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The trespass trap

Amarillo

Amarillo

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Lay-bys are part of the highway. If a group of travellers set up camp in lay-by one aspect of this trespass (their word) law is that it is intended to allow the police to move them on and confiscate their vehicles immediately. Everyone else caught up in it is collateral damage.
Without your giving specifics, I am really struggling to understand how you draw the conclusions you draw. From everything I have read it seems that a warning needs to be given before the matter become criminal trespass. If the proposals are accepted, it would be the failure to heed that warning that turns the civil trespass into a criminal act and actionable by the police.
 
L

Lightning

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Without your giving specifics, I am really struggling to understand how you draw the conclusions you draw. From everything I have read it seems that a warning needs to be given before the matter become criminal trespass. If the proposals are accepted, it would be the failure to heed that warning that turns the civil trespass into a criminal act and actionable by the police.
It’s from this question in the consultation. If the consultation concludes that no warning is required, then no warning needs to be given:
Q3: To what extent do you agree or disagree that the landowner or representatives of the landowner should take reasonable steps to ask persons occupying their land to remove themselves and their possessions before occupation of the land can be considered a criminal offence?
Strongly agree / Agree / Neither agree or disagree / Disagree / Strongly disagree Please explain your answer
 
L

Lightning

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From the article:


The consultation is everything such exercises are not supposed to be. It is confusing and heavily slanted. It is pitched in such a way that, however you might answer the questions, you are forced to agree with a profoundly illiberal idea.
For example, the first question asks: “To what extent do you agree or disagree that knowingly entering land without the landowner’s permission should only be made a criminal offence if it is for the purpose of residing on it?”It’s a perfect trap. If you agree, you consent to the curtailment of the traditional rights and lives of Roma and Travellers. If you disagree, you consent to the criminalisation of something much wider, which, throughout English history has been a civil matter: trespass on land.
 
Velma's Dad

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We need to be clear that this is a consultation and although various options are mentioned in the questions and other text, it isn't proposing one specific package.

I'd be very surprised if they ended up going for an approach in which the police can summarily and without notice seize vehicles/possessions, although anything's possible. But they might give the police that power, so that they can give a verbal warning to move on and if that's not complied with they can go back the same day and forcibly evict/confiscate without getting a court order.

I'm not saying I'd personally be happy with any of this, by the way.
 
L

Lightning

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We need to be clear that this is a consultation and although various options are mentioned in the questions and other text, it isn't proposing one specific package.

I'd be very surprised if they ended up going for an approach in which the police can summarily and without notice seize vehicles/possessions, although anything's possible. But they might give the police that power, so that they can give a verbal warning to move on and if that's not complied with they can go back the same day and forcibly evict/confiscate without getting a court order.

I'm not saying I'd personally be happy with any of this, by the way.
I hope you respond to the consultation accordingly!
 
MattBW

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From the article:


The consultation is everything such exercises are not supposed to be. It is confusing and heavily slanted. It is pitched in such a way that, however you might answer the questions, you are forced to agree with a profoundly illiberal idea.
For example, the first question asks: “To what extent do you agree or disagree that knowingly entering land without the landowner’s permission should only be made a criminal offence if it is for the purpose of residing on it?”It’s a perfect trap. If you agree, you consent to the curtailment of the traditional rights and lives of Roma and Travellers. If you disagree, you consent to the criminalisation of something much wider, which, throughout English history has been a civil matter: trespass on land.
Welcome to the world of consultations lol. I used to work on Streetworks.NRSWA based consultations a few years ago and they are often designed by committee, sometimes have a political agenda behind them and occasionally felt structured to be a foregone conclusion (or just a nod to the "consultation" process rather). However they generally had those ambiguities or traps pointed out and challenged I am glad to say.

They would also include the harshest options to allow for a degree of slip back.
 
T

Tandt

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I am sure it is designed to be used when necessary to give those suffering from travellers just taking over their land. Not many would bother with 1 or 2 nights as by the time the law kicks in the problem has gone!
 
Jodalo

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I am sure it is designed to be used when necessary to give those suffering from travellers just taking over their land. Not many would bother with 1 or 2 nights as by the time the law kicks in the problem has gone!
Absolutely agree. As I understand it from what I have read, the Police are not supportive of these proposals. There is no way practically they would have the resources to deal with confiscating/removing caravans/campervan/motorhomes etc. from lay-bys, car parks etc unless it was absolutely the last resort. They are barely able to attend burglaries and other serious incidents. I don’t believe these proposals will make any difference to users of this forum.
 
Deskman

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Absolutely agree. As I understand it from what I have read, the Police are not supportive of these proposals.
The problem with legislation that is very restrictive and open for interpretation, is that it is possible to use it on a single campervan somewhere in the wild. It is exactly the kind of agreement with your boss you won't sign - especially when he says: we will never use that rule, just sign here, and afterwards discovering you've thereby abandoned your rights.

(disclaimer: I'm Dutch, so native Dunglish)
 
L

Lightning

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I am sure it is designed to be used when necessary to give those suffering from travellers just taking over their land. Not many would bother with 1 or 2 nights as by the time the law kicks in the problem has gone!
The law kicks in immediately as it stars ‘for any period of time’.

I can also envisage this law being used by councils to discourage motorhomes parking overnight in popular areas. They will no longer need to introduce bans, they will simply enforce this law.

I can also envisage it being used by councils to purge homeless from sight.

What the government should be doing is providing sufficient sites for travellers to stay at, rather than criminalising then.

Camping outside a campsite will risk a criminal conviction, regardless of how busy the police are.
 
Jodalo

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The problem with legislation that is very restrictive and open for interpretation, is that it is possible to use it on a single campervan somewhere in the wild. It is exactly the kind of agreement with your boss you won't sign - especially when he says: we will never use that rule, just sign here, and afterwards discovering you've thereby abandoned your rights.

(disclaimer: I'm Dutch, so native Dunglish)
I understand what you are saying, fortunately the law has not been passed yet. If and when it does I believe the Police have ‘bigger fish to fry’ unless a last resort. By the way your Dunglish appears fluent!
 
L

Long tall John

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Any law students out there cut and paste this thread cos it's nearly a perfect example of the nuances to a law! Discuss!
 
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