The sad demise of cash.

[Velma's Dad]

Yeah China is a great model to follow.

You people are insane advocating for CDBCs and the removal of cash...

"...a fully implemented CBDC gives the government complete control over the money going into and coming out of every person’s account. This level of government control is incompatible with both economic and political freedom.

A CBDC is the perfect tool for the Chinese communist party, and that’s exactly why all non-autocratic governments should avoid creating one."

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/digita...c-are-instruments-of-control-and-theyre-here/

and don't say it doesn't affect you because you have nothing to hide.

Whistleblower and anti-surveillance advocate Edward Snowden remarked that "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say."[9] From his perspective, governments are obligated to protect citizens' right to privacy, and people who argue in favor of the nothing to hide argument are too willing to accept government infringement upon those rights.

Nothing to hide argument - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't think anyone on here is advocating banning cash on the Chinese model, nor of having a cashless society based on a CBDC (central bank digital currency). But the reality already is that it's becoming impossible to function in day to day society without some form of (commercial) banking and payment. As far as I can see, that's resulted from commercial momentum, not (UK) government policy. Even Universal Credit recipients can choose to receive cash if they're unable to have a bank account.

No, we can't/shouldn't conclude that someone who chooses to run their life via cash (where they can, ie provided they can find people prepared to accept that cash in exchange for goods and services) is prima facie up to no good. But at the same time it's pretty clear that people who do choose to transact in cash in large quantities will *most often* be doing so with criminal motives.

In democracies the right to privacy is always necessarily a qualified one. Few would I think argue that the state should not have the right to access your personal data when there is reasonable grounds to believe a crime has been committed. What matters then, presumably, is the body of processes, set by parliament, that exist to prevent abuse of that power.

 

[Musket]

Yeah China is a great model to follow.

You people are insane advocating for CDBCs and the removal of cash...

"...a fully implemented CBDC gives the government complete control over the money going into and coming out of every person’s account. This level of government control is incompatible with both economic and political freedom.

A CBDC is the perfect tool for the Chinese communist party, and that’s exactly why all non-autocratic governments should avoid creating one."

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/digita...c-are-instruments-of-control-and-theyre-here/

and don't say it doesn't affect you because you have nothing to hide.

Whistleblower and anti-surveillance advocate Edward Snowden remarked that "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say."[9] From his perspective, governments are obligated to protect citizens' right to privacy, and people who argue in favor of the nothing to hide argument are too willing to accept government infringement upon those rights.

Nothing to hide argument - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Heh Heh! Nice one. No idea what this has to do with Edward Snowden or political freedom. Our lives can be traced if the police wish anyway, as you’d find if someone nicked your camper… Cash is expensive to make and handle. We don’t actually own money, never have. It’s purely a token system set against central bank capacity, regardless of form.

There is no difference between bearer bond (cash) and proxy bond (electronic transfer) to us, the users of money. I can’t think of any legitimate reason whatsoever to take it out of an ATM first if the final journey is through the books of those you purchase from. I can think of many illegitimate ones though. The pickpocket in Italy who had my iPhone last year will still manage to get something for it even though I bricked it within minutes via my watch. I doubt the person he sold it to payed anything other than cash for it. Wonderful article in one of the newspapers recently about Facebook and Twitter memes about losing cash access and where the memes originate. Spoiler alert, it isn’t the man in the street…

The sooner banks stop seeing technological progress as a cash cow the sooner we can move on.

 

[KevH]

Bartering is the way forward

or perhaps when you want your new California, you could like the East Germans 40 years ago put your name on a list and then, perhaps, your grandchildren could get one in thirty years time.....

the problem with all this is it is not cash it is CREDIT!

Er…that’s a bit of a generalisation and a different discussion I think.
I have saved to buy my last four vehicles outright. No CREDIT.
I paid electronically not with a wheelbarrow full of cash. And I think it’s that distinction that is being debated here.

 

[secret lemonade drinker]

Er…that’s a bit of a generalisation and a different discussion I think.
I have saved to buy my last four vehicles outright. No CREDIT.
I paid electronically not with a wheelbarrow full of cash. And I think it’s that distinction that is being debated here.

You'll be the minority then

 

[secret lemonade drinker]

When you all come to the Lake District without cash...don't bank on getting a chinese Takeaway!

 

[pjm-84]

Well I've done 5 or 6 car parks over the last 3 days in Northumberland ......all on card. About £20 ish

Interesting about the Chinese takeaway in the Lakes....only had one once, in Keswick, but can't recall how I paid. On the assumption that they are tax avoiding, I'm happy to give them a miss.

Quick scan on company returns coming up

 

[pjm-84]

Just Eat success exposes Hull takeaway owner's £350k tax fraud

Inquiries revealed that, from Just Eat and Hungry House alone, the turnover was £950,990 - just over three times the figure that she had reported to HMRC for the whole business

www.hulldailymail.co.uk

 

[secret lemonade drinker]

Just Eat success exposes Hull takeaway owner's £350k tax fraud

Inquiries revealed that, from Just Eat and Hungry House alone, the turnover was £950,990 - just over three times the figure that she had reported to HMRC for the whole business

www.hulldailymail.co.uk

HMIT undercover?

 

[Marco Venturi]

There is not a single chinese takeaway in North West Cumbria that accepts plastic.
There are three Fish & Chip Shops all in Keswick that have a cashless payment system.
Cumbria will be the last county to go completely cashless

With the demise of Cumbria County Council, it might be argued by those who live in the historic county of Cumberland (never actually abolished in 1972), or in the (slightly smaller) newly configured area now administered by "Cumberland Council", that "the last county to go completely cashless" will be somewhere else. Might even be Westmorland (now administered by Westmorland and Furness Council as part of its remit which, ironically, includes the other part of Cumberland, part of Yorkshire and Lancashire North of the Sands).
Yes, you guessed it, I like using cash though I do embrace "plastic" when appropriate.

 

[The Tall Luthier]

Yeah China is a great model to follow.

You people are insane advocating for CDBCs and the removal of cash...

"...a fully implemented CBDC gives the government complete control over the money going into and coming out of every person’s account. This level of government control is incompatible with both economic and political freedom.

A CBDC is the perfect tool for the Chinese communist party, and that’s exactly why all non-autocratic governments should avoid creating one."

Source: https://www.forbes.com/sites/digita...c-are-instruments-of-control-and-theyre-here/

and don't say it doesn't affect you because you have nothing to hide.

Whistleblower and anti-surveillance advocate Edward Snowden remarked that "Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say."[9] From his perspective, governments are obligated to protect citizens' right to privacy, and people who argue in favor of the nothing to hide argument are too willing to accept government infringement upon those rights.

Nothing to hide argument - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I understand your concerns, the implications of the loss of financial freedom are significant.

However it’s all inevitable. In the last five years alone we’ve started to associate cash payments, not with freedom to choose, but criminality of one sort or another. The public mindset is to enjoy the convenience and damn those that refuse to conform as tax dodgers.

I think it might be a bit like bolting the door after the horse has bolted though. The vast majority of people on the planet can now have there personalities described to a tee by the likes of Google, Instagram, Facebook et al. Scarily so. Their privacy needs have been trumped by their desire for convenience in all matters.

This is the least of their worries, given that their purchase history cannot be used by banks and governments to influence their thoughts, unlike FB and Google.

 

[Wannabecamperman]

I agree that in general electronic payment is faster, cleaner and more efficient. I flash my phone at cashiers as much as the next teen . I love paying electronically.

However, the technology used in car parks is way way behind most other places that take electronic payment - shops, hotels, etc. Can’t wait for it to improve.

By the way, I never have a problem finding the right change. I always have a money bag in the van with about £20 worth in. But then I’m often accused of over planning things.

I recently decided to use a chewing gum plastic container to hold all of my parking coins in the car. It works surprisingly well with no rattles and has the lid securely closed. Kept in the storage bin.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Er…that’s a bit of a generalisation and a different discussion I think.
I have saved to buy my last four vehicles outright. No CREDIT.
I paid electronically not with a wheelbarrow full of cash. And I think it’s that distinction that is being debated here.

I suspect the point that Secret Lemonade Drinker was making is that all cash and money is, many econmists argue, ultimately a form of credit/debt. It is only a promise to pay, with no absolute security.

Credit theory of money - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In a fiat currency system (ie not backed by gold) new money is created when a commercial bank creates a new loan for you. The bank puts a number of digital pounds into your personal bank ledger, which you regard as "money" because you can then exchange those digits with other people, who also regard it as "money".

So when you pay for your parking with a card, you are really only paying with an ethereal socio-economic construct, if that makes you feel any better.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

I’m happy with card payment, especially given the number of banks that have closed locally - resulting in less ATM’s. Quite often when you do find a working ATM in a shop etc. you often have to pay a surcharge to use it!

Parking apps are not a problem for us, as we tend to use the same car parks so only need to install the app once.

The attraction of cash used to be cheaper building work, etc. But this seems to have stopped with many now charging 20% vat on cash payment - and now find that some get the hump when you ask for an invoice including the vat prior to / on payment…which they would need anyway to put it through the books…they can’t have it both ways!

It’s far easier to keep records with bank transfer & card payments.

 

[larrylamb]

According to The Bank of England there are approx twice as many notes in circulation as there was 10 years ago.

 

[Velma's Dad]

According to The Bank of England there are approx twice as many notes in circulation as there was 10 years ago.

Just googled that. Much of the growth seems to be £20 and £50 notes.

The Bank of England reckons: "The evidence available indicates that no more than half of Bank of England notes in circulation are likely to be held for use within the domestic economy for legitimate purposes."

The majority of British banknotes when tested show traces of cocaine.

 

[larrylamb]

Just googled that. Much of the growth seems to be £20 and £50 notes.

The Bank of England reckons: "The evidence available indicates that no more than half of Bank of England notes in circulation are likely to be held for use within the domestic economy for legitimate purposes."

The majority of British banknotes when tested show traces of cocaine.

We do have growth in some markets then

 

[secret lemonade drinker]

Made and printed in wigton, Cumbria, on a plastic film so it can be laundered easier

 

[BenPcaliman]

all I can say is. use it or lose it

 

[procrastinator]

I don't often post, usually keep my head down, but feel compelled this time.
I own a business and am happy to accept cash or card payment, cash payments are usually less than £50.00 so not money laundering amounts.
My business bank charges almost 1% to pay cash in, so I pay myself partly in cash to remove it from my business, my personal bank now limits the amount I can pay in annually to £20,000.00.
I resent the implication that I am a crook! I pay VAT and income tax and national insurance, why would anybody volunteer to pay the bank almost 1%?
One customer laughingly told me he never uses cash now, I pointed out that the banks do charge for the use of cards, he replied that he did not pay, it was me the retailer, when I replied, did he not think I had put the price up to cover this, he looked shocked!
I shall now wait to be attacked and told what an idiot I am!

 

[edocali]

In democracies the right to privacy is always necessarily a qualified one. Few would I think argue that the state should not have the right to access your personal data when there is reasonable grounds to believe a crime has been committed. What matters then, presumably, is the body of processes, set by parliament, that exist to prevent abuse of that power.

most governments, even democracies, can turn nasty against honest but "annoying" people.
The US and UK persecuted Julian Assange just by using the law and the police.

And in many places, being annoying can turn nasty...
Gunmen tried to assassinate a Tanzanian opposition politician after a telecoms company secretly passed his mobile phone data to the government, according to evidence heard in a London tribunal.

Firm disclosed phone data of shot Tanzanian politician, UK tribunal hears

Tigo’s former investigator claims he was unfairly dismissed for raising concerns over 2017 attack on Tundu Lissu

www.theguardian.com

An apocriphal quote of Thomas Jefferson famously goes:
"When people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

 

[KevH]

I don't often post, usually keep my head down, but feel compelled this time.
I own a business and am happy to accept cash or card payment, cash payments are usually less than £50.00 so not money laundering amounts.
My business bank charges almost 1% to pay cash in, so I pay myself partly in cash to remove it from my business, my personal bank now limits the amount I can pay in annually to £20,000.00.
I resent the implication that I am a crook! I pay VAT and income tax and national insurance, why would anybody volunteer to pay the bank almost 1%?
One customer laughingly told me he never uses cash now, I pointed out that the banks do charge for the use of cards, he replied that he did not pay, it was me the retailer, when I replied, did he not think I had put the price up to cover this, he looked shocked!
I shall now wait to be attacked and told what an idiot I am!

Well said.
There are some shocking baseless generalisations being made on this thread which detract from what was an interesting initial posting.

 

[Velma's Dad]

most governments, even democracies, can turn nasty against honest but "annoying" people.
The US and UK persecuted Julian Assange just by using the law and the police.

And in many places, being annoying can turn nasty...
Gunmen tried to assassinate a Tanzanian opposition politician after a telecoms company secretly passed his mobile phone data to the government, according to evidence heard in a London tribunal.

Firm disclosed phone data of shot Tanzanian politician, UK tribunal hears

Tigo’s former investigator claims he was unfairly dismissed for raising concerns over 2017 attack on Tundu Lissu

www.theguardian.com

An apocriphal quote of Thomas Jefferson famously goes:
"When people fear the government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

Yep the rule of law certainly can't prevent lawful abuses of power by individuals and public institutions. I'm in the middle of Theresa' May's quite dull but nevertheless insightful book on that subject. But I don't personally subscribe to the view that the government, as a body of politicians and civil servants, ought to be seen as necessarily separate from the people or that a relationship based on fear on either side is useful. That adversarial mindset pervades US politics and the consequent erosion of trust is currently being exploited once again by the weirdo in the red baseball cap.

Anyway, if you want to run your life in cash, with its virtual guarantee of anonymity, the UK's government isn't (so far) stopping you. Although I'd have to acknowledge that if it finds you "annoying" enough it certainly can intervene - eg if the police have credible enough evidence to persuade a court that you are pursuing a criminal lifestyle, you can have your cash stash taken away for safe keeping (Proceeds of Crime Act 2002). I guess that could be seen as oppressive but it probably depends on your worldview.

 

[Agnes_Cali]

When you all come to the Lake District without cash...don't bank on getting a chinese Takeaway!

I suspect it might be an issue in other parts of UK. I encountered it in Dorset.

I guess, it's similar to hand car wash businesses, which are mostly cash, unless it's a bit bigger company with more expensive services and detailing.

 

[Velma's Dad]

I don't often post, usually keep my head down, but feel compelled this time.
I own a business and am happy to accept cash or card payment, cash payments are usually less than £50.00 so not money laundering amounts.
My business bank charges almost 1% to pay cash in, so I pay myself partly in cash to remove it from my business, my personal bank now limits the amount I can pay in annually to £20,000.00.
I resent the implication that I am a crook! I pay VAT and income tax and national insurance, why would anybody volunteer to pay the bank almost 1%?
One customer laughingly told me he never uses cash now, I pointed out that the banks do charge for the use of cards, he replied that he did not pay, it was me the retailer, when I replied, did he not think I had put the price up to cover this, he looked shocked!
I shall now wait to be attacked and told what an idiot I am!

No of course no-one would say you're an idiot, or a crook. If you're not attempting to evade tax or otherwise commit crime, you're pefectly entitled to run your business however you want.

At the same time it would be spectacularly naive to assume that a great proportion of the businesses that choose actively to take cash are doing it for the same legitimate reasons as you. I'm sure we've all been asked for cash by tradespeople, for a "discount" that happens to be similar to the VAT amount that would otherwise be chargeable. The Institute for Economic Affairs estimated the loss to us, UK taxpayers, by cash-in-hand tax evasion as being many billions a year.

 

[Arnoob]

I allways have some cash on me, enough to full my tank (since somebody in Germany did not accept cards after filling up with 60 litres) and I do have coins for shower, electricty, water etc. I prefer plastic but better safe than sorry. On our local market some sellers prefer cash because of the charges the banks take.