I think Sidepod should have his own forum - Ask Sidepod

 

[Kmann]

@Skewif looks great! Is there any particular reason to select a permanent solution over VB air, other than price and possibility of failure in the air system? Where did you get the protection for the car (Seikel)?

 

[sidepod]

 

[Skewif]

Just how fast are you cornering that you reach the limtit of 4motion traction?
I'm concerned that all improvements you made don't let you feel anymore you are pushing the car to dangerous limits and taking away the fear as you describe it may make you reckless.
But as said before we are all probably just jealous that you found the time and the money to tune the car as you did.

Reckless is my middle name. Coming from a motor racing background finding the limits is just something I can't stop myself doing be it motor bike, car or van. IMO and simplified: When entering a corner at a constant speed that gradually tightens the std Cali steering rapidly looses accurate response to steering input. The excessive body roll upsets the geometry of suspension in relation to the road, this loads the outer edge of the tyres and everything goes really wooly. So wooly that at a relatively slow cornering speed steering input and the response to it becomes poor and sometimes scary if you misjudged entry speed, camber etc.

If you significantly reduce body roll by whatever means the geometry is far closer to correct and the tyres more evenly loaded across their footprint when cornering. The result of doing this pushes the point of steering loss in cornering to a greater G (speed) and gives you far more responsive control up to that point.

To an average far less aggressive driver than myself there are lots of benefits too. Less roll = more comfort. Better handling = more driving pleasure on twisty road. Pushing the breakaway point while cornering to a far greater speed you have a much larger margin for error for day to day driving =safety.

Breakaway is not "digital" (!?) but progressive only now at a higher cornering G. To me and the way I like to drive (swift/smooth) the breakaway has now been moved way outside my normal driving style and thats why I'm so happy with what I'v done.

Sidepod. VW chassis engineers are very good at making a one size fits all compromise suspension for the Cali. I'm purely demonstrating that significant improvements can be made to match an individuals requirements. Each to their own.

 

[Skewif]

What we really need is a track day with some tame racing driver lapping in the various types of California.

1) Standard set up.
2) Up-rated ARB's/lowered springs factory mods.
3) The fairly tame none standard modifications detailed above
4) Full race spec with a massive boost to power together with the finest shocks/springs/wheels, tyres etc money no object.

It would give us objective results and a memorable day out.

Can I be The Stig!

 

[T6 CFO]

Can I be The Stig!

Nope! It needs someone independent who has made no changes. Like me.


Mike

 

[Bellcrew]

Nope! It needs someone independent who has made no changes. Like me.


Mike

Granny Jen?

 

[Skewif]

@Skewif looks great! Is there any particular reason to select a permanent solution over VB air, other than price and possibility of failure in the air system? Where did you get the protection for the car (Seikel)?

Granny Jen?

Granny Stig? Needs to be anonymous!

 

[Skewif]

@Skewif looks great! Is there any particular reason to select a permanent solution over VB air, other than price and possibility of failure in the air system? Where did you get the protection for the car (Seikel)?

I did look into VB. Their main line of business is smooth soft suspension for mobility transport, heavy equipment etc. While it is without doubt a truly wonderful bit of kit for something like the Cali it's focus of design was not rough road. There is more to making a worthy off roader than just changing to an adjustable hight spring. Due to an increasing demand for more rugged off road vehicle's (more raising less slamming) I have it from good authority that they are looking into a more off road suited version. VB by all accounts is a very reliable system. Cost was a factor but I feel it's money well spent if it benefits your style.
At the end of the day I have very particular requirements. By building it myself I can swap components in and out to tune it to how I want. This is my first attempt at tuning a Cali and so far I'm really chuffed with the results. After a couple of months up in the mountains I may want to do more.
There is a spanner in the works though. Yesterday I was invited to test in extreme conditions a pre production extra rugged UK modified T6. I just hope doing so doesn't pop my happy little bubble.

Skid plates are made by Rival. More than strong enough for my needs.

 

[sidepod]

Reckless is my middle name. Coming from a motor racing background finding the limits is just something I can't stop myself doing be it motor bike, car or van. IMO and simplified: When entering a corner at a constant speed that gradually tightens the std Cali steering rapidly looses accurate response to steering input. The excessive body roll upsets the geometry of suspension in relation to the road, this loads the outer edge of the tyres and everything goes really wooly. So wooly that at a relatively slow cornering speed steering input and the response to it becomes poor and sometimes scary if you misjudged entry speed, camber etc.

If you significantly reduce body roll by whatever means the geometry is far closer to correct and the tyres more evenly loaded across their footprint when cornering. The result of doing this pushes the point of steering loss in cornering to a greater G (speed) and gives you far more responsive control up to that point.

To an average far less aggressive driver than myself there are lots of benefits too. Less roll = more comfort. Better handling = more driving pleasure on twisty road. Pushing the breakaway point while cornering to a far greater speed you have a much larger margin for error for day to day driving =safety.

Breakaway is not "digital" (!?) but progressive only now at a higher cornering G. To me and the way I like to drive (swift/smooth) the breakaway has now been moved way outside my normal driving style and thats why I'm so happy with what I'v done.

Sidepod. VW chassis engineers are very good at making a one size fits all compromise suspension for the Cali. I'm purely demonstrating that significant improvements can be made to match an individuals requirements. Each to their own.

WOW.

Clearly you don’t fully grasp suspension geometry.

You talk of maintaining contact patch by whatever means. Surely you mean increasing negative camber? Why didn’t you simply adjust it? It is shimable.

VW vans are generally set up with negative camber at static or Design ride height.

This usually goes more negative (a good thing for lateral tyre loads, within reason) with bump or reduced ride height.

Raising the ride height as you’ve done will probably have reduced the negative camber, possibly even inducing neutral or positive condition and ultimately reducing contact patch lateral loading.

I’m not looking to poke fun or pick holes in your project but I genuinely wonder if you created an inherently unstable vehicle. ?

It’s very easy to adjust ride conditions so it feels nice and positive/firm etc but in reality, at the limit it’s anything but.

I wonder if your van would pass the Elk test?

 

[Velma's Dad]

I wonder if your van would pass the Elk test?

Now you got me worrying all over Christmas-time about Skewif AND Rudolph.

 

[sidepod]

Now you got me worrying all over Christmas-time about Skewif AND Rudolph.

I think we’ve established Skewif is the sort of character that would appreciate an elk.

 

[GrannyJen]

I think we’ve established Skewif is the sort of character that would appreciate an elk.

Mountain goats, four of them ....... 4WD..... one at each corner

 

[Skewif]

WOW.

Clearly you don’t fully grasp suspension geometry.

You talk of maintaining contact patch by whatever means. Surely you mean increasing negative camber? Why didn’t you simply adjust it? It is shimable.

VW vans are generally set up with negative camber at static or Design ride height.

This usually goes more negative (a good thing for lateral tyre loads, within reason) with bump or reduced ride height.

Raising the ride height as you’ve done will probably have reduced the negative camber, possibly even inducing neutral or positive condition and ultimately reducing contact patch lateral loading.

I’m not looking to poke fun or pick holes in your project but I genuinely wonder if you created an inherently unstable vehicle. ?

It’s very easy to adjust ride conditions so it feels nice and positive/firm etc but in reality, at the limit it’s anything but.

I wonder if your van would pass the Elk test?

Dear Sidepod, First you claim it's against the laws of physics to be able to raise a vehicle AND reduce roll / improve cornering/handling. This is simply not true. Look at a rally car, higher than std but handles way better and near zero roll compared to pre mod. I've also done this to my van, it's higher, it rolls less and has increased cornering ability due to a combination factors / parts. I'm sure there are others who can confirm it's possible to go up with less roll by the use of stronger springs and ARB's. Though we could all be in the Twilight Zone as you suggest.

As for "You talk of maintaining contact patch by whatever means." i actually said "If you significantly reduce body roll by whatever means the geometry is far closer to correct and the tyres more evenly loaded across their footprint when cornering. Sorry if you misunderstood that, I felt it was perfectly clear.

A new empty T5 is higher than mine so within design height therefore camber angles just fine thanks. In fact front camber more neg due to TCA now being more horizontal and rear designed to be correct no matter what ride hight.

Re: "I’m not looking to poke fun or pick holes in your project". You are trying to pick holes with no evidence and flawed arguments. Please don't poop on my work without facts. Re: "but I genuinely wonder if you created an inherently unstable vehicle". Van is very stable thanks, much better than before on all types of road and terrain and at all speeds. With all this doomsaying and melodrama you sound just like my mum...... Mum?

 

[Skewif]

View attachment 28495

Nice looking motorbike but really puzzled as to its relevance on this thread, can you explain?

 

[Skewif]

Now you got me worrying all over Christmas-time about Skewif AND Rudolph.

It's okay, we've split up... judge said we had to.

 

[Skewif]

Mountain goats, four of them ....... 4WD..... one at each corner

What a great idea! Take wheels off and fit a mountain goat on each corner. Though even for VW the emissions will be pretty shitty

 

[sidepod]

Nice looking motorbike but really puzzled as to its relevance on this thread, can you explain?

I was poking fun at myself.

The pic is of Mr Know it All. He had a feature in a 70s bike mag and used to pull apart peoples letters and belittle them. It was genuinely hilarious. That said he was a genius.

Clearly you are a suspension guru!

I’m considering repaying all of the F1 win bonus I’ve earned over the years as I clearly know zip! That’ll be another mortgage then.

 

[larrylamb]

 

[Skewif]

I was poking fun at myself.

The pic is of Mr Know it All. He had a feature in a 70s bike mag and used to pull apart peoples letters and belittle them. It was genuinely hilarious. That said he was a genius.

Clearly you are a suspension guru!

I’m considering repaying all of the F1 win bonus I’ve earned over the years as I clearly know zip! That’ll be another mortgage then.

Sidepod, You have clearly had a charmed life to work in F1, it was a dream of mine once. I ended up in the far less glamorous world of club and national rallying, building cars, pit crew and competing. I would never say I'm a guru, but I may have a better than average idea of how it all works. (IMO)

Best wishes to you this Christmas.