California Club Meet Updated Information: Looe Meet - Oct 2020

[flying banana]

Funny can't recall you being very hot on the law / guidelines and their aim - when it came to "no unnecessary travel" during the initial lock-down period ...

I noticed that

 

[Amarillo]

Funny can't recall you being very hot on the law / guidelines and their aim - when it came to "no unnecessary travel" during the initial lock-down period ...

The law was very clear:
" During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse."
A non-exhaustive list of 13 reasonable excuses was also given in the legislation.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

The aim of the legislation was made very clear by Matt Hancock, the person who signed the legislation into law: The reason for the lockdown is to "not come into close contact with other people."

BBC One - Question Time, 2020, 02/04/2020

Fiona Bruce presents an hour of topical debate with guests including Matt Hancock.

www.bbc.co.uk

Time 54:30

My contact free collection of chickens was a reasonable excuse for me to leave the place where I was living.

"No unnecessary travel" was never anything other than advice probably spouted by people who had not read the text of the legislation.

Similarly, the current law is very clear:

(1) During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering which consists of more than six people unless—​

(a)all the people in the gathering are from the same household, or are members of two households which are linked households in relation to each other,​

(b)the gathering is one to which paragraph (2) or (2A) applies and the person concerned participates in the gathering alone or as a member of a qualifying group, or​

(c)paragraph (3) applies.​

(2) This paragraph applies to a gathering if it takes place on or at premises, other than a private dwelling, which are—​

(a)operated by a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution or a public body, or​

(b)part of premises used for the operation of a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution or a public body.​

​

(2A) This paragraph applies to a gathering if it takes place in a public outdoor space which does not fall within paragraph (2)(a) or (b) and—​

(a)the gathering has been organised by a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution, a public body, or a political body, and​

(b)the gathering organiser complies with paragraph (5G).​

​

(2B) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(b)—​

(a)“qualifying group”, in relation to a gathering, means a group of persons who are participating in that gathering and which—​

(i)consists of no more than six persons, or​

(ii)consists of only persons who are members of the same household, or who are members of two households which are linked households in relation to each other;​

(b)a person participates in a gathering as a member of a qualifying group only if they are part of a qualifying group and, whilst participating in the gathering, they do not—​

(i)become a member of any other group of persons participating in the gathering (whether or not that group is a “qualifying group”), or​

(ii)otherwise mingle with any person who is participating in the gathering but is not a member of the same qualifying group as them.”;​

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2020

These Regulations amend the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) Regulations 2020, so that people may not participate in social gatherings, in any place, in groups of more than 6, unless they are members of the same household, two linked households, or exceptions apply.

www.legislation.gov.uk

From a natural reading, I cannot see that splitting a larger gathering into several smaller gatherings on the same campsite would turn a large unlawful gathering into several smaller lawful gatherings. Neither do I see anything in the legislation about 1+ metres or 2 metres. As far as I can tell a gathering is an organised coming together of people, in this case, on one campsite. So two separately organised groups of less than six but totalling more than six would be lawful, but two simultaneously organised groups of less than six but totalling more than six would be unlawful. But I'll be relieved if someone can show me to be wrong on this final point.

 

[kp64zl]

I've been following the recent part of this thread with interest. I can see validity in both sides of the argument but I would propose that it is not my (or other members) opinion that matters here...

My question: What would an outsider think -- seeing a rally field full of VW Californias ? What would an average policeman think? What would need to be proved in a court of law and how confident would the organisers / campsite owner be to win their case???

Surely that's the test that needs to be applied here. Not what we as a community believe or want to believe.

 

[Loz]

I think you need to define a gathering and how it applies to a campsite

 

[Scoobz1]

The law was very clear:
" During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse."
A non-exhaustive list of 13 reasonable excuses was also given in the legislation.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020

These Regulations require the closure of businesses selling food or drink for consumption on the premises, and businesses listed in Part 2 of Schedule 2, to protect against the risks to public health arising from coronavirus, except for limited permitted uses. Restrictions are imposed on...

www.legislation.gov.uk

The aim of the legislation was made very clear by Matt Hancock, the person who signed the legislation into law: The reason for the lockdown is to "not come into close contact with other people."

BBC One - Question Time, 2020, 02/04/2020

Fiona Bruce presents an hour of topical debate with guests including Matt Hancock.

www.bbc.co.uk

Time 54:30

My contact free collection of chickens was a reasonable excuse for me to leave the place where I was living.

"No unnecessary travel" was never anything other than advice probably spouted by people who had not read the text of the legislation.

Similarly, the current law is very clear:

(1) During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering which consists of more than six people unless—​

(a)all the people in the gathering are from the same household, or are members of two households which are linked households in relation to each other,​

(b)the gathering is one to which paragraph (2) or (2A) applies and the person concerned participates in the gathering alone or as a member of a qualifying group, or​

(c)paragraph (3) applies.​

(2) This paragraph applies to a gathering if it takes place on or at premises, other than a private dwelling, which are—​

(a)operated by a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution or a public body, or​

(b)part of premises used for the operation of a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution or a public body.​

​

(2A) This paragraph applies to a gathering if it takes place in a public outdoor space which does not fall within paragraph (2)(a) or (b) and—​

(a)the gathering has been organised by a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution, a public body, or a political body, and​

(b)the gathering organiser complies with paragraph (5G).​

​

(2B) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(b)—​

(a)“qualifying group”, in relation to a gathering, means a group of persons who are participating in that gathering and which—​

(i)consists of no more than six persons, or​

(ii)consists of only persons who are members of the same household, or who are members of two households which are linked households in relation to each other;​

(b)a person participates in a gathering as a member of a qualifying group only if they are part of a qualifying group and, whilst participating in the gathering, they do not—​

(i)become a member of any other group of persons participating in the gathering (whether or not that group is a “qualifying group”), or​

(ii)otherwise mingle with any person who is participating in the gathering but is not a member of the same qualifying group as them.”;​

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2020

These Regulations amend the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) Regulations 2020, so that people may not participate in social gatherings, in any place, in groups of more than 6, unless they are members of the same household, two linked households, or exceptions apply.

www.legislation.gov.uk

From a natural reading, I cannot see that splitting a larger gathering into several smaller gatherings on the same campsite would turn a large unlawful gathering into several smaller lawful gatherings. Neither do I see anything in the legislation about 1+ metres or 2 metres. As far as I can tell a gathering is an organised coming together of people, in this case, on one campsite. So two separately organised groups of less than six but totalling more than six would be lawful, but two simultaneously organised groups of less than six but totalling more than six would be unlawful. But I'll be relieved if someone can show me to be wrong on this final point.

Nonsense you new what the aim was - simple no unnecessary travel - and you choose to ignore it and do many miles for chickens and exercise - despite a park on your door step because it didn't meet your preferences ....

Of course the Government relaxed things and clouded the issue somewhat later, but you still the principle was still clear to most people... Here you seem to be keen to apply a strict interpretation , yet on the other you were looking for every possible loop hole possible - even in the very early days - when the police and local authorities were enforcing very strict interpretations

 

[kp64zl]

or is the real question "can we get away with it?"

A common theme during the pandemic both on this forum and in the wider community

& of course this is a public forum so wouldn't take too long for this whole thread to be found by an external party and used as evidence (one way or another).

 

[Duncan]

We are a family of 5 so am I right in thinking that if I ask both nan and grandad to come to this meet I can get around us not being able to see both of them?

 

[Amarillo]

Nonsense you new what the aim was - simple no unnecessary travel - and you choose to ignore it and do many miles for chickens and exercise - despite a park on your door step because it didn't meet your preferences ....

How silly of me...

I must have misread the legislation which *must* have said, “no person may undertake unnecessary travel”.

How stupid of me....

And there was I all along believing the restrictions were in place to prevent households coming into contact with one another! What on earth would be the purpose of that! Households could mingle as much as they pleased so long as they didn’t travel and pick up the virus by a solo trip in the car.

 

[flying banana]

Amarillo give it a rest for fks sake. Go out on your bike made of dandelions or something.you must be really bored. All I want to know is. Is it on.....or not. If it's on I'm going,if not I'm off to the lakes.

 

[Mr T]

 

[Scott and Linda]

Booked and really hope it all goes ahead,C19 infections rate here in Devon and Cornwall low.Look forward to meeting Cali Club member,groups of less that 6 of course! Lulu thank you for organising this .We are trying the site out this weekend only 50 miles from us in Devon ! Our Cali in the showroom before delivery.Will post some pictures from the site over the weekend and update our Cali picture!

 

[Lulu]

The meet is going ahead and I am finalising attendees and payment with the site today.

They have fully prepared the site to follow the COVID guidelines and have put in place additional clearning routines. They have had a couple of rallies there this month and have not had a problem.

Each member will be booked in individually and it is up to people themselves to follow the Rule of Six regulations and observe social distancing and wearing facemasks when appropriate.

 

[keith.wb]

Many thanks, looking forward to meeting up with you all albeit in groups of 6, socially distanced and with the requisite face mask


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jabberwocky]

Many thanks, looking forward to meeting up with you all albeit in groups of 6, socially distanced and with the requisite face mask

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Keith, what Cali do you have? Your details says "Just browsing".

 

[Jabberwocky]

Booked and really hope it all goes ahead,C19 infections rate here in Devon and Cornwall low.Look forward to meeting Cali Club member,groups of less that 6 of course! Lulu thank you for organising this .We are trying the site out this weekend only 50 miles from us in Devon ! Our Cali in the showroom before delivery.Will post some pictures from the site over the weekend and update our Cali picture!

Photos.........

 

[Scott and Linda]

Very good site, well run, visited last weekend.Very impressed with Covid proofing, very clean facilities which are fogged with special chemicals late at night every day. Looking forward to meeting members and learning much more about our Cali. Thank you Lynne for getting this together and see you all next week.

 

[keith.wb]

Hi Keith, what Cali do you have? Your details says "Just browsing".

Have an MB Marco Polo.
Met Lynne Peglar last year at Clifton Hampden c/s and invited me to come along given the California and MP are similar and that the club ‘tolerates’ us wannabes.
Have always camped in a small tent until I faced a mutiny from my wife.
Had the van for about a couple of years although it is a 2010 and am climbing a steep learning curve living on 4 wheels


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jabberwocky]

Have an MB Marco Polo.
Met Lynne Peglar last year at Clifton Hampden c/s and invited me to come along given the California and MP are similar and that the club ‘tolerates’ us wannabes.
Have always camped in a small tent until I faced a mutiny from my wife.
Had the van for about a couple of years although it is a 2010 and am climbing a steep learning curve living on 4 wheels


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Perfect, great! As far as I am concerned MP owners are always welcome at club meets.
Looking forwards to meeting many MP owners as we did in Dorset last year.
"See you there" as they say.

 

[keith.wb]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GillianC]

This is great news @Lulu . Thank you so much - I am really looking forward to it.
Not long now....

 

[JudeT]

Thanks that's great news & really looking forward to it

 

[vwsween]

Similarly, the current law is very clear:

(1) During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering which consists of more than six people unless—​

(a)all the people in the gathering are from the same household, or are members of two households which are linked households in relation to each other,​

(b)the gathering is one to which paragraph (2) or (2A) applies and the person concerned participates in the gathering alone or as a member of a qualifying group, or​

(c)paragraph (3) applies.​

(2) This paragraph applies to a gathering if it takes place on or at premises, other than a private dwelling, which are—​

(a)operated by a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution or a public body, or​

(b)part of premises used for the operation of a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution or a public body.​

​

(2A) This paragraph applies to a gathering if it takes place in a public outdoor space which does not fall within paragraph (2)(a) or (b) and—​

(a)the gathering has been organised by a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution, a public body, or a political body, and​

(b)the gathering organiser complies with paragraph (5G).​

​

(2B) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(b)—​

(a)“qualifying group”, in relation to a gathering, means a group of persons who are participating in that gathering and which—​

(i)consists of no more than six persons, or​

(ii)consists of only persons who are members of the same household, or who are members of two households which are linked households in relation to each other;​

(b)a person participates in a gathering as a member of a qualifying group only if they are part of a qualifying group and, whilst participating in the gathering, they do not—​

(i)become a member of any other group of persons participating in the gathering (whether or not that group is a “qualifying group”), or​

(ii)otherwise mingle with any person who is participating in the gathering but is not a member of the same qualifying group as them.”;​

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 2020

These Regulations amend the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (No. 2) (England) Regulations 2020, so that people may not participate in social gatherings, in any place, in groups of more than 6, unless they are members of the same household, two linked households, or exceptions apply.

www.legislation.gov.uk

This is the legislation posted up earlier. It does not define "gathering" but I doubt anyone can claim a large number of people attending a club promoted event presumably on their own rally field is not a gathering. There is no problem with a large number of people provided they are made up of a number of qualifying groups (as defined) because is can be claimed that it is organised by a business, the site owners. However, the problem arises from the point that no mingling is allowed other than with people who are in your own qualifying group. Although there is no definition of "mingle" it may be hard to claim there is no mingling given the purpose of the gathering is to meet and chat to like minded people.
But of course you and the site may well get away with it, assuming nobody notices and makes a complaint.

 

[Scott and Linda]

We " mingled" with other campers last weekend at the site. We all meet and talk to others in any site from all walks of life and other parts of the country, that is part of the enjoyment . If we all follow the site rules, social distance open air, rule of 6 etc what is the problem.Coomon sense applies. If everyone met in the bar for a session, quiz different story and that is not happening.

 

[vwsween]

We " mingled" with other campers last weekend at the site. We all meet and talk to others in any site from all walks of life and other parts of the country, that is part of the enjoyment . If we all follow the site rules, social distance open air, rule of 6 etc what is the problem.Coomon sense applies. If everyone met in the bar for a session, quiz different story and that is not happening.

I would think what you say makes reasonable sense in the absence of any rules from the government. However I was pointing out that attending a gathering and mingling with members of other qualifying groups of up to 6 is not allowed according to the rules - its there if you wish to read them. You could also google what various politicians have thought mingling means.
Understandably people are tempted to bend the rules or justify ignoring them to do something they really want and I imaging the campsite and many wishing to attend feel comfortable with the arrangements in place irrespective of the rules.

 

[Billy]

Caravan and MH Club appear to have cancelled all their rallies now until 2021, its a very grey area I guess as its encouraging mingling?