VW confirms plans for ID California electric camper van

[Ch1pbutty]

Heat pumps instead of Gas/Oil heating is on the GOV list.
If not on a new build I'd worry (future cost) as it looks like a must be done item this decade.

One particular development is 3500 homes, with no requirement for heatpumps / solar despite the issue being highlighted many times. Would guess it’s the same for similar developments across the UK.

The developers fluff:

//
Creating an environmentally sustainable community touches on every aspect of the project. Key themes include reducing carbon in the construction of new homes, making them more thermally efficient and using electricity and other renewable energy sources such as solar panels and heat pumps. Reducing carbon from private car use includes supporting the transition to electric vehicles, but more fundamentally it’s about reducing peoples’ need to travel by car – by providing accessible neighbourhood centres and other facilities within walking distance of home and by making cycling and public transport more attractive ways to get around.

We are also using landscape and other natural design features to protect the community from the effects of climate change. For example, using trees and shrubs to provide shade and cooling during summer heat waves, or planting street trees to create a more comfortable environment for walking when it’s hot. Our plans also include a site-wide Sustainable Urban Drainage system to retain water after heavy rainfall and carefully manage its flow and discharge from the site to avoid downstream flooding.
//

 

[Ch1pbutty]

In order for Heat Pumps to work well in heating a building you also need super efficient insulation of walls and windows to keep the heat in. The last thing you want is good ventilation as is often quoted with dealing with the Covid 19 Pandemic. So besides a heat pump extracting heat from the outside air/ground you also need a heat exchanger to extract heat from vented air to heat up outside air to provide adequate ventilation within your hermetically sealed home of the future.
It just has not been thought through.

Agree 100%

The house that the in-laws are moving from is a 4 year old townhouse with an efficient gas boiler, super insulated house but it’s just too hot.

Even in the winter it can be 21degrees C in the downstairs hallway with the heating turned off. Top floor bedroom is like a sauna so you have to have the windows open to avoid waking up feeling stuffy.

 

[WelshGas]

Agree 100%

The house that the in-laws are moving from is a 4 year old townhouse with an efficient gas boiler, super insulated house but it’s just too hot.

Even in the winter it can be 21degrees C in the downstairs hallway with the heating turned off. Top floor bedroom is like a sauna so you have to have the windows open to avoid waking up feeling stuffy.

My son has the same problem in his new build. He is toying with the idea of a cooling system as the present heat exchanger is a very efficient passive system. The heating is rarely on.

 

[WelshGas]

OWNING A TESLA IN WINTER | OWNING A TESLA IN WINTER | By Rich Rebuilds | Facebook

OWNING A TESLA IN WINTER

fb.watch

 

[flying banana]

EV's will be the new diesel scandal in years to come. with electricity prices to double next year and go up another 5 or 6 times todays cost to raise revenue for the government, the price of running not just a car goes up, but everything electric in your house. lawn mowers, washers, heating etc etc. the bills of the future look bleak costing thousands of pounds a year and the virtue signalling EV lot are driving up this cost. no one ever talks about charging for terraced housing or flats. remote houses have to pay tens of thousands of pounds to upgrade cabling to their property to install charging points.not everyone has a nice middle class drive way in the city to charge their milk floats on.
mentioned earlier about campsite charging, the current hook ups are no good, all sites would need to invest substantial amounts of cash to upgrade, the remote sites will need tens of thousands of pounds to get a more robust cable connected to the grid and buried. these sites will either scrap hook up or close.
whats going to happen to motorhomes, caravans, tractors, combine harvesters, earth movers, shipping, lorries, generators and trains ? (electrifying the rails between sheffield and manchester was scrapped due to cost), how is the heating going to work ? someone earlier said the heating will be electric , so that's wild camping instantly out the window then.
are multi stories going to have a charge point for each car park space ? imagine the cost of this, imagine the cost of parking in future to pay for it. is tesco going to have a charge point in every car park spot or just a couple like now and you have to fight for it. or will they invest and put their prices up to pay for it.
how much will an E cali cost ? 100k? 120k? how long will the battery last,how much is a new one ?
the guy who saved £80 earlier charging up rather than using diesel thinks this is the way forward, i think its a massive mistake and as with most massive government projects it is doomed to failure at huge cost to the working man.
no one is asking these questions in parliament and it worries me. as for poisoning the planet with diesel do some research on the neodynium mines in china, the cobalt mines in the congo. out of sight out of mind though eh.
i don't know the answers to these questions, but the fact no one asks these questions is very odd.
i think i'll buy one of the last diesels and hope it sees me out.

 

[danvan]

EV's will be the new diesel scandal in years to come. with electricity prices to double next year and go up another 5 or 6 times todays cost to raise revenue for the government, the price of running not just a car goes up, but everything electric in your house. lawn mowers, washers, heating etc etc. the bills of the future look bleak costing thousands of pounds a year and the virtue signalling EV lot are driving up this cost. no one ever talks about charging for terraced housing or flats. remote houses have to pay tens of thousands of pounds to upgrade cabling to their property to install charging points.not everyone has a nice middle class drive way in the city to charge their milk floats on.
mentioned earlier about campsite charging, the current hook ups are no good, all sites would need to invest substantial amounts of cash to upgrade, the remote sites will need tens of thousands of pounds to get a more robust cable connected to the grid and buried. these sites will either scrap hook up or close.
whats going to happen to motorhomes, caravans, tractors, combine harvesters, earth movers, shipping, lorries, generators and trains ? (electrifying the rails between sheffield and manchester was scrapped due to cost), how is the heating going to work ? someone earlier said the heating will be electric , so that's wild camping instantly out the window then.
are multi stories going to have a charge point for each car park space ? imagine the cost of this, imagine the cost of parking in future to pay for it. is tesco going to have a charge point in every car park spot or just a couple like now and you have to fight for it. or will they invest and put their prices up to pay for it.
how much will an E cali cost ? 100k? 120k? how long will the battery last,how much is a new one ?
the guy who saved £80 earlier charging up rather than using diesel thinks this is the way forward, i think its a massive mistake and as with most massive government projects it is doomed to failure at huge cost to the working man.
no one is asking these questions in parliament and it worries me. as for poisoning the planet with diesel do some research on the neodynium mines in china, the cobalt mines in the congo. out of sight out of mind though eh.
i don't know the answers to these questions, but the fact no one asks these questions is very odd.
i think i'll buy one of the last diesels and hope it sees me out.

"no one ever talks about charging for terraced housing" - happy to talk a bit about this, since I live in one and have an electric car. We use only public chargers to charge ours. Our local Shell garage has two fast 50kW chargers, there are a number of 7kW slow chargers in local streets and some lamp posts have 4.3kW chargers. It works fine, I have to charge more often than I'd buy fuel, but that's OK, I knew that before I bought it. When we're out and about (outside of London) there are chargers all over the place (National Trust, supermarkets, filling stations, lands end!), but I rarely need to use them as 200 miles gets me as far as I'd need to go in a day. It takes planning for anything longer than 200 miles, but the fast charging network is expending quickly and 15 mins a time isn't much of an inconvenience (it takes longer than that to get the kids through a motorway service station's toilets).
We tend to use the Cali for very long day trips though, where stopping every 1.5 hours for 15 mins to charge would become an issue. I'm sure things will improve.

 

[WelshGas]

"no one ever talks about charging for terraced housing" - happy to talk a bit about this, since I live in one and have an electric car. We use only public chargers to charge ours. Our local Shell garage has two fast 50kW chargers, there are a number of 7kW slow chargers in local streets and some lamp posts have 4.3kW chargers. It works fine, I have to charge more often than I'd buy fuel, but that's OK, I knew that before I bought it. When we're out and about (outside of London) there are chargers all over the place (National Trust, supermarkets, filling stations, lands end!), but I rarely need to use them as 200 miles gets me as far as I'd need to go in a day. It takes planning for anything longer than 200 miles, but the fast charging network is expending quickly and 15 mins a time isn't much of an inconvenience (it takes longer than that to get the kids through a motorway service station's toilets).
We tend to use the Cali for very long day trips though, where stopping every 1.5 hours for 15 mins to charge would become an issue. I'm sure things will improve.

How many of your neighbours have EVs?

 

[flying banana]

"no one ever talks about charging for terraced housing" - happy to talk a bit about this, since I live in one and have an electric car. We use only public chargers to charge ours. Our local Shell garage has two fast 50kW chargers, there are a number of 7kW slow chargers in local streets and some lamp posts have 4.3kW chargers. It works fine, I have to charge more often than I'd buy fuel, but that's OK, I knew that before I bought it. When we're out and about (outside of London) there are chargers all over the place (National Trust, supermarkets, filling stations, lands end!), but I rarely need to use them as 200 miles gets me as far as I'd need to go in a day. It takes planning for anything longer than 200 miles, but the fast charging network is expending quickly and 15 mins a time isn't much of an inconvenience (it takes longer than that to get the kids through a motorway service station's toilets).
We tend to use the Cali for very long day trips though, where stopping every 1.5 hours for 15 mins to charge would become an issue. I'm sure things will improve.

i meant 'no one' as no one in government, no ones talking about the solutions. also i'm sure you will agree that alot of infrastructure up north is always way behind south by decades . i just can't see the dales or cairngorms ever having this rapid charging network that you benefit from. we can't even get a phone signal to most of these places, i live in a big town in south yorkshire, high speed broadband anyone ? what's that ? i'm still downloading films overnight here. it's ridiculous how people think all this will be fixed by 2030

 

[danvan]

How many of your neighbours have EVs?

Four.

 

[danvan]

i meant 'no one' as no one in government, no ones talking about the solutions. also i'm sure you will agree that alot of infrastructure up north is always way behind south by decades . i just can't see the dales or cairngorms ever having this rapid charging network that you benefit from. we can't even get a phone signal to most of these places, i live in a big town in south yorkshire, high speed broadband anyone ? what's that ? i'm still downloading films overnight here. it's ridiculous how people think all this will be fixed by 2030

Not everyone will need access to a charger by 2030, a large number will still be running existing petrol and diesel cars. Maybe by 2040 it'll need sorting, which is a long time.

I'm not advocating the move to electric, but that's where we're heading, so it'll either get sorted, we'll be walking everywhere or driving really old petrol/diesel cars.

 

[66tim99]

Not everyone will need access to a charger by 2030, a large number will still be running existing petrol and diesel cars. Maybe by 2040 it'll need sorting, which is a long time.

I'm not advocating the move to electric, but that's where we're heading, so it'll either get sorted, we'll be walking everywhere or driving really old petrol/diesel cars.

I still have hope for hydrogen

 

[Ch1pbutty]

EV's will be the new diesel scandal in years to come. with electricity prices to double next year and go up another 5 or 6 times todays cost to raise revenue for the government, the price of running not just a car goes up, but everything electric in your house. lawn mowers, washers, heating etc etc. the bills of the future look bleak costing thousands of pounds a year and the virtue signalling EV lot are driving up this cost. no one ever talks about charging for terraced housing or flats. remote houses have to pay tens of thousands of pounds to upgrade cabling to their property to install charging points.not everyone has a nice middle class drive way in the city to charge their milk floats on.
mentioned earlier about campsite charging, the current hook ups are no good, all sites would need to invest substantial amounts of cash to upgrade, the remote sites will need tens of thousands of pounds to get a more robust cable connected to the grid and buried. these sites will either scrap hook up or close.
whats going to happen to motorhomes, caravans, tractors, combine harvesters, earth movers, shipping, lorries, generators and trains ? (electrifying the rails between sheffield and manchester was scrapped due to cost), how is the heating going to work ? someone earlier said the heating will be electric , so that's wild camping instantly out the window then.
are multi stories going to have a charge point for each car park space ? imagine the cost of this, imagine the cost of parking in future to pay for it. is tesco going to have a charge point in every car park spot or just a couple like now and you have to fight for it. or will they invest and put their prices up to pay for it.
how much will an E cali cost ? 100k? 120k? how long will the battery last,how much is a new one ?
the guy who saved £80 earlier charging up rather than using diesel thinks this is the way forward, i think its a massive mistake and as with most massive government projects it is doomed to failure at huge cost to the working man.
no one is asking these questions in parliament and it worries me. as for poisoning the planet with diesel do some research on the neodynium mines in china, the cobalt mines in the congo. out of sight out of mind though eh.
i don't know the answers to these questions, but the fact no one asks these questions is very odd.
i think i'll buy one of the last diesels and hope it sees me out.

I was guy who 'saved' £80, post was more to demonstrate how easy it was to fill up; We also own a 10 year old Diesel Cali, so EV lease made sense to us, versus say buying a new Cali which would have only gained us LED headlights, exhaust scrubber & Adblue tank, and a big dip in the bank balance.

People are obsessed with home & campsite charging points. How many people currently have a diesel tank in their house / flat, expect a campsite to have a diesel filling point or fill up with diesel at when in the multistorey NCP? So why is the same expected for EV's? The biggest upgrade some campsites have made is to rip the tiles off shower cubicles, install plastic cubicles & and put a electric hand dryer in!...there is no way that they will install uprated EV charge ports.

Of course EV charging cost will increase as more people buy EV's. Hence also the reason why fast chargers are likely be added at rapid pace as it will be the easiest way for the government to capture the lost tax revenue.

 

[danvan]

I was guy who 'saved' £80, post was more to demonstrate how easy it was to fill up; We also own a 10 year old Diesel Cali, so EV lease made sense to us, versus say buying a new Cali which would have only gained us LED headlights, exhaust scrubber & Adblue tank, and a big dip in the bank balance.

People are obsessed with home & campsite charging points. How many people currently have a diesel tank in their house / flat, expect a campsite to have a diesel filling point or fill up with diesel at when in the multistorey NCP? So why is the same expected for EV's? The biggest upgrade some campsites have made is to rip the tiles off shower cubicles, install plastic cubicles & and put a electric hand dryer in!...there is no way that they will install uprated EV charge ports.

Of course EV charging cost will increase as more people buy EV's. Hence also the reason why fast chargers are likely be added at rapid pace as it will be the easiest way for the government to capture the lost tax revenue.

ULEZ made me change cars. 4x journeys collecting kids from various clubs would cost £50 per week (£220 a month to run a 10 year old car made no sense). So with the saving on road tax (£360) and the saving on a parking permit (£400) I was able to justify the lease on an EV. Plus it costs about 25% of the old diesel to charge (albeit, I accept that cost may go up). Source, the local charger provider, have already put up costs once in the 10 months I've owned the car.

 

[GollyOlly]

My main concern for an electric camper is that we wont see it till towards the end of the decade.

Not only that, but battery management system is key. VW EV batteries have decreased in power 8% per year while Tesla decreases maybe 1-2% per year. Also, range dramatically reduces in cold weather for EVs. Something to consider when buying any EV.

 

[WelshGas]

Four.

Wait until 50% + of the neighbourhood have EVs and then come back and tell us how easy and convenient it is using public chargers.

 

[WelshGas]

I was guy who 'saved' £80, post was more to demonstrate how easy it was to fill up; We also own a 10 year old Diesel Cali, so EV lease made sense to us, versus say buying a new Cali which would have only gained us LED headlights, exhaust scrubber & Adblue tank, and a big dip in the bank balance.

People are obsessed with home & campsite charging points. How many people currently have a diesel tank in their house / flat, expect a campsite to have a diesel filling point or fill up with diesel at when in the multistorey NCP? So why is the same expected for EV's? The biggest upgrade some campsites have made is to rip the tiles off shower cubicles, install plastic cubicles & and put a electric hand dryer in!...there is no way that they will install uprated EV charge ports.

Of course EV charging cost will increase as more people buy EV's. Hence also the reason why fast chargers are likely be added at rapid pace as it will be the easiest way for the government to capture the lost tax revenue.

People will expect the same convenience charging as they do refuelling an IC vehicle, or close to it. Seeing as our closest garage has 16 pumps and frequently has queues but manages a throughput of at least 8 vehicles / pump / hr so a Total of 128 vehicles/hr 0700 to 2100 hrs a day and a significant number of customers overnight. My youngest used to work there during student holidays.
So if an EV is going to take 30 mins to charge then we have a bit of a problem.
I look forward to your possible explanation on how EV owners will cope without HomeCharging or Car Park charging in a reasonably convenient manner.

Oh, and the garage site only has car parking room for about 25+/- vehicles.

 

[danvan]

Wait until 50% + of the neighbourhood have EVs and then come back and tell us how easy and convenient it is using public chargers.

They’ll be loads more by then. If there’s money to be made out of chargers, people will build them. Shell have just built an entire “petrol station” in Fulham for EVs. They’ll be under pressure to decarbonise from investors, so will push into things like that.
( And I never said it’s convenient now, it’s a pain. But so is camping in a Cali with 5 of us, and we still do that).

 

[Ch1pbutty]

People will expect the same convenience charging as they do refuelling an IC vehicle, or close to it. Seeing as our closest garage has 16 pumps and frequently has queues but manages a throughput of at least 8 vehicles / pump / hr so a Total of 128 vehicles/hr 0700 to 2100 hrs a day and a significant number of customers overnight. My youngest used to work there during student holidays.
So if an EV is going to take 30 mins to charge then we have a bit of a problem.
I look forward to your possible explanation on how EV owners will cope without HomeCharging or Car Park charging in a reasonably convenient manner.

Oh, and the garage site only has car parking room for about 25+/- vehicles.

Its likely that some of those currently queuing for IC at your garage will have access to a Charge point at home, and just it charge overnight why they are sleeping. Some might be able to charge at work.

If your current garage has to close suddenly and you are low on fuel that is your only option gone (unless you have a can of diesel), then you are stuffed as many of us found out during the fuel crisis.

EV's can give more options for day to day charging. Worst case is a long extension lead into any household 3 pin socket (super slow, but it still works).

Charge stations are easier to set up as the build is far easier than than a diesel / petrol station. One of the charges the Mrs stopped at just outside of Reading was a gravel carpark out in the sticks with a line of Superchargers - it was very strange as obviously used to line of pumps, shop etc etc.

 

[Wildcamper]

Its likely that some of those currently queuing for IC at your garage will have access to a Charge point at home, and just it charge overnight why they are sleeping. Some might be able to charge at work.

If your current garage has to close suddenly and you are low on fuel that is your only option gone (unless you have a can of diesel), then you are stuffed as many of us found out during the fuel crisis.

EV's can give more options for day to day charging. Worst case is a long extension lead into any household 3 pin socket (super slow, but it still works).

Charge stations are easier to set up as the build is far easier than than a diesel / petrol station. One of the charges the Mrs stopped at just outside of Reading was a gravel carpark out in the sticks with a line of Superchargers - it was very strange as obviously used to line of pumps, shop etc et

They’ll be loads more by then. If there’s money to be made out of chargers, people will build them. Shell have just built an entire “petrol station” in Fulham for EVs. They’ll be under pressure to decarbonise from investors, so will push into things like that.
( And I never said it’s convenient now, it’s a pain. But so is camping in a Cali with 5 of us, and we still do that).

According to Worlddata.info
The UK uses 309.2 billion kW.hr of electricity a year, production capability is 318.2 bn kW.hr, imports are 19.7 bn kW.hr and exports are 2.15 bn kW.hr

The proposed increase use of electricity will fail unless there is a huge increase in generating capacity. Also consider that while fast chargers are good for consumers they are bad for efficient use of electricity. Thermodynamics shows that a trickle charge is more efficient than a fast charge as less if the input power is converted into heat. If the race to electrify is not, and it does not appear to be happening, accompanied by increasing generating capacity then the race will be lost. The same is true across Europe and indeed the world.

 

[clarinetbcn]

This is what is driving manufacturers' switch to electric cars, and why it is virtually unstoppable:

Seat avisa que el coche eléctrico puede requerir un 30% menos de plantilla

La negociación del nuevo convenio colectivo de Seat comenzó ayer con un aviso inquietante: la transformación de la compañía hacia el coche eléctrico puede implicar un 30%...

www.lavanguardia.com

Seat warns that the electric car may require 30% less staff

“The transformation to produce electric cars entails a 30% reduction in manufacturing hours compared to a combustion model for the entire automotive industry."

Selling a car which is much cheaper to produce at a premium price over ICE models is a much more powerful motivator for manufacturers than environmental concerns. Elon Musk was the first one to figure this out.

 

[Wildcamper]

This is what is driving manufacturers' switch to electric cars, and why it is virtually unstoppable:

Seat avisa que el coche eléctrico puede requerir un 30% menos de plantilla

La negociación del nuevo convenio colectivo de Seat comenzó ayer con un aviso inquietante: la transformación de la compañía hacia el coche eléctrico puede implicar un 30%...

www.lavanguardia.com

Seat warns that the electric car may require 30% less staff

“The transformation to produce electric cars entails a 30% reduction in manufacturing hours compared to a combustion model for the entire automotive industry."

Selling a car which is much cheaper to produce at a premium price over ICE models is a much more powerful motivator for manufacturers than environmental concerns. Elon Musk was the first one to figure this out.

I can believe this, but where is all the required electricity going to come from? I first started asking this question in the early 1990s at EV conferences. There was no answer, other than waffle, then and the same looks, to me, to be the case now. In the end if there is insufficient electricity being generated then the market will fail.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

According to Worlddata.info
The UK uses 309.2 billion kW.hr of electricity a year, production capability is 318.2 bn kW.hr, imports are 19.7 bn kW.hr and exports are 2.15 bn kW.hr

The proposed increase use of electricity will fail unless there is a huge increase in generating capacity. Also consider that while fast chargers are good for consumers they are bad for efficient use of electricity. Thermodynamics shows that a trickle charge is more efficient than a fast charge as less if the input power is converted into heat. If the race to electrify is not, and it does not appear to be happening, accompanied by increasing generating capacity then the race will be lost. The same is true across Europe and indeed the world.

It’s the ability to be able to store generated energy that makes a big difference, you can then stabilise the peaks in demand and avoid buying energy from other countries at an inflated price.

Power companies are now building battery banks to store energy produced by offshore wind & solar farms. This then becomes instant power when they need it, and the batteries are still being topped up whist the blades are turning / sun shining.

A household can install solar panels to reduce their energy costs. Any surplus energy is sold to National Grid….but if you also install a battery at home then it’s your energy to use as and when required, so you are less reliant on the Energy companies; Obviously it’s a large outlay for an
existing home owner to install so for it to work large scale it ideally needs new housing developments to have it as standard.

Also, In the UK there has been a big push from the Government and grants available for people to reduce the amount of energy that they use by installing smart meters, better home insulation, solar panels, more efficient boilers etc…

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

What’s with all this range anxiety? This Tesla has done billions of miles without recharging

In fact, that happened exactly four years ago this week. Musk strapped his personal cherry red Roadster to the Falcon Heavy. At the helm of the Tesla was a spacesuit-wearing mannequin nicknamed “Starman.”
As of the writing of this article, it’s currently more than 234.5 million miles from Earth. It’s also moving away from us at a speed of 3,234 mph, according to the website whereisroadster.com, which has been diligently tracking the Roadster since its launch.
This is certainly the highest mileage Tesla Roadster in the galaxy. The car has traveled nearly 2 billion miles and completed 2.6 loops around the sun, mostly in a barren, empty vacuum, according to the site.

 

[Wildcamper]

It’s the ability to be able to store generated energy that makes a big difference, you can then stabilise the peaks in demand and avoid buying energy from other countries at an inflated price.

Power companies are now building battery banks to store energy produced by offshore wind & solar farms. This then becomes instant power when they need it, and the batteries are still being topped up whist the blades are turning / sun shining.

A household can install solar panels to reduce their energy costs. Any surplus energy is sold to National Grid….but if you also install a battery at home then it’s your energy to use as and when required, so you are less reliant on the Energy companies; Obviously it’s a large outlay for an
existing home owner to install so for it to work large scale it ideally needs new housing developments to have it as standard.

Also, In the UK there has been a big push from the Government and grants available for people to reduce the amount of energy that they use by installing smart meters, better home insulation, solar panels, more efficient boilers etc…

Batteries have a short life span, at present. The cost of regular replacement will be huge.

Re the housing comment, it will work for some not others.

In our case:
A Smart meter does not fit our distribution panel and it can't be made bigger without a major re-wiring - comment of an installer.

Home insulation can be improved, underway but the house was built in 1830 so the possible improvement is limited.

Solar panels - not allowed by planning.

More efficient boiler - due to be installed.

 

[danvan]

Batteries have a short life span, at present. The cost of regular replacement will be huge.

Re the housing comment, it will work for some not others.

In our case:
A Smart meter does not fit our distribution panel and it can't be made bigger without a major re-wiring - comment of an installer.

Home insulation can be improved, underway but the house was built in 1830 so the possible improvement is limited.

Solar panels - not allowed by planning.

More efficient boiler - due to be installed.

"Batteries have a short life span, at present. The cost of regular replacement will be huge."

I think Tesla reckon their batteries are good for 300,000-500,000 miles (I'm assuming they've done extended testing like most car manufacturers), so that's plenty of life for most people. And around 10% degradation per 100,000 miles. A new battery is of the order of £10k (vs the £7k for a new 180 engine). Engines lose hp and efficiency over time too.