Winter Tyres choice and rotation

[B J G]

Even on a front wheel drive the better tread/ grip should always be on the back. Surprisingly there are many tyre fitters that don’t know this!

Regarding chains, I am wondering about some for occasional use in the Cairngorms…… any advice anyone? Or do the roads just get cleared anyway?

Chains can only be used on snow covered roads, not on clear tarmac. You could find that you are fitting them followed by removal repeatedly on one round trip.
Tyres are a better option with chains for severe snow conditions as a backup.

 

[Calimili]

what do you do with your 50% used winter tyres ??
throw them away ??

My 4 winter tires cost 600€ in total and last, up to 4mm, four years. If I were to keep them up to the min legal requirement of 1,6 they would last 2 years more using them in summer. At 6 years I'd be driving old tires who would have become less grippy and more hard, but let's ignore that for now. So 600€ for 6years, it's 100€ a year. Throwing them away at 4mm , i.e. after 4 years, I would be throwing away 200€, i.e 100€ for each of the two years up to 6 years or 1,6mm whichever I reach first.
If I were to drive them in summer instead, they would cost me 1L per 100km, so is the extra fuel consumption winter tyres have above summer tyres. Instead of doing (9.5l/100km) 30mpg I would be doing (10.5l/100km) 27mpg. I drive 10,000km in summer, or 6250mi.
So I would need 100 liter more fuel at 2€ a liter, 200€ extra. The summer tyres usage cost for the 10.000km would also be around 100€ same as the winter tyres so we could ignore that.
Therefore by not throwing the 4mm winter tyres but uing them in summer instead I would end up throwing away 200€ extra fuel and driving 10,000km in summer with reduce grip performance and reduced braking power.
So to answer your question, yes I throw them away , most likely sell them to somebody that doesn't care.

 

[markusschork]

Where would you sell them? I’ve just switched to CrossClimate2 and have a set of 4 Bridgestone Turanza and don’t fancy the hassle of changing and storing

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Where would you sell them? I’ve just switched to CrossClimate2 and have a set of 4 Bridgestone Turanza and don’t fancy the hassle of changing and storing

EBay or FB Marketplace

 

[Aubisque]

3PMSF rated All Seasons are now so good (in some cases beating dedicated winter tyres in snow traction and summer tyres in the wet) that you'd need a pretty good reason to keep swapping tyres on a camper-van that will encounter many surfaces in all seasons.

 

[bosshogg]

Hello all,
I've done a search on winter tyres and there seems to be more questions than answers.
There is even one link to a demo on indoor ski slope 4x4 compared to 4x2 winter and summer etc. (that I can not access btw)
Then clearly tyres are your point of contact and much more important than 4x4 ... both is that much better
Getting moving on a slope is one issue but stopping in control is MORE important.
I live in the French alpes and have been using winter / summer tyre rotation on multiple cars, twingo / clio sport/ espace 4 and now a cali T6 2019 4x4 DGS 198
Then my advice would be ....
1. get winter tyres if you're going to spend any significant time in or near snow .. chains are a life saver ... but invariably they get fitted when it's too late
1.1 mixed season - Michelin cross-climate are a good alternative if your an occasional visitor
2. tyre depth for winter >> tyre tread depth for summer I would say 4mm min for winter (2mm for summer)
3. keep used winter tyres (<4mm) for use in summer months
4. I noticed my new tyres (Michelin Agilis) have 8mm of tread impressive compared to my clio which has 6mm when new
5. Get a good brand (Michelin/Continental/Hankook etc.) ... compare with the cost of driving off the road ONE time !!
6. GET FOUR tyres ..... think about stopping, not starting ... I have a spare set of wheels for each car!!
7. Wheel rotation ..... generally I only buy TWO new tyres each year, the part worn tyres go on the back and new ones on the front ... HOWEVER ... with a van... it's not the same beast as a twingo.... at nearly 3 tons you have to focus on stopping stopping stopping before that stone wall or corner or .... THEN .... I am rethinking.... Is it better to have the new tyres on the back.... it's pretty alarming when the back wants to over-take the front and with the 4x4 the back will still push you up that hill ...... ANY COMMENTS ???
8. Tyre pressure ..... generally stay with normal pressure ~3.7 bars ..... you can drop air on the side of the road if you where is difficulty .. I never did that.
9. BTW, it's now the LAW to have winter tyres in the alpes in the winter.... previously it was strongly advised and only enforced when the roads where clearly very bad.

Interesting post and thread, thanks for sharing these insights.
I’m wondering on a couple of points:
We had a close escape as we approached the top of the mountain at Arc 1800 -2000 a few years back in our previous bus a T32 with ABT upgrade (wide ABT alloys and those fancy red brake callipers etc) Rain lower down mountain quickly became 6 inches of snow higher up!
I passed the mandatory “snow chains only sign beyond this point” on the basis we had just fitted brand new winter tyres for the trip.We passed a fair few

Hello all,
I've done a search on winter tyres and there seems to be more questions than answers.
There is even one link to a demo on indoor ski slope 4x4 compared to 4x2 winter and summer etc. (that I can not access btw)
Then clearly tyres are your point of contact and much more important than 4x4 ... both is that much better
Getting moving on a slope is one issue but stopping in control is MORE important.
I live in the French alpes and have been using winter / summer tyre rotation on multiple cars, twingo / clio sport/ espace 4 and now a cali T6 2019 4x4 DGS 198
Then my advice would be ....
1. get winter tyres if you're going to spend any significant time in or near snow .. chains are a life saver ... but invariably they get fitted when it's too late
1.1 mixed season - Michelin cross-climate are a good alternative if your an occasional visitor
2. tyre depth for winter >> tyre tread depth for summer I would say 4mm min for winter (2mm for summer)
3. keep used winter tyres (<4mm) for use in summer months
4. I noticed my new tyres (Michelin Agilis) have 8mm of tread impressive compared to my clio which has 6mm when new
5. Get a good brand (Michelin/Continental/Hankook etc.) ... compare with the cost of driving off the road ONE time !!
6. GET FOUR tyres ..... think about stopping, not starting ... I have a spare set of wheels for each car!!
7. Wheel rotation ..... generally I only buy TWO new tyres each year, the part worn tyres go on the back and new ones on the front ... HOWEVER ... with a van... it's not the same beast as a twingo.... at nearly 3 tons you have to focus on stopping stopping stopping before that stone wall or corner or .... THEN .... I am rethinking.... Is it better to have the new tyres on the back.... it's pretty alarming when the back wants to over-take the front and with the 4x4 the back will still push you up that hill ...... ANY COMMENTS ???
8. Tyre pressure ..... generally stay with normal pressure ~3.7 bars ..... you can drop air on the side of the road if you where is difficulty .. I never did that.
9. BTW, it's now the LAW to have winter tyres in the alpes in the winter.... previously it was strongly advised and only enforced when the roads where clearly very bad.

Hello all,
I've done a search on winter tyres and there seems to be more questions than answers.
There is even one link to a demo on indoor ski slope 4x4 compared to 4x2 winter and summer etc. (that I can not access btw)
Then clearly tyres are your point of contact and much more important than 4x4 ... both is that much better
Getting moving on a slope is one issue but stopping in control is MORE important.
I live in the French alpes and have been using winter / summer tyre rotation on multiple cars, twingo / clio sport/ espace 4 and now a cali T6 2019 4x4 DGS 198
Then my advice would be ....
1. get winter tyres if you're going to spend any significant time in or near snow .. chains are a life saver ... but invariably they get fitted when it's too late
1.1 mixed season - Michelin cross-climate are a good alternative if your an occasional visitor
2. tyre depth for winter >> tyre tread depth for summer I would say 4mm min for winter (2mm for summer)
3. keep used winter tyres (<4mm) for use in summer months
4. I noticed my new tyres (Michelin Agilis) have 8mm of tread impressive compared to my clio which has 6mm when new
5. Get a good brand (Michelin/Continental/Hankook etc.) ... compare with the cost of driving off the road ONE time !!
6. GET FOUR tyres ..... think about stopping, not starting ... I have a spare set of wheels for each car!!
7. Wheel rotation ..... generally I only buy TWO new tyres each year, the part worn tyres go on the back and new ones on the front ... HOWEVER ... with a van... it's not the same beast as a twingo.... at nearly 3 tons you have to focus on stopping stopping stopping before that stone wall or corner or .... THEN .... I am rethinking.... Is it better to have the new tyres on the back.... it's pretty alarming when the back wants to over-take the front and with the 4x4 the back will still push you up that hill ...... ANY COMMENTS ???
8. Tyre pressure ..... generally stay with normal pressure ~3.7 bars ..... you can drop air on the side of the road if you where is difficulty .. I never did that.
9. BTW, it's now the LAW to have winter tyres in the alpes in the winter.... previously it was strongly advised and only enforced when the roads where clearly very bad.

Interesting post and thanks for sharing this information.

I’ve a few thoughts/queries if there’s any further advice ref driving in the alps:

1. I’m thinking of getting a set of winter tyres, previously I’ve also referred to them as snow tyres - is there a difference between winter and snow tyres or have i some how created these categories in my mind???
When I think of snow tyres I’m hoping that I can buy something that means you don’t need to fit chains and can legally travel on the high roads where I’ve seen signs that state you must have chains beyond this point??
2. I was thinking it makes sense to have the winter tyres fitted onto a 2nd set of alloys for ease?
3. can you have a wider set of wheels for winter?? Our bus is a California T6 4Motion.
4. I do have a set of “VW snow socks” purchased years ago for our previous bus a T32 ABT. Wondering if anyone has heard of these and if they where credible alternative to chains or a gimmick to be left in the garage?

Cheers for any further information,

 

[ClivesT6california]

Interesting post and thread, thanks for sharing these insights.
I’m wondering on a couple of points:
We had a close escape as we approached the top of the mountain at Arc 1800 -2000 a few years back in our previous bus a T32 with ABT upgrade (wide ABT alloys and those fancy red brake callipers etc) Rain lower down mountain quickly became 6 inches of snow higher up!
I passed the mandatory “snow chains only sign beyond this point” on the basis we had just fitted brand new winter tyres for the trip.We passed a fair few


Interesting post and thanks for sharing this information.

I’ve a few thoughts/queries if there’s any further advice ref driving in the alps:

1. I’m thinking of getting a set of winter tyres, previously I’ve also referred to them as snow tyres - is there a difference between winter and snow tyres or have i some how created these categories in my mind???
When I think of snow tyres I’m hoping that I can buy something that means you don’t need to fit chains and can legally travel on the high roads where I’ve seen signs that state you must have chains beyond this point??
2. I was thinking it makes sense to have the winter tyres fitted onto a 2nd set of alloys for ease?
3. can you have a wider set of wheels for winter?? Our bus is a California T6 4Motion.
4. I do have a set of “VW snow socks” purchased years ago for our previous bus a T32 ABT. Wondering if anyone has heard of these and if they where credible alternative to chains or a gimmick to be left in the garage?

Cheers for any further information,

Firstly tyres are the most critical feature of control & safety so always ensure a good tread depth. When selecting tyres it is necessary to consider all road conditions - dry, standing water, ice, snow & mud and legal requirements.
Using snow chains are generally a legal requirement and would obviously only be applicable to some snow conditions.
After living in France & Swiss I got used to the necessity of replacing summer tyres with winter tyres (in Swiss, if you have an accident in winter using summer tyres you are deemed at fault).
However after living in the US I became very impressed with the ability of All Season tyres, which are standard there.
All season tyres now available in Europe which can out perform many summer & winter tyres, having a high silica content and deep treads with sipes (as demonstrated by the 3 mountain symbol). I now use them in preference to changing wheels with all of inconvenience and find that they give the highest performance in all road conditions.

 

[Calimili]

Firstly tyres are the most critical feature of control & safety so always ensure a good tread depth. When selecting tyres it is necessary to consider all road conditions - dry, standing water, ice, snow & mud and legal requirements.
Using snow chains are generally a legal requirement and would obviously only be applicable to some snow conditions.
After living in France & Swiss I got used to the necessity of replacing summer tyres with winter tyres (in Swiss, if you have an accident in winter using summer tyres you are deemed at fault).
However after living in the US I became very impressed with the ability of All Season tyres, which are standard there.
All season tyres now available in Europe which can out perform many summer & winter tyres, having a high silica content and deep treads with sipes (as demonstrated by the 3 mountain symbol). I now use them in preference to changing wheels with all of inconvenience and find that they give the highest performance in all road conditions.

That's great, so you also like +wayne1965xxxx have found tests in which All Season tyres perform better in winter than winter tyres. Could you provide a link to theses tests and also let us know the brand model of these very good all season tyres ?

 

[wayne1965xxxx]

My 4 winter tires cost 600€ in total and last, up to 4mm, four years. If I were to keep them up to the min legal requirement of 1,6 they would last 2 years more using them in summer. At 6 years I'd be driving old tires who would have become less grippy and more hard, but let's ignore that for now. So 600€ for 6years, it's 100€ a year. Throwing them away at 4mm , i.e. after 4 years, I would be throwing away 200€, i.e 100€ for each of the two years up to 6 years or 1,6mm whichever I reach first.
If I were to drive them in summer instead, they would cost me 1L per 100km, so is the extra fuel consumption winter tyres have above summer tyres. Instead of doing (9.5l/100km) 30mpg I would be doing (10.5l/100km) 27mpg. I drive 10,000km in summer, or 6250mi.
So I would need 100 liter more fuel at 2€ a liter, 200€ extra. The summer tyres usage cost for the 10.000km would also be around 100€ same as the winter tyres so we could ignore that.
Therefore by not throwing the 4mm winter tyres but uing them in summer instead I would end up throwing away 200€ extra fuel and driving 10,000km in summer with reduce grip performance and reduced braking power.
So to answer your question, yes I throw them away , most likely sell them to somebody that doesn't care.

Hello Caimili,
Thank you for taking the time to reply in so much detail
I never did that calculation... or even thought about doing it. It may work for you but my situation is somewhat different. I am new to 3 ton vans and anything 4motion .... so my approach ... based on >20yrs running cars .. maybe off the mark. Add to that... my driving is largely up and down hills with hairpins (almost constant braking, turning, accelerating) rather than rolling A roads or motorways. I never had any set of wheels last 6yrs, in fact I recon 2 winters to be a good result and 16K Km is an OK mileage for me.... I hope to get more for the van because the tread new is 8mm compared to 6mm on my cars plus the commercial tyres cost so much more. Like 200 plus fitting per corner for Michelins or Continentals.
But your last throw away line (pun pun) "most likely sell them to somebody that doesn't care" but you say they are NOT safe to use in summer or in winter, how can you sell them ??
I guess we could open up the conversation and talk about retread tyres ??

 

[wayne1965xxxx]

That's great, so you also like +wayne1965xxxx have found tests in which All Season tyres perform better in winter than winter tyres. Could you provide a link to theses tests and also let us know the brand model of these very good all season tyres ?

I never said I found any tests showing all season tyres out perform winter tyres in winter conditions. My experience is to the contrary. Winter tyres are better in winter. BUT. I would say Michelin cross-climate are very good in snow ... they are the only all season tyre I've used...

 

[Calimili]

I never said I found any tests showing all season tyres out perform winter tyres in winter conditions. My experience is to the contrary. Winter tyres are better in winter. BUT. I would say Michelin cross-climate are very good in snow ... they are the only all season tyre I've used...

i do apologise, it wasn't you i should have referred to on my reply to +ClivesT6california but @Aubisque instead

 

[Calimili]

Hello Caimili,
Thank you for taking the time to reply in so much detail
I never did that calculation... or even thought about doing it. It may work for you but my situation is somewhat different. I am new to 3 ton vans and anything 4motion .... so my approach ... based on >20yrs running cars .. maybe off the mark. Add to that... my driving is largely up and down hills with hairpins (almost constant braking, turning, accelerating) rather than rolling A roads or motorways. I never had any set of wheels last 6yrs, in fact I recon 2 winters to be a good result and 16K Km is an OK mileage for me.... I hope to get more for the van because the tread new is 8mm compared to 6mm on my cars plus the commercial tyres cost so much more. Like 200 plus fitting per corner for Michelins or Continentals.
But your last throw away line (pun pun) "most likely sell them to somebody that doesn't care" but you say they are NOT safe to use in summer or in winter, how can you sell them ??
I guess we could open up the conversation and talk about retread tyres ??

Yes usage and tyre wear is different for each of us. If I sell the used 4mm winter tyres it may well be an ethical question, but if I leave them at the shop to dispose of them, they will sell them themselves. They are anyway still road legal and plenty of commercial vans running same size that just care about saving...
Having said that, I've never kept a vehicle long enough that I needed to replace the winter tyres....
The main issue I had with your initial post is the advice of running winter tyres in summer. That I cannot agree, for a purely safety concern. The local plumber or deliver van driving in 50km/h zone all day long might get away with it. But i don't want here people driving on holiday in summer in hot weather with a van fully loaded and their kids on the back at 130km/h on winter tyres... and when they do need to break hard they stop 10m longer then if they were on summer tyres. There's no reason to run winter tyres in summer, not even an economical one.
There are some good All Season, but even the best, while covering 80% of the usage, they perform poorer at the extremities, i.e. very hot or very cold/snow than summer and winter tyres respectively.
I appreciate it's a PITA swapping tyres twice a year, on the other hand such an exercise will ensure rims don't get stuck "glued" to the hubs (think changing a wheel due to a flat) and it allows to rotate the tyres to ensure even thread wear.

 

[ClivesT6california]

It is usual in France / Swiss / Germany to put winter tyres onto new steel rims, with the garage storing them and coming out to do the change overs. I adopted the 2 sets of wheel approach in the UK, but with several cars storage at home and driving several times to the tyre garage with waiting time became an issue.
I am unsure how legal snow socks are when roads or regions declare the mandatory use of snow chains. I regard these are more of a novelty.
There are many tyre tests available on-line, all of which require interpretation and apply to specific test conditions - beware of tests selling a particular product or range. My interpretation of tyres tests is supported by the award of the 3 peak symbols to the best all-season tyres & my experience of working in Swiss & living in France for 20 yrs.
Basic difference with tyres is that most German cars are sold with summer tyres where the German approach is to change to winter tyres each year (good for tyre makers!), whereas in the UK we generally don't change tyres. However, the weather is becoming more variable in the UK. Also, be aware that using a winter tyre on a hot (>8C) winter's day a winter tyre is less ineffective than a summer tyre which will perform better.
Winter tyres have 2 main characteristics - the tread pattern being more aggressive with lots of sipes & the rubber changing to a silica compound which enhances grip at <8C. Manufactures have now managed to combine these characteristics into an all-weather / 4-season tyre giving the best all round performance. Yes, some summer / winter tyres may nominally out-perform 4-season in certain specific (but not all) conditions, but many do not, and outside of these specific conditions will perform worse! As long as you buy 4-season tyres with the 3-peak symbol you can be assured that you are meeting legal standards for a winter tyre. Both Good Year & Michelin ranges include excellent 4 season tyres. I think the general principle is expensive will out-perform cheap!
At the end of the day if one wants to invest double in wheels/tyres plus have the trouble of change overs & storage then go ahead. Personally, I find that since the last few years 4-season tyres offer year-round advantages for all conditions (including ice & snow) without unnecessary expense & time wasting. Certainly, I find no disadvantage in driving with 3-peak 4-season tyres.
..and, if conditions are exceptionally poor, then one needs to drive within these conditions in all events.

 

[ClivesT6california]

correction ..(less effective, not less ineffective)
However, all this depends on where you are. Living in the Jura or Vallis it is common to use spiked tyres during winter if one is constantly in severe conditions - these will out-perform winter tyres. Also, if driving in deep snow or mud having grip on the side walls can also help.

 

[ClivesT6california]

correction ..(less effective, not less ineffective)
However, all this depends on where you are. Living in the Jura or Vallis it is common to use spiked tyres during winter if one is constantly in severe conditions - these will out-perform winter tyres. Also, if driving in deep snow or mud having grip on the side walls can also help.

One other point to watch is the speed rating. Winter tyres may have a lower speed rating than summer or all season tyres.

 

[Aubisque]

i do apologise, it wasn't you i should have referred to on my reply to +ClivesT6california but @Aubisque instead

sorry - only just seen this. Here's a link https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Auto-Bild-SUV-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm

 

[Calimili]

sorry - only just seen this. Here's a link https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Auto-Bild-SUV-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm

Thank you Aubisque, very interesting test indeed. Shame as they used "reference winter" and "reference summer" tyres withough specifying which model.. I couldn't match the measured results of the "reference winter tyres" with the Auto-Bild-Test https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2022-Auto-Bild-SUV-Winter-Tyre-Test.htm , which is to be expected, as they are different size tires (18" vs 19") and we don't know if they used the same vehicle or not (same weight/traction). Certainly not in the same conditions as the two set of tests, the All season tyre group vs the Winter Tyres group where not done simultaneously...
It is really a pity, because it would have been more useful if we knew which winter tyre it was, a cheap one or the best, or in the middle ?
What I mean is, I could imagine the best and very expensive All Season tyres, like Michelin, be better in winter/snow than cheap or middle of the range winter tyres. But what about the best All season' vs the best winter' ?

 

[Aubisque]

Yes, it's not ideal. There must be a reason not to specify the exact tyre, but I'd assume to qualify as 'reference' for a test it would be mid pack.

If you look at other tests e.g. here, it is clear that the best All Seasons capability in winter is getting better and better (with obvious trade-offs) to the point where I suspect they would be the most appropriate tyre for most people looking for good winter (by which I mean 3PMSF rated) tyre you can leave on all year. Gone are the days when to get a decent winter performance you'd probably need to run two sets.

 

[Tarquers]

Here is another comparison between all season and full winter. Leave you to draw your own conclusions, but a very good comparison in my opinion.

 

[Calimili]

Here is another comparison between all season and full winter. Leave you to draw your own conclusions, but a very good comparison in my opinion.

Thank you. I do remain happy with my choice of the Bridg. Blizzak LM005 in 235/55 17".
IF I was still living in England I'd definitely go for the Mich. Cross Climate All Season.

Probably we all suffer from geographical bias. People living in the region with hard winter like Germany/Poland will prefer the 2 sets Winter/summer tyres. People in the UK, more specificaly towards the south, wild mild winters have quite righlty a bias towards preferring (good quality) all Seasons.

When I was still living in London, it was just summer tyres all year round. They were the best choice apart from 2 days every 3 years.

 

[Tarquers]

Thank you. I do remain happy with my choice of the Bridg. Blizzak LM005 in 235/55 17".
IF I was still living in England I'd definitely go for the Mich. Cross Climate All Season.

Probably we all suffer from geographical bias. People living in the region with hard winter like Germany/Poland will prefer the 2 sets Winter/summer tyres. People in the UK, more specificaly towards the south, wild mild winters have quite righlty a bias towards preferring (good quality) all Seasons.

When I was still living in London, it was just summer tyres all year round. They were the best choice apart from 2 days every 3 years.

I am happy with running all Michelin all seasons, find they perform well on the road, but also are good enough for winter use, we already have snow in the mountains and had no issues. I am sure that there is an extra 5% performance from winters but we get mild weather in winter when I am sure I get better performance from all seasons. Problem is it is an expensive experiment and almost impossible to get real world back to back experience personally.

 

[pluc99]

Arrggghhh I was questioning the “more tread on the rear” thing!

The tires with less tread will loose grip before the others do. When you lose grip on the rear wheels, the car will have the tendency to spin around. Imagine it happening whilst driving downhill into a curve. Now imagine oncoming traffic or a steep ravine. The rule about mounting the better tires on the rear holds true for any car regardless of fwd/rwd/awd and it's not a question of preference or opinion.

 

[sidepod]

The tires with less tread will loose grip before the others do. When you lose grip on the rear wheels, the car will have the tendency to spin around. Imagine it happening whilst driving downhill into a curve. Now imagine oncoming traffic or a steep ravine. The rule about mounting the better tires on the rear holds true for any car regardless of fwd/rwd/awd and it's not a question of preference or opinion.

I’d rather catch it with a dab of oppo and retain steering/braking.

 

[Calimili]

When you lose grip on the rear wheels, the car will have the tendency to spin around. Imagine it happening whilst driving downhill into a curve. Now imagine oncoming traffic or a steep ravine.

Just asking, why would it be a better alternative to sacrifice grip on the front? If you were going to come down a hill in a curve, and lose grip on the front first you'd go straight either head on into incoming traffic or in the wall depending if on right/left bend. And especially on FWD, where the front tyres have the greater stress of turning/braking and accelerating, I'd rather have the best tyres there, personally.
I'd prefer to try to control the difficult to lose heavy rear than being without any control losing the front....

 

[Aubisque]

Think the theory is that you would quickly adjust to drive within the limits of reduced front end grip, it's pretty obvious and involves gradual understeer etc. Lower rear end grip reveals itself all of a sudden and no warning as such, with higher oversteer consequences (a spin) in most scenarios.

Like all advice it's a massive generalisation to guide most people. It's very easy to consider a scenario where it no longer applies, e.g. the hill scenario above or if you are able to predict and catch a rear slide with a dab of oppo