Which electric car to buy?

[Wildcamper]

Another good reason not to purchase an EV.

 

[Calimili]

Another good reason not to purchase an EV.

With virtually every manufacturer aggressively in a race to introduce EV models to secure some market share and not being left out, it is difficult to think prices for EVs will hold

 

[johnyboy]

I think that’s probably true.
However, the rest of the car industry bases their EV pricing on Tesla’s. So anything new released in the last two years now looks expensive…

I also think there is a lot behind the US and German government contributions to purchase that lead them to lower such that more of their cars qualify

 

[Ch1pbutty]

I think that’s probably true.
However, the rest of the car industry bases their EV pricing on Tesla’s. So anything new released in the last two years now looks expensive…

Still off target....Model 3 needs to come down further (£24,423) to meet their original plan:

Tesla Model 3 pitched as an 'affordable' electric car

Tesla unveils its much-anticipated Model 3 electric car saying it will cost $35,000 and have a range of at least 215 miles (346km) per charge.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[kurienp]

it is difficult to think prices for EVs will hold

no way the prices are going to hold ... as the value is in the software ... which you can only by from the manufacturer.

If I was selling you a V6, I can make it hold the price ... maybe by ensuring that I have upgraded from a possible single turbo to a twin turbo or better bearings etc. Now that is value + add.

In an EV, there is nothing I Can do - Zilch! Zero, Nada. The manufacturer controls it all and they set the prices and control the prices.

They charge you for the car + basic software + additional software
When you sell you can only sell the car + basic software.
The new purchaser then has to purchase the additional software from the manufacturer ...

So the manufacturer wins as they have got money for the same piece of software twice and you lost that money on the additional software + depreciation to a piece of metal that you cannot do much to ... other than apply a few coats of polish to and make the exterior shine and then you have the majority of nincompoomps on YT who rave about a car ... without a clue on what car ownership is all about. For most of them, it is like another reuseable, throwaway ball pen.

Usually, the old car + additional software (inflated value) is very close to the new car ... so then why not buy a new car.

In all this, the customer is on the loosing side.

 

[kurienp]

Still off target....Model 3 needs to come down further (£24,423) to meet their original plan:

Tesla Model 3 pitched as an 'affordable' electric car

Tesla unveils its much-anticipated Model 3 electric car saying it will cost $35,000 and have a range of at least 215 miles (346km) per charge.

www.bbc.co.uk

did not Musk also promise something like cars driving themselves many years ago?

 

[Ch1pbutty]

did not Musk also promise something like cars driving themselves many years ago?

Car is set up to do so, but not currently allowed on UK Roads.

 

[kurienp]

Car is set up to do so, but not currently allowed on UK Roads.

No way! have you seen the self driving videos on YouTube? Nowhere close to what self-driving should be. Level 1 or 2 ... nowhere close to full-self-driving ... which would be at least at level 4 or 5.

There is an excellent test done by MKBHD on self driving and it only works half-decently on motorways.

It can be at best described as driving assist. Not FSD. I use driving assist on the motorways all the time ... but the drawbacks are so many ... you are more scared than relaxed when letting it drive ... not sure when it will phantom brake and when it will decide to lunge back into the lane even after you have indicated and it is safe to change lanes. IMO, the poor depth perception may be causing this.

It has very poor depth perception and one of the key reasons for all the phantom braking issues.

One of the items that really pi***s me off.
- move the stalk down once to engage traffic aware cruise.
- move the stalk down twice to engage self-driving

the only way to go back to traffic aware cruise is to either wrestle control back from the steering ... or disengage (move stalk up) and then engage (move stalk down once). This is a bizarre UI. If one click down is traffic aware cruise, that is what it should do each time. Will make for so much more a smoother ride.

 

[Calimili]

no way the prices are going to hold ... as the value is in the software ... which you can only by from the manufacturer.

If I was selling you a V6, I can make it hold the price ... maybe by ensuring that I have upgraded from a possible single turbo to a twin turbo or better bearings etc. Now that is value + add.

In an EV, there is nothing I Can do - Zilch! Zero, Nada. The manufacturer controls it all and they set the prices and control the prices.

They charge you for the car + basic software + additional software
When you sell you can only sell the car + basic software.
The new purchaser then has to purchase the additional software from the manufacturer ...

So the manufacturer wins as they have got money for the same piece of software twice and you lost that money on the additional software + depreciation to a piece of metal that you cannot do much to ... other than apply a few coats of polish to and make the exterior shine and then you have the majority of nincompoomps on YT who rave about a car ... without a clue on what car ownership is all about. For most of them, it is like another reuseable, throwaway ball pen.

Usually, the old car + additional software (inflated value) is very close to the new car ... so then why not buy a new car.

In all this, the customer is on the loosing side.

and after 8 years special software upgrades for forced obsolescence. Then discard the card. But you have saved the planet !!

 

[kurienp]

and after 8 years special software upgrades for forced obsolescence. Then discard the card. But you have saved the planet !!

Nah, just made someone else rich. False economy right now.



Edit - to clarify - all for electric cars. That was go at Tesla for their closed ecosystem

 

[soulstyledevon]

People who say we don’t need EVs don’t live in the real world.
I drive a lot for work and traffic congestion and the shear number of cars sitting pumping out Co2 is absolutely tragic.

The faster we dump cars sitting idle with their engines running the better…!!!

 

[subthree]

On the World Service the other day, apparently all the world's trees absorb 2 billion tonnes of CO2 per year. I thought "wow!". Globally we produce 36 billion tonnes of CO2 per year.

 

[GrannyJen]

People who say we don’t need EVs don’t live in the real world.
I drive a lot for work and traffic congestion and the shear number of cars sitting pumping out Co2 is absolutely tragic.

The faster we dump cars sitting idle with their engines running the better…!!!

It took "us", so-called society, assisted by people such as Rockefeller, 40 years to stop deluding ourselves about the effects on our children of lead in gasoline.

Since I was a child, when traffic jams were uncommon and the private motor car even less common, we have seen an increase of Allergic reactions and abnormal brain development in our children. My own son is one afflicted with the "new" diagnosis of autism.

There may be no link, but one only has to see queues of traffic pumping out products of combustion into still air that people walk along and breathe to think "this can't be good".

 

[soulstyledevon]

@GrannyJen don’t forget the links to Dementia too.

 

[Wildcamper]

'I drove an electric car on a 350-mile trip and the numbers don't add up'

We took to the road for a real world experiment

www.stokesentinel.co.uk

 

[Ch1pbutty]

No way! have you seen the self driving videos on YouTube? Nowhere close to what self-driving should be. Level 1 or 2 ... nowhere close to full-self-driving ... which would be at least at level 4 or 5.

There is an excellent test done by MKBHD on self driving and it only works half-decently on motorways.

It can be at best described as driving assist. Not FSD. I use driving assist on the motorways all the time ... but the drawbacks are so many ... you are more scared than relaxed when letting it drive ... not sure when it will phantom brake and when it will decide to lunge back into the lane even after you have indicated and it is safe to change lanes. IMO, the poor depth perception may be causing this.

It has very poor depth perception and one of the key reasons for all the phantom braking issues.

One of the items that really pi***s me off.
- move the stalk down once to engage traffic aware cruise.
- move the stalk down twice to engage self-driving

the only way to go back to traffic aware cruise is to either wrestle control back from the steering ... or disengage (move stalk up) and then engage (move stalk down once). This is a bizarre UI. If one click down is traffic aware cruise, that is what it should do each time. Will make for so much more a smoother ride.

Tend to use the only use the autopilot on the M25 and motorways. I just blip the throttle or touch the brake if ypu need to switch it off. Then pull the stalk down to switch it back on.

Only small niggle is that it will not allow you to undertake, which is perfectly legal to do on a gantry controlled variable speed road (such as M25), or , average speed limits . Easily overridden by gently pressing the accelerator.

...and of course it won't spot potholes!..and we have alot of them locally at the moment.

 

[kurienp]

@GrannyJen don’t forget the links to Dementia too.

All these years we have polluted the air.

When we started we thought it was all good and maybe were not so aware of the damage it can cause as people in the know "read - Rockefellers etc." may not have informed us ... so that they can make their money.

Then there is plastic - the wonder material ..

We may not have known then, but now we know - we have polluted the waters ..

Now ... to save the air ...

... we know that this nickel cadmium and other chemicals will pollute the ground. So we are ready to pollute the ground ... in order to clean up the air?

Is there a clean solution? - it is always choosing the lesser of the evils.

PS - not blaming anyone/anything. I am also an integral part of this problem ... Everyone seems to be trying ... but then profit seems to be the driving factor in most cases which ... hmmm ...

 

[ArunAlec]

Tend to use the only use the autopilot on the M25 and motorways. I just blip the throttle or touch the brake if ypu need to switch it off. Then pull the stalk down to switch it back on.

Only small niggle is that it will not allow you to undertake, which is perfectly legal to do on a gantry controlled variable speed road (such as M25), or , average speed limits . Easily overridden by gently pressing the accelerator.

...and of course it won't spot potholes!..and we have alot of them locally at the moment.

The West Sussex CC online “Report a Pothole“ works a treat…… you report a pothole, they survey it, send out a team to repair it, then you report it again when the repair breaks up.

 

[kurienp]

Tend to use the only use the autopilot on the M25 and motorways. I just blip the throttle or touch the brake if ypu need to switch it off. Then pull the stalk down to switch it back on.

Only small niggle is that it will not allow you to undertake, which is perfectly legal to do on a gantry controlled variable speed road (such as M25), or , average speed limits . Easily overridden by gently pressing the accelerator.

...and of course it won't spot potholes!..and we have alot of them locally at the moment.

Agree with that. motorways is the best ... but again, in my mind ... if the car cannot do an action, it should be able to smoothly transfer control to the driver.

Smooth driving for me is to get from point a to b with the highest average speed through minimal loss of momentum.

I have regen set to max, so as soon as I hit the brakes or disengage, the vehicle slows down quite quickly and then I have to accelerate and set the adaptive/traffic aware cruise (TACC) on again. Momentum lost.

If I could switch from autopilot to TACC with a single click of the stalk, then I can take over and don't mind initiating the lane change and then putting it back on Autopilot. I now know of situations where the autopilot may misbehave and so can initiate the action.

It is these minor niggles about which I Cannot do anything that frustrates me ...

All said and done, I have to admit, it does have one of the best implementations of autopilot ... but nowhere close to what Mr Musk makes it sound to be.

If the autopilot is on and I indicate to change lanes, I have checked and I want it to change lanes. Why does the car think that I am wrong and then lunge back into the original lane after having initiated a lane change? It seems the car treats all its drivers like idiots - on the lowest common denominator factor for drivers I guess

 

[Lambeth Cali]

@Wild Camper
Have you thought about starting your own thread “I hate electric cars”?? There are others who I am sure would join you.

This thread has a pretty clear purpose that you are not really participating in.

 

[GrannyJen]

The West Sussex CC online “Report a Pothole“ works a treat…… you report a pothole, they survey it, send out a team to repair it, then you report it again when the repair breaks up.

Yesterday they blocked Vermont drive in East Preston for most of the morning repairing the craters.

Of the 6 repaired three have reappeared this morning.

 

[Wildcamper]

@Wild Camper
Have you thought about starting your own thread “I hate electric cars”?? There are others who I am sure would join you.

This thread has a pretty clear purpose that you are not really participating in.

Potential purchasers of EVs, and any other items, need to look at all available information and then make an informed decision that suits their needs. Or are you suggesting that potential owners just follow the heard mentality? In some cases EVs make a lot of sense, in cities and large towns, elsewhere it is far less clear cut and in many rural situations they make no sense whatever. I would hope potential owners gather as many facts/opinions as possible and make an informed decision. I actually like EVs, their driving experience is great. However, they will not solve climate change but they will contribute significantly to inner city clean air ideals.

 

[GrannyJen]

Potential purchasers of EVs, and any other items, need to look at all available information and then make an informed decision that suits their needs. Or are you suggesting that potential owners just follow the heard mentality? In some cases EVs make a lot of sense, in cities and large towns, elsewhere it is far less clear cut and in many rural situations they make no sense whatever. I would hope potential owners gather as many facts/opinions as possible and make an informed decision. I actually like EVs, their driving experience is great. However, they will not solve climate change but they will contribute significantly to inner city clean air ideals.

I quite agree with you regarding making an informed choice but whilst the Stoke Sentinel is I am sure just the media to provide such in-depth exhaustive analysis the "researcher" needs to pay a little bit of care and attention to due diligence.

Firstly I would question the state of the car he is driving. If he spent £43.45 at £0.66 p perKwH then he's added around 65-66 KwH. If that only gives him 126 miles then that is less than 2 miles per Kw which is probably less than a lead-acid milk float used to get. I have been getting around 3.1 miles per KW in my fairly basic EV in similar circumstances of cold, wipers, lights and heater on.

Filling one vehicle up with supermarket fuel and filling another up with motorway services fuel will not be a valid cost comparison in any circumstance, be it diesel, petrol or electric fuel.

I also fail to understand the "Man was it stressful" comments when arriving at a refuelling point with 7% of available fuel left. It is equally stressful in any car, regardless of the fuel that they run on and, frankly, does not say much for the intelligence of the driver who at the flick of a finger could have asked the sat nav to take him to the nearest fuelling point when discomfort is first manifested. I have many times set off on a journey with intentions to refuel at point x only to discover en-route point x is not feasible. It is not a phenomenon solely limited to EV's.

I drive an EV simply because my personal circumstances, including my conscience, makes it viable for me to do so. I am under no illusions of their limitations, To work out the maths is not rocket science although the author of the learned work published appears to want to make it so.

 

[johnyboy]

Re: autopilot you CAN undertake, you just need a blip on the throttle, then the animation changes to highlight that you are travelling faster than the traffic in the lane to the right

 

[Wildcamper]

I quite agree with you regarding making an informed choice but whilst the Stoke Sentinel is I am sure just the media to provide such in-depth exhaustive analysis the "researcher" needs to pay a little bit of care and attention to due diligence.

Firstly I would question the state of the car he is driving. If he spent £43.45 at £0.66 p perKwH then he's added around 65-66 KwH. If that only gives him 126 miles then that is less than 2 miles per Kw which is probably less than a lead-acid milk float used to get. I have been getting around 3.1 miles per KW in my fairly basic EV in similar circumstances of cold, wipers, lights and heater on.

Filling one vehicle up with supermarket fuel and filling another up with motorway services fuel will not be a valid cost comparison in any circumstance, be it diesel, petrol or electric fuel.

I also fail to understand the "Man was it stressful" comments when arriving at a refuelling point with 7% of available fuel left. It is equally stressful in any car, regardless of the fuel that they run on and, frankly, does not say much for the intelligence of the driver who at the flick of a finger could have asked the sat nav to take him to the nearest fuelling point when discomfort is first manifested. I have many times set off on a journey with intentions to refuel at point x only to discover en-route point x is not feasible. It is not a phenomenon solely limited to EV's.

I drive an EV simply because my personal circumstances, including my conscience, makes it viable for me to do so. I am under no illusions of their limitations, To work out the maths is not rocket science although the author of the learned work published appears to want to make it so.

As a retired Fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry and Fellow of the Institute of Materials a Chartered Engineer and Chartered Chemist I need no lecturing as to what constitutes a learned journal or learned research. As you say the comments have appeared elsewhere, eg The Times recently, but most individuals do not have access to the learned and peer reviewed scientific literature. So for many media articles are going to be their only source of information. This article is such a source, people can believed it or not as they wish.

Two near neighbours changed to EVs a few months ago. One has had a delightful experience the other is in crisis over her EV choice. Him with the good experience has off road parking and only does short trips. The other has no off road parking and runs and environmental business requiring significant travel to talk with clients. Her EV has lost her almost half her business as she can't commit to meetings as she can't be sure if she can get there. She can't return the EV, lease company being difficult, and can't afford a new ICE vehicle. The answer is a cheap old diesel - does not go down well with her clients. She admits she should have done more research but thought the EV was the way to go. You say the EV is the right choice for you, fantastic for you. But you are not everyone.

All I am saying is EVs do not work for all, even with their delightful driving experience. Do your homework/research and work out a business plan to see if an EV works for you. Then make an informed decision.

The thread title is "Which electric car to buy?" A valid answer is "none".