Wild Camping

[Velma's Dad]

The Loch Lomond permit scheme to manage wild camping is proving tricky and expensive to enforce. Somebody has performed a thorough analysis of the situation in the attached link, as there are proposals to introduce similar schemes in other areas in Scotland.

• And, for reasons explained above, the Park has effectively had to abandon all attempts to ban the parking of campervans and caravans because of its misunderstanding of the relationship between the camping byelaw provisions in the 2003 Act and Road Traffic legislation.

The reason referred to is that you are allowed to sleep in your car for safety reasons to prevent tired driving.

Response to Scottish Parliament Petition 1751 to “Create no wild camp zones in Scotland” - parkswatchscotland

In September, the local SNP Councillor for North, West and Central Sutherland, Kirsteen Currie (see here), lodged a petition with the Scottish Parliament petitions Committee to create no wild camp zones in Scotland (see here). The petition was prompted by perceived concerns with the impact of...

parkswatchscotland.co.uk

That's an interesting link - although I must admit to not reading all the legislative dimensions! The points they make are that it's not necessarily overnight parking/camping per se that's the problem (eg in the Lomond area), you have to look at the whole picture including drinking parties that cause a lot of antisocial behaviour etc that may not even involve camping.

They also call for much better roadside infrastructure/facilities, that they say would be fully expected in most European countries. That's an interesting point I think. What causes the worst visual impact and intrusion, is it campervans in laybys and other roadside spaces, or the road itself and the traffic on it, which will exist in any case? But if you provide better facilities, will that increase demand for motorised access to National Parks etc - and if so, is that necessarily a bad thing and how can that increased demand be monetised for further investment?

Lots of food for thought anyway.

 

[Lightning]

That's an interesting link - although I must admit to not reading all the legislative dimensions! The points they make are that it's not necessarily overnight parking/camping per se that's the problem (eg in the Lomond area), you have to look at the whole picture including drinking parties that cause a lot of antisocial behaviour etc that may not even involve camping.

They also call for much better roadside infrastructure/facilities, that they say would be fully expected in most European countries. That's an interesting point I think. What causes the worst visual impact and intrusion, is it campervans in laybys and other roadside spaces, or the road itself and the traffic on it, which will exist in any case? But if you provide better facilities, will that increase demand for motorised access to National Parks etc - and if so, is that necessarily a bad thing and how can that increased demand be monetised for further investment?

Lots of food for thought anyway.

It seems to be that wild camping is becoming increasingly popular. I think many more people may take up this lifestyle after reassessing their life and travel priorities following the Covid lockdown. Also Vanlife is now very heavily promoted on social media. This combined with many full timers and retirees being forced to return to the U.K. by post Brexit Schengen time limits, couples with house prices young people cannot and will not ever afford making van dwelling an appealing alternative.
The U.K. may just not big enough to comfortably accommodate everybody doing this no matter how careful we are.

 

[Lightning]

Officials deal with more than 200 people wild camping in Lake District

Police and national park staff catch people breaking coronavirus lockdown rules

www.theguardian.com

 

[T6 CFO]

Officials deal with more than 200 people wild camping in Lake District

Police and national park staff catch people breaking coronavirus lockdown rules

www.theguardian.com

That’s shocking but sadly not a surprise.

I agree with your post above as well.

Very concerned that it’s going to get harder to use the Cali as we would like.

It’s not difficult, leave it at least as clean as when you arrived and contribute to the local economy and we would be welcome. I know I’m stating the obvious.


Mike

 

[Lightning]

I think we may be reaching the end of the road for wild camping in the U.K.

Highland communities in despair as 'dirty camping' spirals out of control

Tensions have increased between locals and campers along the North Coast 500 route as freedom-seeking staycationers camp wherever they can and leave

www.pressandjournal.co.uk

I’be been wandering around south of Calais for few days, there are a lot of 2m height restrictions on car parks and beach roads and no campervan signs around here. Many of the Park4night spots are closed off too. There are thousands of motorhomes roaming around too.

 

[Karlos]

We are going up to Scotland in a few weeks, staying well away from the NC 500 and hope each night to find either a smallish camp site or a place to stop away from the road and not upsetting anyone. We were in Somerset and and Cornwall a week ago, whilst out cycling we saw a guy in an old bay window parked in a corn field which must be asking for trouble unless he either had permission or it was his field.

Are you on your way back to blighty Lightning?

 

[Lightning]

Are you on your way back to blighty Lightning?

Yes, I need to get some work done on the van before heading off again hopefully. I’m just avoiding having to quarantine in the U.K. by staying in France for a couple of weeks.

 

[kp64zl]

Has anyone used this website to find camping spots?

Campspace. Discover micro campsites nearby.

www.homecamper.com

 

[Dave Wickham]

Unfortunately we responsible wild campers pay the price for the moronic behavior of a few - but getting larger. I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush but these people are often those in VW conversions (apologies to those conversion owners who behave responsibly)!! Seriously some of these people are barely devolved from apes - and it seems to be predominantly an English trait. You don't see these baboons in many EU countries!! I am a campervanner and don't like being put in the same bracket as those who behave this way!

 

[kp64zl]

Unfortunately we responsible wild campers pay the price for the moronic behavior of a few - but getting larger. I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush but these people are often those in VW conversions (apologies to those conversion owners who behave responsibly)!! Seriously some of these people are barely devolved from apes - and it seems to be predominantly an English trait. You don't see these baboons in many EU countries!! I am a campervanner and don't like being put in the same bracket as those who behave this way!

Absolutely -- I've wild camped for many years without any trouble - kept low key and left no trace. Mostly in small tent behind hedge before I got my van. Much less inclined to camp off site this year due to sensitivities around covid & ruining it for the future. Would be good if we had 'aires' or authorised simple spots for overnight stays like in some other European countries. Profusion of white motorhomes probably doesn't help as they are so instantly recognisable

 

[Karlos]

As well as stealth camping we have stayed on service stations in Europe, we always ask if its ok even if the truckers are staying there and always try to buy something.

 

[devon_matt]

More trouble being caused by wild campers - now on Dartmoor!

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/dartmoor-national-park-uses-emergency-4396188

probably caused by a minority of selfish people who then ruin it for everyone

 

[BeagleMum]

More trouble being caused by wild campers - now on Dartmoor!

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/dartmoor-national-park-uses-emergency-4396188

probably caused by a minority of selfish people who then ruin it for everyone

The appalling behaviour of mindless morons are ruining the countryside for everyone. Goodness knows what squalor they live in at home.

 

[WelshGas]

The appalling behaviour of mindless morons are ruining the countryside for everyone. Goodness knows what squalor they live in at home.

I think we have some idea, unfortunately.

 

[Elly Swanson]

More trouble being caused by wild campers - now on Dartmoor!

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/dartmoor-national-park-uses-emergency-4396188

probably caused by a minority of selfish people who then ruin it for everyone

Real “wild camping” is still allowed. The article states:

The only type of camping allowed on specific parts of Dartmoor is backpack camping; a back-to-basics overnight stay of one or two nights, carrying your tent and equipment in a rucksack, with zero impact on the environment.​

​

Well, that’s the actual description of wild camping. People calling anything else they do as “wild” are having a laugh. It’s about time the term “off grid” came in to everyday parlance for a better description. Stopping over somewhere In a campervan, or even car, is hardly wild!

I’m so pleased Devon has seen sense and not discriminated against real wild campers.

 

[Elly Swanson]

Absolutely -- I've wild camped for many years without any trouble - kept low key and left no trace. Mostly in small tent behind hedge before I got my van. Much less inclined to camp off site this year due to sensitivities around covid & ruining it for the future. Would be good if we had 'aires' or authorised simple spots for overnight stays like in some other European countries. Profusion of white motorhomes probably doesn't help as they are so instantly recognisable

As are campervans, unless you throw a scrim net over them and don’t use lights or anything that makes a noise, like the fridge or water pump!

 

[Elly Swanson]

If you’re a campervanner and want to wild camp, stop somewhere where you can park overnight but not sleep (there’s plenty of them, especially around the coast or in fishing areas) and go for a walk with a tent, bivvy or hammock. Find a nice remote spot and kip down for the night. Stay for a night or two, keep low key and leave no trace. That’s wild camping.

 

[Elly Swanson]

The appalling behaviour of mindless morons are ruining the countryside for everyone. Goodness knows what squalor they live in at home.

Don’t assume they’re all scumbags who live in filthy houses. Many of these are people Who lead regular clean lives, but for whatever reason think that normal morals and ethics don’t count when out in the countryside or at the coast.

I can only speak for the UK, but there is a real disjunct between town/city and country and many don’t seem too bothered, or don’t understand their impact on the environment or nature.

We need to get back in touch with our roots. Our education system would be a good place to start. We live in a place where kids don’t even go out to play anymore and when bad things happen you can just press a reset button or reboot and you can try again!

 

[T6 CFO]

I can only hope that once the current rush to the countryside stops that this will stop.
If it does not then serious time and effort needs to be made to ID the culprits and very publicly prosecute them.
I suspect many doing this are not the sort who will relish being publicly outed.




Mike

 

[Jodalo]

I can only hope that once the current rush to the countryside stops that this will stop.
If it does not then serious time and effort needs to be made to ID the culprits and very publicly prosecute them.
I suspect many doing this are not the sort who will relish being publicly outed.




Mike

Prosecute them for what? I understand that some of these campers cause horrendous litter problems of all sorts but I’m struggling to think of a ‘crime’ that has been committed. May be some local bye-laws that have been contravened but councils have no money to pursue them en mass. Trespass is not a criminal offence so would need to be pursued privately. On top of that where is the staff with the knowledge and ability to gather proper evidence coming from? I think there is zero chance of any culprit being publicly brought to book, unfortunately.

 

[T6 CFO]

Prosecute them for what? I understand that some of these campers cause horrendous litter problems of all sorts but I’m struggling to think of a ‘crime’ that has been committed. May be some local bye-laws that have been contravened but councils have no money to pursue them en mass. Trespass is not a criminal offence so would need to be pursued privately. On top of that where is the staff with the knowledge and ability to gather proper evidence coming from? I think there is zero chance of any culprit being publicly brought to book, unfortunately.

Firstly as stated I hope the problem will stop.
Are you suggesting that if it doesn’t no action is taken?
What they may or may not be prosecuted for is of no importance. Publicly Identifying a few culprits will be sufficient to deter the vast majority and in todays digital world that would not be difficult.

Banning everyone for a short period is fine in the first instance but in the long term we cannot be in a situation where everyone is banned due to the actions of a few.

Byelaws | Dartmoor

_______________

www.dartmoor.gov.uk

“4 Litter
Throwing down, dropping or depositing litter in, into or from any place in the open air to which the public are entitled or permitted to have access and leaving anything which may lead to defacement of the place by litter (£400).
(S.87 Environmental Protection Act 1990)”



Mike

 

[Jodalo]

Firstly as stated I hope the problem will stop.
Are you suggesting that if it doesn’t no action is taken?
What they may or may not be prosecuted for is of no importance. Publicly Identifying a few culprits will be sufficient to deter the vast majority and in todays digital world that would not be difficult.

Banning everyone for a short period is fine in the first instance but in the long term we cannot be in a situation where everyone is banned due to the actions of a few.

Byelaws | Dartmoor

_______________

www.dartmoor.gov.uk

“4 Litter
Throwing down, dropping or depositing litter in, into or from any place in the open air to which the public are entitled or permitted to have access and leaving anything which may lead to defacement of the place by litter (£400).
(S.87 Environmental Protection Act 1990)”



Mike

I don’t think you have properly understood my post. I am looking at it in a pragmatic way. Unless you can actually prove any offences you are wasting your time. How will you publicly identify a few culprits? Who is going to do that and how? The people we are talking about are not going to patiently wait while somebody (in an official capacity) acts. Anybody trying to do it unofficially by videoing them is likely to get a good pasting.They will just move on somewhere else to pollute. As an example, look at ‘fly tipping’, there have been a few prosecutions over the years but it is extremely difficult to obtain proper evidence to pursue and It is costing councils millions of pounds to clear up.
Unfortunately there will always be people who have no respect for the countryside (or anywhere else) they will always spoil it for others because they don’t give a s**t. I am not saying take no action but there is very little that can be done apart from trying to educate and highlight the problem. (Good luck with that).
Lastly, it doesn’t help that police have been decimated and local councils have pared down staff to the bare minimum to save money.

 

[Jodalo]

I have, perhaps a somewhat optimistic belief, that those who cause the mess don’t set out to cause a mess. They camp away from home, whether wild camping in the traditional sense or car camp for free, to enjoy the sense of freedom. And that aspect, as campers ourselves, should be encouraged.

But something happens to change their good intent for them to act in an unacceptable way. Perhaps their tent wasn’t up to the job and got damaged, and somehow they morally justified their actions by blaming the environment for ruining their hoped for experience. Or maybe they hadn’t planned for the mess by not bringing a rubbish sack. Or maybe they drank too much the night before, and felt unwell the next morning.

None of the above is an excuse, but a possible reason.

But instead of spouting a desire to see punishment meted out to those responsible, let’s look at it a different way.

In the hills outside Bergen at popular camping spots the local authority leave well stocked piles of firewood. This is to stop campers causing damage to trees when foraging for firewood.

What could our local authorities do reduce the chance of nuisance campers?

- Composting toilets in camping areas.
- Bins at every lay-by (and regularly emptied)
- local volunteers to give a welcoming chat to campers

What else?

Let us please work on the positive, not the negative. We won’t solve all problems but we might just reduce the number of problems.

That is a great example of the type of lateral thinking that is needed to prevent this type of behaviour. I think it would take time but it sounds promising.

 

[Elly Swanson]

Firstly as stated I hope the problem will stop.
Are you suggesting that if it doesn’t no action is taken?
What they may or may not be prosecuted for is of no importance. Publicly Identifying a few culprits will be sufficient to deter the vast majority and in todays digital world that would not be difficult.

Banning everyone for a short period is fine in the first instance but in the long term we cannot be in a situation where everyone is banned due to the actions of a few.

Byelaws | Dartmoor

_______________

www.dartmoor.gov.uk

“4 Litter
Throwing down, dropping or depositing litter in, into or from any place in the open air to which the public are entitled or permitted to have access and leaving anything which may lead to defacement of the place by litter (£400).
(S.87 Environmental Protection Act 1990)”



Mike

This is all very well and it’s great that we have laws and byelaws. The problem is we have no one to police or regulate it. The people who realise they’re defacing and vandalising the countryside know that.

For many in the UK the countryside and coast is “over there”. It’s a place that you “go to”. It’s not near their street or in their back yard and they feel no connection to it. To me that’s the main problem and the only way to change that is by education (informal and formal, old and young). We need to find ways to engage and connect people. To give them a sense of “ownership”, belonging and responsibility. I live in an East Midlands City and some years ago all the youth clubs closed (virtually overnight) and all the assets were sold off cheap or left to degrade. It was tragic!

 

[Elly Swanson]

That is a great example of the type of lateral thinking that is needed to prevent this type of behaviour. I think it would take time but it sounds promising.

Time, money and the will to do it. At the start of lockdown there was hope that we would emerge connected, with a new understanding and empathy for others and the environment. There would be a new normal. Well there is. Unfortunately it‘s a worse version of the old normal. “I’m alright Jack” is almost a mantra to be heralded!