Which electric car to buy?

[Lambeth Cali]

Our BMW i3 always charge to 80% or so, cant even force it to 100%.

How old is it?
Is it not controlled on the MyBmw app?
I set the charge % on my Octopus app which gets me the 9pence per kWh.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

A quite negative but possibly fair video from Harry. His stuff on insurance and resale seem at least based on facts.

He does slightly misquote Mr Toyoda from Toyota saying only 30% of cars will be EVs but the rest of the quote is there on the screen - the remaining 70% will be fuel cell EVs, hybrids and hydrogen not ICE.

As a private buyer who is happy with 100 mile range, very very happy with 3 pence a mile and confident that my granny-charged vehicle will last 200,000 miles I feel he sort of ignores my existence.

 

[soulstyledevon]

I watched a YouTube video last night about the 10 worst depreciating EVs. I would post it, but it’s pretty dull and I only watched it, because I was bored.
All cars were 12 months old less than £10k miles. Vauxhall Moka won 42% drop
Can be had now for £15k. I’ve seen bikes at my LBS that cost more…
Now might be the time to grab a bargain, if you’re looking at owning an EV.

 

[Corradobrit]

I watched a YouTube video last night about the 10 worst depreciating EVs. I would post it, but it’s pretty dull and I only watched it, because I was bored.
All cars were 12 months old less than £10k miles. Vauxhall Moka won 42% drop
Can be had now for £15k. I’ve seen bikes at my LBS that cost more…
Now might be the time to grab a bargain, if you’re looking at owning an EV.

Any shootout with a Moka winning is a hard pass for me.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I've been toying with setting up a salary sacrifice scheme for my business, now Octopus lease nearly new.

Their packages are all in, insurance, lease, maintenance, roadside assistance, tyres. An i4 Sport costs a total of £464 per month on a 3 year, 10k miles pa lease. A Polestar 2 is £327 PCM.

Sounds decent value to me. I did a quick costing on a Golf GTi mk 7.5 - I reckon all in with depreciation at £2-3k pa and £1k maintenance, tyres etc runs to £5k pa including insurance, so £417 PCM.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Any shootout with a Moka winning is a hard pass for me.

If you calculate the PCP on a standard Family hatchback over a 3/4 year period. It would probably cost you £4k per annum in “rental” PCP payments.
You could buy the Moka with a personal loan and own it outright, with an asset to show at the end of the loan period…

 

[sidepod]

A quite negative but possibly fair video from Harry. His stuff on insurance and resale seem at least based on facts.

He does slightly misquote Mr Toyoda from Toyota saying only 30% of cars will be EVs but the rest of the quote is there on the screen - the remaining 70% will be fuel cell EVs, hybrids and hydrogen not ICE.

As a private buyer who is happy with 100 mile range, very very happy with 3 pence a mile and confident that my granny-charged vehicle will last 200,000 miles I feel he sort of ignores my existence.

I watched that too. Take away for me was -

Total uk road transport co2 production is 15%.
Strip out commercial trucks/busses etc and you have just 7%.
In other words, we’re going through all of this EV nonsense just to save 7%. (I’m not sure if that figure includes energy production to charge them or not?

Out the the remaining 85% total uk co2 production I’m confident we could easily find a 7% cut elsewhere!

The fact that the main stealers don’t want second hand EVs on their forecourts was a bit of a shocker.

You’d have to be insane to buy an EV at the moment.

 

[Boomer]

I watched that too. Take away for me was -

Total uk road transport co2 production is 15%.
Strip out commercial trucks/busses etc and you have just 7%.
In other words, we’re going through all of this EV nonsense just to save 7%. (I’m not sure if that figure includes energy production to charge them or not?

Out the the remaining 85% total uk co2 production I’m confident we could easily find a 7% cut elsewhere!

The fact that the main stealers don’t want second hand EVs on their forecourts was a bit of a shocker.

You’d have to be insane to buy an EV at the moment.

I usually like watching Harry's Garage, but he's definitely got a bee in his bonnet about EVs at the moment.

I think his comment about the price is valid as EVs are more expensive than petrol equivalents, but I partly see that as a by product of the insanity over COVID with both new and used prices. There were no new discounts, and cars (especially nearly new) were often attracting a premium. That's no longer the case and things have largely returned to how they were before were everyone haggled. But people have been bitten by paying over the odds to have something now and then realised 1, 2, 3 years later that the market was not operating correctly (California market a classic example).

But manufacturers haven't adapted (apart from Tesla who have slashed prices) and pump out more expensive RRP products which consumers finally aren't having any more.

Insurance is definitely an issue. Definitely up across the board but EVs seen more affected. I think this is largely driven by parts availability than anything else so people are driving around in expensive hire cars whilst waiting for their car to be fixed. Yes, I know there are those media stories about batteries costing tens of thousands to replace but they will be the rare examples. But increase parts supply, reduce insurance. Doesn't help in the meantime though so I get that point.

EVs obviously work from a company car perspective, but this has the bonus of lots of cheap(er) models available at 3 or 4 yrs old on the second hand market.

I don't get his point about the cost of the Range Rovers. One's a Range Rover Sport diesel and the others a proper Range Rover hybrid. Different car, different category, different technology and therefore a different price. Not sure why he's so surprised.

Most recent government data about transport emissions attached. Still a big contributor to green house gases, still probably the sector that can most easily adapt, and as pointed out, it's not just about green house gases, but also air quality and public health implications. And even if transport is only 15% (government report says it's more), we can't stay on the course we're on.

Note: data in the report is skewed by COVID restrictions.

Transport and environment statistics: 2023

www.gov.uk

 

[soulstyledevon]

I usually like watching Harry's Garage, but he's definitely got a bee in his bonnet about EVs at the moment.

I think his comment about the price is valid as EVs are more expensive than petrol equivalents, but I partly see that as a by product of the insanity over COVID with both new and used prices. There were no new discounts, and cars (especially nearly new) were often attracting a premium. That's no longer the case and things have largely returned to how they were before were everyone haggled. But people have been bitten by paying over the odds to have something now and then realised 1, 2, 3 years later that the market was not operating correctly (California market a classic example).

But manufacturers haven't adapted (apart from Tesla who have slashed prices) and pump out more expensive RRP products which consumers finally aren't having any more.

Insurance is definitely an issue. Definitely up across the board but EVs seen more affected. I think this is largely driven by parts availability than anything else so people are driving around in expensive hire cars whilst waiting for their car to be fixed. Yes, I know there are those media stories about batteries costing tens of thousands to replace but they will be the rare examples. But increase parts supply, reduce insurance. Doesn't help in the meantime though so I get that point.

EVs obviously work from a company car perspective, but this has the bonus of lots of cheap(er) models available at 3 or 4 yrs old on the second hand market.

I don't get his point about the cost of the Range Rovers. One's a Range Rover Sport diesel and the others a proper Range Rover hybrid. Different car, different category, different technology and therefore a different price. Not sure why he's so surprised.

Most recent government data about transport emissions attached. Still a big contributor to green house gases, still probably the sector that can most easily adapt, and as pointed out, it's not just about green house gases, but also air quality and public health implications. And even if transport is only 15% (government report says it's more), we can't stay on the course we're on.

Note: data in the report is skewed by COVID restrictions.

Transport and environment statistics: 2023

www.gov.uk

Great post.
Spot on

 

[B J G]

I've noticed that the Advertising Authority have now banned using the term 'Zero Emissions' as it ignores build and electricity generating emissions which is misleading.

Also seen that Fiat are cutting EV production rates and Ford USA switching to Hybrid due to not recoupng EV production costs with reducing demand kicking in for EV's.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I watched that too. Take away for me was -

Total uk road transport co2 production is 15%.
Strip out commercial trucks/busses etc and you have just 7%.
In other words, we’re going through all of this EV nonsense just to save 7%. (I’m not sure if that figure includes energy production to charge them or not?

Out the the remaining 85% total uk co2 production I’m confident we could easily find a 7% cut elsewhere!

The fact that the main stealers don’t want second hand EVs on their forecourts was a bit of a shocker.

You’d have to be insane to buy an EV at the moment.

Leasing a nearly new is an entirely different calculus though.

They’ve worn the massive depreciation. And 1,200 miles per month home charging costs £35.

At 50 mpg a diesel would cost £160.

 

[B J G]

Leasing a nearly new is an entirely different calculus though.

They’ve worn the massive depreciation. And 1,200 miles per month home charging costs £35.

At 50 mpg a diesel would cost £160.

Seems most views of the benefits of EV's seems to relate to mileage costs which are subsidised currently.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Seems most views of the benefits of EV's seems to relate to mileage costs which are subsidised currently.

That and tax breaks. Mileage costs are only subsidised insofar as you charge on off peak periods for the grid.

Not sure that’s any different to an Economy 7 electricity tariff? I don’t think that’s a subsidy. It’s supply & demand in its purest form surely?

 

[B J G]

That and tax breaks. Mileage costs are only subsidised insofar as you charge on off peak periods for the grid.

Not sure that’s any different to an Economy 7 electricity tariff? I don’t think that’s a subsidy. It’s supply & demand in its purest form surely?

No VED contribution to road network useage?

There is also the installation of a home charger cost to be added to the running cost over ownership period. Manufacturers now seem to have dropped this free option.

 

[Corradobrit]

That and tax breaks. Mileage costs are only subsidised insofar as you charge on off peak periods for the grid.

Not sure that’s any different to an Economy 7 electricity tariff? I don’t think that’s a subsidy. It’s supply & demand in its purest form surely?

Isn`t the road tax cheaper too and based on CO2 emissions?

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Isn`t the road tax cheaper too and based on CO2 emissions?

Correct. But all road tax is C02 indexed. So not an EV specific subsidy as such.

Well now it’s list price indexed.

From 2025 BEVs have to pay road tax.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

Road tax was abolished in 1937. Its car tax now even though many still call it road tax.

The fuel tax dwarfs the car tax anyway, doesn't it? That's how the treasury milks motorists.

 

[Hawthorn37]

A quite negative but possibly fair video from Harry. His stuff on insurance and resale seem at least based on facts.

He does slightly misquote Mr Toyoda from Toyota saying only 30% of cars will be EVs but the rest of the quote is there on the screen - the remaining 70% will be fuel cell EVs, hybrids and hydrogen not ICE.

As a private buyer who is happy with 100 mile range, very very happy with 3 pence a mile and confident that my granny-charged vehicle will last 200,000 miles I feel he sort of ignores my existence.

Wow. Good video. I can understand some slight bias creeps in due to personal views versus hard data, but overall the analysis supports my gut feel regards when to jump into electric. We’d quite like to move to electric (we can charge at home for probably 75% of our needs), but until the whole market stabilises we’re reluctant investing in something that will have a far bigger depreciation than our ICE vehicles.

 

[B J G]

Road tax was abolished in 1937. Its car tax now even though many still call it road tax.

The fuel tax dwarfs the car tax anyway, doesn't it? That's how the treasury milks motorists.

That would depend on annual first year mileage use and if the luxury car tax was applied.

 

[GrannyJen]

No VED contribution to road network useage?

There is also the installation of a home charger cost to be added to the running cost over ownership period. Manufacturers now seem to have dropped this free option.

I've ran my EV for 21 months now and still no need for a home charger.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

No VED contribution to road network useage?

There is also the installation of a home charger cost to be added to the running cost over ownership period. Manufacturers now seem to have dropped this free option.

The generous folk at Octopus install a home charger as part of the lease deal.

If you can’t have a charger at home, you receive 4,000 miles of charge credit.

 

[sidepod]

Leasing a nearly new is an entirely different calculus though.

They’ve worn the massive depreciation. And 1,200 miles per month home charging costs £35.

At 50 mpg a diesel would cost £160.

Run that Calc again with non home charging (I never fill up with diesel at home!!). Whilst you’re at it add in a cost for all the hours you’re standing around waiting to charge.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

Run that Calc again with non home charging (I never fill up with diesel at home!!). Whilst you’re at it add in a cost for all the hours you’re standing around waiting to charge.

I was amazed at the price of roadside charging. Hopefully I’ll never do it.
Home overnight 9pence per kWh
Normally 32 pence per kWh
Roadside 60-80 pence per kWh.
Scandalous. Almost a cartel.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Run that Calc again with non home charging (I never fill up with diesel at home!!). Whilst you’re at it add in a cost for all the hours you’re standing around waiting to charge.

Yeah. But I do charge at home. So I am comparing monthly costs.

If you can’t change at home, feel free to calculate for your use case.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I was amazed at the price of roadside charging. Hopefully I’ll never do it.
Home overnight 9pence per kWh
Normally 32 pence per kWh
Roadside 60-80 pence per kWh.
Scandalous. Almost a cartel.

Mafia couldn’t come up with a better racket.

Except maybe GWR trains.