Which electric car to buy?

[sidepod]

Yeah. But I do charge at home. So I am comparing monthly costs.

If you can’t change at home, feel free to calculate for your use case.

Point being, your comparison was apples/pairs not like for like, so meaningless.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Point being, your comparison was apples/pairs not like for like, so meaningless.

I’m not sure it’s meaningless at all. I’m comparing the cost per mile for two alternative fuels I have the option to use.

One has a significantly lower cost per mile to me.

 

[GrannyJen]

Point being, your comparison was apples/pairs not like for like, so meaningless.

How?

Every single one of us has unique circumstances.

I only charge my EV when the sun is out and even in this miserable winter I have managed to pop in 3,000 miles worth of fuel at worst a cost of 5p per kwH, each KwH giving me 4 miles range.

If I did not have a house on the South Coast with a South-facing roof able to accommodate 18 solar panels and have a diesel camper in the drive able to take me anywhere that is more than about 200 miles from my house then I might think again about an EV but frankly it is a joke. Go somewhere, do 200 miles, come home, plug in, wait for the sun to come out and refuel?

 

[Lambeth Cali]

How?

Every single one of us has unique circumstances.

I only charge my EV when the sun is out and even in this miserable winter I have managed to pop in 3,000 miles worth of fuel at worst a cost of 5p per kwH, each KwH giving me 4 miles range.

If I did not have a house on the South Coast with a South-facing roof able to accommodate 18 solar panels and have a diesel camper in the drive able to take me anywhere that is more than about 200 miles from my house then I might think again about an EV but frankly it is a joke. Go somewhere, do 200 miles, come home, plug in, wait for the sun to come out and refuel?

Do you use a 3 pin plug to charge your Cupra? I think you said no fast charger.

 

[sidepod]

I’m not sure it’s meaningless at all. I’m comparing the cost per mile for two alternative fuels I have the option to use.

One has a significantly lower cost per mile to me.

I give up

 

[GrannyJen]

Do you use a 3 pin plug to charge your Cupra? I think you said no fast charger.

Standard 3 pin from existing mains socket in the garage. Plug in as soon as it's parked on the drive and use the phone app to tell it when to charge. Most times it is charging when my Solar panels are producing in excess of domestic consumption.

 

[vmaxkiddy]

I was amazed at the price of roadside charging. Hopefully I’ll never do it.
Home overnight 9pence per kWh
Normally 32 pence per kWh
Roadside 60-80 pence per kW

Roadside charging has 20% VAT applied, using home charging it’s only 5%.

 

[vmaxkiddy]

Mafia couldn’t come up with a better racket.

Except maybe GWR trains.

And HMRC who charge 20% VAT on public charging.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

I give up

Perhaps if you made your point more clearly you wouldn’t need to give up?

My point is simple. I own a few cars, hybrid, petrol and diesel.

I am looking at total cost/mile for my next car. One I am considering is an i4 which has a range of 300 miles.

One consideration is lease cost vs cost of ownership of an equivalent ICE car. My calculations (summarised earlier in this thread), are an i4 costs a similar amount per annum as a used GOLF GTi Mk 7.5 - another car I am considering.

Yes, an i4 is not equivalent to a Golf. It’s far bigger & more expensive. The rationale for the choices? They both excel in their respective classes. By gathering data (my mate runs Collecting Cars & used to run Pistonheads, so I trust the source), the total annual costs of ownership were similar - buying GTI vs leasing a used i4. To simplify the calculations, I ignored the opportunity cost of capital in leasing vs buying and retaining the underlying asset.

The next element of cost of ownership would be fuel/charging.

My current diesel averages long term 40 MPG. I was generous and gave a modern equivalent diesel a hypothetical 50 MPG.

I have long term data for an i4 charging using Octopus at home. £35 converts to 1,200 miles.

I simply converted the 1,200 miles into a price at the pump for diesel. 1,200/50 = 24 gallons. Using a long term assumption of £1.50/L at 4.546 L/gallon equals £163.65 for 1,200 miles.

For simplicity I have ignored the tax, BIK, VED etc from this.

I’m all ears as to why this is flawed logic?

 

[JuanVecino2023]

And HMRC who charge 20% VAT on public charging.

HMRC sadly win at everything. They are now taxing money I put in my kid’s savings account for chores.

Tax on money I’ve already been taxed on to save for my children so they don’t have to be a burden on the state.

Of course it makes sense.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

EV sales in the UK are flagging, so there's pressure on HMRC to reduce the VAT on new EV's by half. I can see this happening as the government want nearly a quarter of new cars to be EV's and they're no where near close.

 

[soulstyledevon]

EV sales in the UK are flagging, so there's pressure on HMRC to reduce the VAT on new EV's by half. I can see this happening as the government want nearly a quarter of new cars to be EV's and they're no where near close.

Where are you getting your data from…?
According to this article, EV new & used sales are strong…?

Used car market up as EV sales reach record levels

UK used car transactions grow 5.1% in 2023, with 7,242,692 changing hands as improving new car market re-energises supply. Superminis and black paint most popular used car style choices, taking 32.1% and 21.4% of the market respectively. Battery electric car…

www.smmt.co.uk

 

[Barry Chuckle]

Where are you getting your data from…?
According to this article, EV new & used sales are strong…?

Used car market up as EV sales reach record levels

UK used car transactions grow 5.1% in 2023, with 7,242,692 changing hands as improving new car market re-energises supply. Superminis and black paint most popular used car style choices, taking 32.1% and 21.4% of the market respectively. Battery electric car…

www.smmt.co.uk

Electric car sales in UK flatline, prompting calls for VAT cut

Stalled growth in electric vehicles comes despite government goal to phase out petrol, diesel and hybrid vehicles by 2035

www.theguardian.com

 

[soulstyledevon]

Electric car sales in UK flatline, prompting calls for VAT cut

Stalled growth in electric vehicles comes despite government goal to phase out petrol, diesel and hybrid vehicles by 2035

www.theguardian.com

THIS ARTICLE IS MORE THAN 1 MONTH OLD…

 

[JuanVecino2023]

THIS ARTICLE IS MORE THAN 1 MONTH OLD…

Part of the key was to unlock a secondary market for EVs. Given the vast majority will be business leases.

Private buyers are put off by depreciation/valuation, infrastructure, public charging costs, repair costs of buying EV with potential cracked battery etc.

A primary market only works with a solid secondary market to support it.

To my mind Octopus EV provides this. They lease second hand EV and wholly own them, as opposed to being a broker.

I figure this goes a long way to supporting the market.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

Quite an interesting article though.

Given Covid, cost of living crisis, Ukraine and chip shortages I don’t think any figures can represent how people feel about electric cars. But of course the press will use the same figures to show opposite things.

Having said that I can quite believe there has been a recognisable stall in sales. Anecdotally I know one person who leased an Audi Etron who hated the experience. With the price of fuel coming down and electricity going up over the last few months I can also believe some people have delayed swapping over.

We love our i3. But it just fits into our life perfectly.

I go back to my overall opinion though that the EU has set targets, the US don’t want China to dominate the market and the manufacturers have decided to switch over, therefore it’s happening. There will inevitably be bumps in the road.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

Part of the key was to unlock a secondary market for EVs. Given the vast majority will be business leases.

Private buyers are put off by depreciation/valuation, infrastructure, public charging costs, repair costs of buying EV with potential cracked battery etc.

A primary market only works with a solid secondary market to support it.

To my mind Octopus EV provides this. They lease second hand EV and wholly own them, as opposed to being a broker.

I figure this goes a long way to supporting the market.

The Harry’s Garage video where he said garages need to sell 22% new electric so don’t want to sell any used as it eats into their new sales was baffling. If he is right that is a bit of a legislative f***up.
I suppose it is an excellent opportunity for Octopus to pick up a lot of used BEVs.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Run that Calc again with non home charging (I never fill up with diesel at home!!). Whilst you’re at it add in a cost for all the hours you’re standing around waiting to charge.

If you want, I could apply your logic and factor in the driving detour from my home to a garage forecourt to fill up with DERV, both in terms of time taken to drive, queue and fill the tank, pay the cashier. Heck, just to be consistent I’ll take the time to wash the diesel off my hands afterwards.

Or I could sit at home watching the sport while my car silently charges outside. And look at some geeky spreadsheets calculating the tax and running costs savings.

Sarcasm begets sarcasm.

 

[Amarillo]

HMRC sadly win at everything. They are now taxing money I put in my kid’s savings account for chores.

Tax on money I’ve already been taxed on to save for my children so they don’t have to be a burden on the state.

Of course it makes sense.

Then you are doing something wrong.

HMRC give my children +25% of up to £2880 that I give them each tax year. That’s a cash tax refund worth up to £720 per annum.

The only downside (and it’s a pretty big downside) it that they cannot access the cash bonanza they’ve earned from cleaning the van or washing the BBQ or cutting the grass or washing the dog (or whatever else) until they are 67.

 

[Corradobrit]

The Harry’s Garage video where he said garages need to sell 22% new electric so don’t want to sell any used as it eats into their new sales was baffling. If he is right that is a bit of a legislative f***up.

From Top Gear
"From 2024, car makers need to sell 22 per cent all-electric. By 2028, that figure would increase to 52 per cent and then to 80 per cent by 2030"

I don't see these companies hitting those targets without some major changes to their business models.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Then you are doing something wrong.

HMRC give my children +25% of up to £2880 that I give them each tax year. That’s a cash tax refund worth up to £720 per annum.

The only downside (and it’s a pretty big downside) it that they cannot access the cash bonanza they’ve earned from cleaning the van or washing the BBQ or cutting the grass or washing the dog (or whatever else) until they are 67.

This is what I was referring to. Not ISAs or retirement funds. Just pocket money I give so they have independence as young adults.

Interest on savings for children

How children's savings accounts are taxed, and the £100 limit on savings given by parents

www.gov.uk

 

[JuanVecino2023]

From Top Gear
"From 2024, car makers need to sell 22 per cent all-electric. By 2028, that figure would increase to 52 per cent and then to 80 per cent by 2030"

I don't see these companies hitting those targets without some major changes to their business models.

I think we are just early along the adoption curve. Prices usually reflect this. Early adopters pay more for tech.

I still believe EV is Betamax. It’s just hard to determine how far we are along that timeline.

EV or other clean fuels will increasingly be a necessity in cities.

The issue is how to improve the biggest polluters, commercial. Micro hubs and all electric last mile delivery will slowly help.

 

[Amarillo]

This is what I was referring to. Not ISAs or retirement funds. Just pocket money I give so they have independence as young adults.

Interest on savings for children

How children's savings accounts are taxed, and the £100 limit on savings given by parents

www.gov.uk

Give the money to your mum to give to your children. Document your mum’s gift to your children but don’t document your gift to your mum.

Or have a symbiotic relationship with a neighbour where your children do paid chores for them and their children do paid chores for you.

Or, use it as an excuse to cut your children’s allowance.

 

[JuanVecino2023]

Give the money to your mum to give to your children. Document your mum’s gift to your children but don’t document your gift to your mum.

Or have a symbiotic relationship with a neighbour where your children do paid chores for them and their children do paid chores for you.

Or, use it as an excuse to cut your children’s allowance.

I’d love to. But my parents are no longer with us.

Mechanics aside, my point was more about a bankrupt country ramping up the double taxation & stealth taxes.

 

[Amarillo]

I’d love to. But my parents are no longer with us.

Mechanics aside, my point was more about a bankrupt country ramping up the double taxation & stealth taxes.

The rich can still gift 18x£9,000 to their children in a tax exempt envelope. With mediocre compound investment returns that should be worth about £325,000 at age eighteen. Plenty for a drug fuelled orgy of wanton teenage escapism.

There are still families, especially in Liverpool and Bristol passing down wealth made off the back of the slave trade. It stokes the socialist in me at the injustice of it.

The UK is probably the worst in Europe at redistributing wealth.