Which electric car to buy?

[Wildcamper]

Don’t know about “visionary” more likely the owner of a bus company!
He certainly had a point. When I see new housing developments I‘m amazed at the lack of provision for cars, minimal parking and narrow roads.

I expect in the end one Government or another will restrict private car ownership, probably by stealth - for that read tax.Taking the existing car population and simply transposing ICEs for batteries make no sense, even though the inner city effect would be considerable. I noted last weekend that some very high profile Oxford academics were questioning where all the electricity will come from, a question I have repeatedly asked for 20 years!

 

[soulstyledevon]

I expect in the end one Government or another will restrict private car ownership, probably by stealth - for that read tax.Taking the existing car population and simply transposing ICEs for batteries make no sense, even though the inner city effect would be considerable. I noted last weekend that some very high profile Oxford academics were questioning where all the electricity will come from, a question I have repeatedly asked for 20 years!

Not forgetting the government want us all to ditch gas boilers and convert to ground/air source heat pumps, which use more electricity.

I think we will need more windmills…

 

[vmaxkiddy]

Don’t know about “visionary” more likely the owner of a bus company!
He certainly had a point. When I see new housing developments I‘m amazed at the lack of provision for cars, minimal parking and narrow roads.

It was either John Prescott or Gordon Brown that changed the rules for new developments when they were in power to an average number of parking spaces per house would be 1.2. That may well have changed now.

 

[Wildcamper]

Not forgetting the government want us all to ditch gas boilers and convert to ground/air source heat pumps, which use more electricity.

I think we will need more windmills…

Have you calculated how many windmills would be required for an all electric economy ( vehicles + heating etc) and then converted that to required land area! I was part of a group that did this some 10 years ago and the result was staggering! If I recall correctly it would require the close packing of wind turbines covering all of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Dorset and a good part of Hampshire. I must revisit this and see if anything has changed. Our report was embargoed.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Have you calculated how many windmills would be required for an all electric economy ( vehicles + heating etc) and then converted that to required land area! I was part of a group that did this some 10 years ago and the result was staggering! If I recall correctly it would require the close packing of wind turbines covering all of Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Dorset and a good part of Hampshire. I must revisit this and see if anything has changed. Our report was embargoed.

Weiterleitungshinweis

 

[Wildcamper]

Weiterleitungshinweis

Off shore could account for something approaching 1/2 the requirement. That still leaves Cornwall, Devon and most of Somerset.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Off shore could account for something approaching 1/2 the requirement. That still leaves Cornwall, Devon and most of Somerset.

Im guessing that’s why they have stuck loads out on the North Sea…

I am interested to hear any further info you may have.
It’s an important subject going forward on how we generate our future electricity needs.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Im guessing that’s why they have stuck loads out on the North Sea…

I am interested to hear any further info you may have.
It’s an important subject going forward on how we generate our future electricity needs.

Nuclear

 

[willwander]

Nuclear

Solar

It takes decades to spin up a new nuclear power plant. They are mostly just a cover for making bombs.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Solar

It takes decades to spin up a new nuclear power plant. They are mostly just a cover for making bombs.

We are perhaps dammed if we do, dammed if we don’t…
According to this report.

Solar panels in Sahara could boost renewable energy but damage the global climate – here's why

In a bid to ditch fossil fuels, some countries are considering carpeting deserts with solar panels.

www.google.co.uk

 

[Amarillo]

Nuclear

Vast arrays of panels in space with the energy beamed down to Earth by laser.

Perhaps in time they’ll be able to split the power beam so lower energy beams can track trucks, ships, planes and trains to power them directly as they travel about.

 

[willwander]

Vast arrays of panels in space with the energy beamed down to Earth by laser.

Perhaps in time they’ll be able to split the power beam so lower energy beams can track trucks, ships, planes and trains to power them directly as they travel about.

 

[Wildcamper]

Vast arrays of panels in space with the energy beamed down to Earth by laser.

Perhaps in time they’ll be able to split the power beam so lower energy beams can track trucks, ships, planes and trains to power them directly as they travel about.

Very James Bond.

 

[Whistler]

Vast arrays of panels in space with the energy beamed down to Earth by laser.

Perhaps in time they’ll be able to split the power beam so lower energy beams can track trucks, ships, planes and trains to power them directly as they travel about.

The US Air Force are conducting work into such an idea. The are looking at ways to supply power to Remote bases.

The US Air Force wants to beam solar power to Earth from space (video)

A power-beaming experiment is scheduled to launch in 2024.

www.space.com

Sent from my SM-A515F using Tapatalk

 

[Borris]

Vast arrays of panels in space with the energy beamed down to Earth by laser.

Perhaps in time they’ll be able to split the power beam so lower energy beams can track trucks, ships, planes and trains to power them directly as they travel about.

Unless they use Thunderbird 2, that doesn't sound at all green to me.

 

[This Eva]

A colleague of mine 20 yrs ago (yes really not me) was of the view you should only be able to own a car if you have a garage to put it in. A visionary ?

I have 3 cars / vans so have the required 3 garages. Saving up for an Aston Martin and another garage

 

[Wildcamper]

Last week two senior academics from Oxford University with extensive experience in an alternative fuelled future questioned where the electricity was too come from for an electric future. Today in the Sunday Times Dominic Lawson highlights the same question but covers a larger remit.

For those interested in an electricity demand for all cars to be electric do the following calculation and confirm my numbers yourself, or come up with something different. Happy for all, any, to disagree. Let's see your calculations.

DVLA says there are 40 milion cars.
Assume all will be electric
Max power out put of an electric car about 50kWhr
So max demand if all cars out running at fully power (unrealistic but wait for correction) is 40 million X 50 kWh
Divide by 1000 to get MW and by another 1000 to get GW. The new Hinckley Point should produce 3.8GW on completion. Divide the total GW by 3.8 to get the number of Hinckley Point equivalents needed. Now some corrections. Not all cars are used all the time, average usage is around 10%. Divide total Hinckley Points by 10. Second correction, not all cars are used at full power all the time. On cruise my 2018 Golf uses about 1/2 the max rated output. Assume this is true for electric vehicles so divide the 10% number of Hinckley Points by 2. You now have an estimate of the number of Hinckley Points needed just for the cars assuming the same vehicle density. You should get 100 Hinckley Points! If one is out by 50%that is 50 Hinckley Points - realistic or not. Have rounded up some of the numbers to make the calculation easy. If one adds in all the heat pumps to facilitate the removal of gas boilers - well not done that but it will be a lot bigger. Converting 50 or 100 Hinckley Points into wind, offshore or onshore is frightening. Convert to solar panels, I don't really want to go there!

The electric solutions is only possible if something like 75% of us give up personal transport! Have not added in the environmental scaring of Cobalt, Lithium and Neodymium mining - look these up plenty of information.

Am not against electric cars, they are a great drive and would cut inner city pollution dramatically. If they were realistic I would get one tomorrow.

Another way to do this is to take the total petrol and diesel used in the UK, convert to electricity equivalents, correct for inefficient ICE energy transfer to motive power to efficient electricity conversion. What do you get.

 

[Wildcamper]

Last week two senior academics from Oxford University with extensive experience in an alternative fuelled future questioned where the electricity was too come from for an electric future. Today in the Sunday Times Dominic Lawson highlights the same question but covers a larger remit.

For those interested in an electricity demand for all cars to be electric do the following calculation and confirm my numbers yourself, or come up with something different. Happy for all, any, to disagree. Let's see your calculations.

DVLA says there are 40 milion cars.
Assume all will be electric
Max power out put of an electric car about 50kWhr
So max demand if all cars out running at fully power (unrealistic but wait for correction) is 40 million X 50 kWh
Divide by 1000 to get MW and by another 1000 to get GW. The new Hinckley Point should produce 3.8GW on completion. Divide the total GW by 3.8 to get the number of Hinckley Point equivalents needed. Now some corrections. Not all cars are used all the time, average usage is around 10%. Divide total Hinckley Points by 10. Second correction, not all cars are used at full power all the time. On cruise my 2018 Golf uses about 1/2 the max rated output. Assume this is true for electric vehicles so divide the 10% number of Hinckley Points by 2. You now have an estimate of the number of Hinckley Points needed just for the cars assuming the same vehicle density. You should get 100 Hinckley Points! If one is out by 50%that is 50 Hinckley Points - realistic or not. Have rounded up some of the numbers to make the calculation easy. If one adds in all the heat pumps to facilitate the removal of gas boilers - well not done that but it will be a lot bigger. Converting 50 or 100 Hinckley Points into wind, offshore or onshore is frightening. Convert to solar panels, I don't really want to go there!

The electric solutions is only possible if something like 75% of us give up personal transport! Have not added in the environmental scaring of Cobalt, Lithium and Neodymium mining - look these up plenty of information.

Am not against electric cars, they are a great drive and would cut inner city pollution dramatically. If they were realistic I would get one tomorrow.

Another way to do this is to take the total petrol and diesel used in the UK, convert to electricity equivalents, correct for inefficient ICE energy transfer to motive power to efficient electricity conversion. What do you get.

PS, for wind power don't forget multiply the energy required by 3. It is well known that for wind if you want a reliable 2Mwh output you need to install 6Mwh.

 

[Amarillo]

Last week two senior academics from Oxford University with extensive experience in an alternative fuelled future questioned where the electricity was too come from for an electric future. Today in the Sunday Times Dominic Lawson highlights the same question but covers a larger remit.

For those interested in an electricity demand for all cars to be electric do the following calculation and confirm my numbers yourself, or come up with something different. Happy for all, any, to disagree. Let's see your calculations.

DVLA says there are 40 milion cars.
Assume all will be electric
Max power out put of an electric car about 50kWhr
So max demand if all cars out running at fully power (unrealistic but wait for correction) is 40 million X 50 kWh
Divide by 1000 to get MW and by another 1000 to get GW. The new Hinckley Point should produce 3.8GW on completion. Divide the total GW by 3.8 to get the number of Hinckley Point equivalents needed. Now some corrections. Not all cars are used all the time, average usage is around 10%. Divide total Hinckley Points by 10. Second correction, not all cars are used at full power all the time. On cruise my 2018 Golf uses about 1/2 the max rated output. Assume this is true for electric vehicles so divide the 10% number of Hinckley Points by 2. You now have an estimate of the number of Hinckley Points needed just for the cars assuming the same vehicle density. You should get 100 Hinckley Points! If one is out by 50%that is 50 Hinckley Points - realistic or not. Have rounded up some of the numbers to make the calculation easy. If one adds in all the heat pumps to facilitate the removal of gas boilers - well not done that but it will be a lot bigger. Converting 50 or 100 Hinckley Points into wind, offshore or onshore is frightening. Convert to solar panels, I don't really want to go there!

The electric solutions is only possible if something like 75% of us give up personal transport! Have not added in the environmental scaring of Cobalt, Lithium and Neodymium mining - look these up plenty of information.

Am not against electric cars, they are a great drive and would cut inner city pollution dramatically. If they were realistic I would get one tomorrow.

Another way to do this is to take the total petrol and diesel used in the UK, convert to electricity equivalents, correct for inefficient ICE energy transfer to motive power to efficient electricity conversion. What do you get.

I think private cars are parked 96.5% of the time.

 

[Whistler]

So max demand if all cars out running at fully power (unrealistic but wait for correction) is 40 million X 50 kWh
Divide by 1000 to get MW and by another 1000 to get GW. The new Hinckley Point should produce 3.8GW on completion. Divide the total GW by 3.8 to get the number of Hinckley Point equivalents needed. Now some corrections.

The physics in there are wrong. The Author goes from kWh to Watts without reference to time

A kWh is a measurement of Energy not Power. It is the amount of energy consumed in one hour running a 1 kW load. It is actually 3.6Million Joules of energy -> 1000 W * 3600 Seconds

A 3.6 Gigawatts Hinckley will produce 3.6 GigaJoules of Energy per second

A 50 kWh battery will store 180 Million Joules of energy.

Let us assume on average every one of the 40 Million vehicles is charged once every 2 weeks

We get to 7.2 Million GigaJoules every 2 weeks. This would take Hinckley Point 2000 hours or 83.3 days to produce. So to get that amount of energy every 2 weeks you need 5.95 Hinckle Points running full pelt 24/7 just to charge the electric vehicles.

Ok - This is back of a Cigarette Packet calculations, we would need a lot more than that because of inefficiencies and losses in transmission, transfers to batteries and peaks when people want to charge their vehicles.

 

[Wildcamper]

The physics in there are wrong. The Author goes from kWh to Watts without reference to time

A kWh is a measurement of Energy not Power. It is the amount of energy consumed in one hour running a 1 kW load. It is actually 3.6Million Joules of energy -> 1000 W * 3600 Seconds

A 3.6 Gigawatts Hinckley will produce 3.6 GigaJoules of Energy per second

A 50 kWh battery will store 180 Million Joules of energy.

Let us assume on average every one of the 40 Million vehicles is charged once every 2 weeks

We get to 7.2 Million GigaJoules every 2 weeks. This would take Hinckley Point 2000 hours or 83.3 days to produce. So to get that amount of energy every 2 weeks you need 5.95 Hinckle Points running full pelt 24/7 just to charge the electric vehicles.

Ok - This is back of a Cigarette Packet calculations, we would need a lot more than that because of inefficiencies and losses in transmission, transfers to batteries and peaks when people want to charge their vehicles.

Not sure you are correct, everything was in Wh. However, assuming you are correct are you aware of any plans to build 6+ Hinckley Points?

 

[willwander]

Yeah but the green revolution will mean not everyone with a car right now will end up with an electric car, they are only meant for posh people, the lazy poor are supposed to walk or take the bus.

 

[Whistler]

Not sure you are correct, everything was in Wh. However, assuming you are correct are you aware of any plans to build 6+ Hinckley Points?

First off I agree with you the electrical power we will need to generate is phenomenal and I have neither seen or heard of any realistic plan to have that capacity.

I'm fairly confident in the maths and physics, even if was 35 years ago since I last put my Physics to the test. Power Station output is measured in Watts (Joules/second). Batteries in kWh (Joules) He never references time after mentioning the 50kWh battery. Some of my assumptions (charging once a fortnight) are wet finger in the air, so could be well off. In fact I think you would need at least double the number of nuclear power plants, just to ensure you have the capacity for the anticipated overnight peak charging times. Then of course there will be maintenance and outages

The problem is not about the energy production required when driving as the energy is already stored in the battery. It is the when the batteries need charging is the problem.

 

[Wildcamper]

First off I agree with you the electrical power we will need to generate is phenomenal and I have neither seen or heard of any realistic plan to have that capacity.

I'm fairly confident in the maths and physics, even if was 35 years ago since I last put my Physics to the test. Power Station output is measured in Watts (Joules/second). Batteries in kWh (Joules) He never references time after mentioning the 50kWh battery. Some of my assumptions (charging once a fortnight) are wet finger in the air, so could be well off. In fact I think you would need at least double the number of nuclear power plants, just to ensure you have the capacity for the anticipated overnight peak charging times. Then of course there will be maintenance and outages

The problem is not about the energy production required when driving as the energy is already stored in the battery. It is the when the batteries need charging is the problem.

Thank you for your thoughts. As you say the key point is that the amount of energy required is phenomenal and multiple Hinckley Point equivalents will be needed. Did you read the Dominic Lawson article in the Sunday Times?

 

[RodCouncil]

Some of the sofa maths on here is outstanding, ultimately it’s going to be a mix of solutions but the sooner ICE is the thinner end of the wedge the better.