Wild Camping

[T6 CFO]

I have, perhaps a somewhat optimistic belief, that those who cause the mess don’t set out to cause a mess. They camp away from home, whether wild camping in the traditional sense or car camp for free, to enjoy the sense of freedom. And that aspect, as campers ourselves, should be encouraged.

But something happens to change their good intent for them to act in an unacceptable way. Perhaps their tent wasn’t up to the job and got damaged, and somehow they morally justified their actions by blaming the environment for ruining their hoped for experience. Or maybe they hadn’t planned for the mess by not bringing a rubbish sack. Or maybe they drank too much the night before, and felt unwell the next morning.

None of the above is an excuse, but a possible reason.

But instead of spouting a desire to see punishment meted out to those responsible, let’s look at it a different way.

In the hills outside Bergen at popular camping spots the local authority leave well stocked piles of firewood. This is to stop campers causing damage to trees when foraging for firewood.

What could our local authorities do reduce the chance of nuisance campers?

- Composting toilets in camping areas.
- Bins at every lay-by (and regularly emptied)
- local volunteers to give a welcoming chat to campers

What else?

Let us please work on the positive, not the negative. We won’t solve all problems but we might just reduce the number of problems.

I agree. Nothing wrong with education.

Clearly that’s the sort of world we want to live in. Let’s strive for it.

In the meantime there is nothing wrong for those that abuse facilities to be aware that there are consequences to their actions.

Personal responsibility is something that appears to have disappeared and it’s very easy to make excuses. There weren’t enough bins etc etc. If you carried it there you are capable of carrying it away.

We can’t keep clamouring for our local authorities to do something about it without taking responsibility ourselves.

I am not at all in the camp of more legislation or enforcement in general, on the contrary the public need to take more responsibility rather than relying on authorities.

Should everyone under all circumstances confront the abusers?Clearly not.

There are though circumstances where people need to have the error of their ways pointed out to them.

I don’t see that my original comments were spouting a desire to meet out punishment.


Mike

 

[T6 CFO]

It is ‘mete’ not ‘meet’.

My comments were not directed at you in particular, but the general sway of the thread that punishment can resolve the matter of ‘fly camping’.

I am well aware that the schooling I had (Dartington Hall School) encouraged free thinking and personal responsibility through activities like camping on Dartmoor as a young teenager.

Not everyone had those experiences or education, but learn of the great outdoors from Bear Grylls et al and quite laudably want to try it out for themselves. When it goes wrong shaming and a hefty fine is the last thing to consider if you want to educate how it should be done. A wet weekend helping to build a footpath in the Brecon Beacons would do far more good.

Thank you for correcting my English no doubt as a benefit of attending Dartington Hall.

You are presuming that those causing the mess are from the inner city with no experience of the great outdoors.

I am not, they are more likely to be from schools such as Dartington Hall and called Henrietta or Oliver. The fines would not bother them at all but the publicity might.





Mike

 

[Jodalo]

Oh dear....tumbleweed, distant church bell ringing, stray dog laying in midday sun etc....

 

[GrannyJen]

I seriously fail to understand why anyone disrespects the countryside.

For me it is not a "new thing" .... I encountered it 60 years ago.

Neither do I see it as an "educational thing" .... My schooling was Cormont secondary modern in Brixton, Woodvale Childrens home in Norwood and Stockwell manor comprehensive in Stockwell but respecting the countryside came naturally to me. Indeed I can say from the age of 11 it was only being with nature, loving and respecting it that kept me sane.

It is not a "background" thing ... I have cleared up the mess from the very privileged and well off, and watched with amazement as I helped kids from disadvantaged backgrounds enjoy an outdoor experience and so often saw the love and respect they would show for the outdoors.

Perhaps it is just natural selection, take 100 people and 2 will disrespect their habitat, and when the numbers go into the thousands and hundreds of thousands then the damage becomes intolerable and impossible to hide from.

Neither do I have an answer. Naming and shaming as a practice I find abhorrent, in this age of social media it is just too easy to cast aspersion, have judgement without trial and jury and ruin someone's life in an instant just by "getting it wrong".

 

[T6 CFO]

I seriously fail to understand why anyone disrespects the countryside.

For me it is not a "new thing" .... I encountered it 60 years ago.

Neither do I see it as an "educational thing" .... My schooling was Cormont secondary modern in Brixton, Woodvale Childrens home in Norwood and Stockwell manor comprehensive in Stockwell but respecting the countryside came naturally to me. Indeed I can say from the age of 11 it was only being with nature, loving and respecting it that kept me sane.

It is not a "background" thing ... I have cleared up the mess from the very privileged and well off, and watched with amazement as I helped kids from disadvantaged backgrounds enjoy an outdoor experience and so often saw the love and respect they would show for the outdoors.

Perhaps it is just natural selection, take 100 people and 2 will disrespect their habitat, and when the numbers go into the thousands and hundreds of thousands then the damage becomes intolerable and impossible to hide from.

Neither do I have an answer. Naming and shaming as a practice I find abhorrent, in this age of social media it is just too easy to cast aspersion, have judgement without trial and jury and ruin someone's life in an instant just by "getting it wrong".

I agree with your post, especially about trial by social media. There are countless examples where this has caused disproportionate harm and we don’t need to add to the list.

There does though need to be an option if the situation continues after the ban period.

One of these options is a clear indication that prosecutions will follow for those who fail to get the message.


Mike

 

[Jodalo]

I agree with your post, especially about trial by social media. There are countless examples where this has caused disproportionate harm and we don’t need to add to the list.

There does though need to be an option if the situation continues after the ban period.

One of these options is a clear indication that prosecutions will follow for those who fail to get the message.


Mike

Hey Mike,
I thought you were all for ‘publicly identifying the culprits’, ‘which shouldn’t be too difficult in this digital world’, a few posts back. I take it you meant by posting on social media? Make up your mind.
On your last point I refer you to my previous post, who is going to enforce it? It’s an impossible task with the resources available.

 

[GrannyJen]

Sainthood is hard to achieve. Theresa May made her confession of the naughtiest thing she’d ever done to be running through a cornfield: soon after that confession she was found to be in contempt of parliament, a far naughtier act.

We have all done things we shouldn’t have done. My introduction to crime was at the age of about four, nicking pick ‘n’ mix sweets from Woolworths (my mother made me take them back and apologise which only taught me not to show my mum the spoils of my crime to her next time).

As I grew older my naughtiness evolved. And as a teenager I did things I’m ashamed of too this day. Perhaps no great environmental crimes, but I’ve lost at least one plastic Sainsbury’s carrier bag to the wind while on a mountainside.

Nature or nurture or a bit of both I know not. But I’m not going to be naming and shaming someone who’s first activity after months of lockdown is to camp out and abuse the environment.

It has been a tough time for all, and we will all react in different ways as house arrest is relaxed.

No - it is not an excuse: emergency aside there can be no excuse. But reason it may be (and a reason can both be acceptable and unacceptable).

I'm not to sure where sainthood comes into it.

We are discussing "wild" camping and the despoiling of the countryside by a few.

Even after months of lockdown there really is no need to leave your rubbish behind for others to clean up. My local beach, normally quiet even on a summer bank holiday, has been busier than I have ever seen it for the last few weeks. The litter bins normally cope but simply cannot with the huge increase in visitors, so some responsible local citizens have put out extra wheelie bins and a local restaurant has placed a big skip at one of the few car parks that allow beachfront access. It has worked very well generally, although the bins, even with increased capacity, have barely coped.

However there really is no excuse for what I picked up a few days ago, half a dozen empty lager bottles thrown into a bush together with all sorts of plastic detritus, close to a bench which was itself close to a bin. I really do not know where the attitude comes from or the mindset so best I can do is shut up, suck it up and pick it up.

 

[T6 CFO]

Hey Mike,
I thought you were all for ‘publicly identifying the culprits’, ‘which shouldn’t be too difficult in this digital world’, a few posts back. I take it you meant by posting on social media? Make up your mind.
On your last point I refer you to my previous post, who is going to enforce it? It’s an impossible task with the resources available.

This for clarity is what I posted. I can’t help how you choose to interpret it.

“I can only hope that once the current rush to the countryside stops that this will stop.
If it does not then serious time and effort needs to be made to ID the culprits and very publicly prosecute them.
I suspect many doing this are not the sort who will relish being publicly outed”.



Your response to this was that it was all a bit difficult.

Shall we not bother then?


Because people live and breathe social media does not mean I do. I would not dream of posting someones picture or details.

I live in a world where you firstly try to prevent a problem by education or a quiet word, if that fails you make it clear it is not acceptable and if that doesn’t work you use prosecution as an option.

If the consequences of that prosecution were disproportionate then you might take a different course. Caution etc.
Obviously any action would depend on the level of offence. As well as the bye laws, depositing litter, criminal damage is often caused. So no lack of powers or alternatives of prosecution.

To prosecute you gather evidence and in todays digital world that is easier than it once was. Once you have sufficient evidence you then prosecute as a deterrent to others.

I repeat this is a last resort but it must be an option.

I am well aware of the lack of resources and the authorities themselves are dismayed by the amount being used to clear up the mess.

There comes a point when the best use of resources is often to prevent the offence.

I accept that prosecution and it’s effect as a deterrent are arguable points. I suggested it on this occasion as it is my best guess that the idiots that do this will not like an appearance in court and the subsequent publicity. If you disagree with this, fine.






Mike

 

[Jodalo]

Hi Mike,
Yeah I’m referring to your post #96 which is how I interpreted my response. Not the one you are referring to. Anyway, it is all a bit difficult really isn’t it? That’s why it continues to be a problem. You seem to be continually missing my point about WHO? is going to gather all this evidence and HOW? is it going to be recorded and presented? In theory it sounds so simple to gather evidence to a sufficient level to prosecute an offence, in practice it is not. There is no way local councils are going to get involved in court cases which cost £1000’s to prosecute.
Shall we not bother then, you ask? I’ve already stated that education is one way that may help but I am sceptical about how successful that would be. If I sound cynical about the situation, it is because I am. We will still be talking about this for years to come because it is easier and cheaper to sweep it under the carpet and just send a team of council workers to clear up the mess.

 

[T6 CFO]

Hi Mike,
Yeah I’m referring to your post #96 which is how I interpreted my response. Not the one you are referring to. Anyway, it is all a bit difficult really isn’t it? That’s why it continues to be a problem. You seem to be continually missing my point about WHO? is going to gather all this evidence and HOW? is it going to be recorded and presented? In theory it sounds so simple to gather evidence to a sufficient level to prosecute an offence, in practice it is not. There is no way local councils are going to get involved in court cases which cost £1000’s to prosecute.
Shall we not bother then, you ask? I’ve already stated that education is one way that may help but I am sceptical about how successful that would be. If I sound cynical about the situation, it is because I am. We will still be talking about this for years to come because it is easier and cheaper to sweep it under the carpet and just send a team of council workers to clear up the mess.

OK let’s accept you thought I meant use social media. I didn’t. I trust you accept that with the advent of technology and digital media getting successful criminal convictions is simplified.

I agree it would be difficult to get the right authorities to act but if they did it really wouldn’t be that difficult. You and I both know how easy it is with the right resources.

As I stated in my first post and subsequently, hopefully we won’t be talking about it as publicity will highlight the problem and peer pressure will shame the offenders. That is one of the reasons for having prosecution as an option as it will give the subject publicity.

As for the will to act, that’s a different matter. However, it’s astonishing how quickly resources can be found and action taken with the right political pressure.

It’s far to soon to give up and just accept as too difficult.




Mike

 

[Jodalo]

OK let’s accept you thought I meant use social media. I didn’t. I trust you accept that with the advent of technology and digital media getting successful criminal convictions is simplified.

I agree it would be difficult to get the right authorities to act but if they did it really wouldn’t be that difficult. You and I both know how easy it is with the right resources.

As I stated in my first post and subsequently, hopefully we won’t be talking about it as publicity will highlight the problem and peer pressure will shame the offenders. That is one of the reasons for having prosecution as an option as it will give the subject publicity.

As for the will to act, that’s a different matter. However, it’s astonishing how quickly resources can be found and action taken with the right political pressure.

It’s far to soon to give up and just accept as too difficult.




Mike

We’re going round in circles here Mike. We haven’t got the resources and are not likely to have for the foreseeable future. I’ve really got nothing else to add, so good luck with it all.
England 92-4 OMG

 

[Amarillo]

Fines issued in crackdown on 'wild camping' - BBC News

Penalty notices of up to £70 are issued to people staying in car parks overnight.

www.bbc.com

How does parking in a lay-by or car park cause access problems for emergency services?

 

[WelshGas]

Fines issued in crackdown on 'wild camping' - BBC News

Penalty notices of up to £70 are issued to people staying in car parks overnight.

www.bbc.com

How does parking in a lay-by or car park cause access problems for emergency services?

Definition of a Lay-By.

Lay-bys on narrow roads still allow 2 cars to pass on the carriageway, but when you get large motorhomes etc: parking, or camper vans, not within the markings it can be difficult for HGV sized vehicles to pass or proceed as they are then used as passing places if vacant.

Many small Coastal car parks are gravel with access to the Beach which Emergency services eg: Coast Gard/Ambulance use. However the car parks are gravel and access to the beach depends on considerate parking. However, the get crammed and people park wherever. They are NOT designed for large vehicles eg: Motorhomes. But despite signage the inconsiderate outweigh the considerate.

 

[Velma's Dad]

If emergency vehicles do ever have any access problem I'd expect that would happen on a busy bank hol when the beach car parks are rammed with all kinds of cars and vans, not by the odd few MHs or campervans overnighting.

Similarly with overnighting in a lay-by - in most cases it causes no problems at all, provided common sense is applied and you don't cause an obvious obstruction. After all, lay-by overnighting by HGVs is widely tolerated across the country, to allow drivers to take their breaks and stick within the tacho rules.

I'm not saying 'casual parking' by MHs and campervans isn't becoming a problem in some areas. But few local authorities seem to have done anything constructive like setting up Aire-type facilities or simple municipal-run sites, in places where great whites (and dare I say, Californias) will be less physically and visually intrusive.

 

[WelshGas]

If emergency vehicles do ever have any access problem I'd expect that would happen on a busy bank hol when the beach car parks are rammed with all kinds of cars and vans, not by the odd few MHs or campervans overnighting.

Similarly with overnighting in a lay-by - in most cases it causes no problems at all, provided common sense is applied and you don't cause an obvious obstruction. After all, lay-by overnighting by HGVs is widely tolerated across the country, to allow drivers to take their breaks and stick within the tacho rules.

I'm not saying 'casual parking' by MHs and campervans isn't becoming a problem in some areas. But few local authorities seem to have done anything constructive like setting up Aire-type facilities or simple municipal-run sites, in places where great whites (and dare I say, Californias) will be less physically and visually intrusive.

Depends on the size of the car park. Lay-bys on A roads are fine for HGVs or equivalent, on country roads not always so.

 

[Elly Swanson]

I think you are obliged to stop and rest if you are tired and you can't keep awake whilst driving so could appeal if sleeping in the cab.

 

[Jodalo]

I think you are obliged to stop and rest if you are tired and you can't keep awake whilst driving so could appeal if sleeping in the cab.

“Yes officer, I always get into my sleeping bag and nightcap when having a comfort break, even in the cab.” Lol

 

[Velma's Dad]

“Yes officer, I always get into my sleeping bag and nightcap when having a comfort break, even in the cab.” Lol

LOL indeed, given that there is no statutory offence committed, per se, by sleeping in a vehicle. Provided you are not causing an obstruction or other road traffic offence, and not contravening a specific local byelaw or Traffic Regulation Order, you can do whatever you like in your vehicle - play whist, watch Netflix, snuggle up in bed (but probably not with a too-large glass of single malt as you might thereby risk being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle). If you are trespassing on private land (including council land) the landowner can require you to move on, but that's not a police matter.

 

[Jodalo]

LOL indeed, given that there is no statutory offence committed, per se, by sleeping in a vehicle. Provided you are not causing an obstruction or other road traffic offence, and not contravening a specific local byelaw or Traffic Regulation Order, you can do whatever you like in your vehicle - play whist, watch Netflix, snuggle up in bed (but probably not with a too-large glass of single malt as you might thereby risk being drunk in charge of a motor vehicle). If you are trespassing on private land (including council land) the landowner can require you to move on, but that's not a police matter.

Indeed LOL

 

[westfalia]

Whilst i was doing the rounds through the vineyards today
i came across an english big white, i was disgusted at the choice
of where they thought they could Wild Camp.

So seeing that they were from blighty, i donned the appropriate attire -

- and then gave them some tips on better places to stay for the sunset
and wineries that you can stay very cheaply.


I'm sure they'll be having a great time.
It was my deed for the day.

 

[Amarillo]

We had been planning to overnight in the Dôl Idris Car Park (start for Minffordd Path of Cader Idris). But given the apparent grumpiness of the Welsh constabulary I decided to splash out £5 for the campsite next door.

Just Ben and me. Wow, it’s so easy with just two - plus Meg.

 

[Elly Swanson]

I’m with you. My main purpose in having a Cali is the ability to be spontaneous. I don’t won’t to have to organise everything and book in advance. There are times when that’s fine but I crave for the ability to wing it, however that may be.


Mike

We do a lot of festivals so have to plan for those or miss out on tickets. It’s weird this year as they’ve all been carried over to next, which means we’re even more in advance.

 

[Jodalo]

Another fine example of disrespecting the countryside; Beachy Head this morning, BBQ ‘branding’ of the grass. If you look closely under the seat, the offending article dumped. Hope they enjoyed their raw chicken. Can’t be definite it was campers but suspiciously close to large car park where overnighters frequent. And looking at the size of the bbq it’s too big for a hiker! Morons!

 

[GrannyJen]

Another fine example of disrespecting the countryside; Beachy Head this morning, BBQ ‘branding’ of the grass. If you look closely under the seat, the offending article dumped. Hope they enjoyed their raw chicken. Can’t be definite it was campers but suspiciously close to large car park where overnighters frequent. And looking at the size of the bbq it’s too big for a hiker! Morons!View attachment 64307

That grass is so dry. Morons indeed. The great wild fire of Saddleworth last year started with a BBQ at Marsden.
There was a big beach party 200 yards from our house on Saturday, lots of fireworks set off, loads of debris landing on the local greensward.

 

[Lightning]

Another fine example of disrespecting the countryside; Beachy Head this morning, BBQ ‘branding’ of the grass. If you look closely under the seat, the offending article dumped. Hope they enjoyed their raw chicken. Can’t be definite it was campers but suspiciously close to large car park where overnighters frequent. And looking at the size of the bbq it’s too big for a hiker! Morons!View attachment 64307

It’s more likely to have been left by a family who drove there is their Vauxhall’s zafira slept in their house that night.