Winter Tyres choice and rotation

[vbk1975]

Think the theory is that you would quickly adjust to drive within the limits of reduced front end grip, it's pretty obvious and involves gradual understeer etc. Lower rear end grip reveals itself all of a sudden and no warning as such, with higher oversteer consequences (a spin) in most scenarios.

Like all advice it's a massive generalisation to guide most people. It's very easy to consider a scenario where it no longer applies, e.g. the hill scenario above or if you are able to predict and catch a rear slide with a dab of oppo

This is an interesting read

Kumho Tire | All-Ways. Go With You

One of the world's largest tire manufacturers with an innovative approach to product development, market expansion, technical progression, and environmental awareness.

kumhotyre.co.uk

 

[ardm17]

This is an interesting read

Kumho Tire | All-Ways. Go With You

One of the world's largest tire manufacturers with an innovative approach to product development, market expansion, technical progression, and environmental awareness.

kumhotyre.co.uk

I'm confused by this bit in the article:

If a vehicle is understeering, (sliding wide in a corner), assuming maximum front tyre grip has not been reached or exceeded, adding steering angle to the wheels will result in the vehicle negotiating the corner safely.

If the vehicle is understeering then maximum front tyre grip HAS been exceeded, surely???

 

[chockswahay]

This thread has piqued my (previously zero) interest in winter of all season tyres.

Putting to one side the front/back debate …………… we live in Fife, Scotland and do intend to spend more time in the Highlands although we have reason to drive South a few times a year too.

I’m not interested in pure performance but I am interested in safety, comfort and quietness. Can anyone offer up real world views based on their own experience re the ‘8 wheels or 4 wheels’ debate please? (this question has been generically answered but mostly be those of you who live in the milder South…….. any views from North of the border?)

Our van has 17 inch Turanzas at the moment, they are prob (estimate) 60 to 70 % worn but I gather they are not particularly good either summer or winter. My dilemma is do I buy a set of cheap steel wheels and go for pure winter tyres or fit all seasons now.

 

[andyinluton]

The tires with less tread will loose grip before the others do.

The depth of tread on a dry road makes naff all difference to the level of grip available - thats why racing cars have slick tyres. Down to the minimum tread depth the rubber is the same throughout the thickness so offers the same grip whether you have 2mm or 10mm of tread.

In the wet it does make a difference & that difference is how much water can be dispersed before the tyre aquaplanes, on say a very wet motorway its the front tyres clearing the water & the rears following in the dryer line so need less tread.

If the depth of tread on your tyres is that different that you can tell that one end has more grip than the other it's time to change your tyres.

 

[Kernowboy]

I’ll be putting the ‘winter’ wheels on this w/end ready for a couple of trips down to the Alps. I say ‘winter’ but they are actually all season tyres, 215 width on 17inch Davenport’s to replace the 255 width 18 inch Palmerston’s that are on the van now which aren’t compatible with normal chains. I had the 17s with my previous 2Wd van and thus the treads are at 4.5mm on 2 and 6.5mm on the other 2.
I’m not too fussed about the front vs rear grip debate but am not so sure about the difference in tread, albeit small, as they will now be going on a 4 Motion. My theory is that the greater tread should go the front so that they will always be rotating slightly slower and thus shouldn’t cause any problems with the 4WD system ie. it won’t incorrectly thinking they are slipping. They are too good to change yet.
Sensible plan, or am I missing something?

 

[andyinluton]

the treads are at 4.5mm on 2 and 6.5mm on the other 2.
I’m not too fussed about the front vs rear grip debate but am not so sure about the difference in tread, albeit small, as they will now be going on a 4 Motion. My theory is that the greater tread should go the front so that they will always be rotating slightly slower and thus shouldn’t cause any problems with the 4WD system ie.

You are over thinking it, filling the water tank & putting bits & pieces in the boot, passengers in seats etc will affect the diameter of the wheel by more than 2mm.

 

[chockswahay]

I’ll be putting the ‘winter’ wheels on this w/end ready for a couple of trips down to the Alps. I say ‘winter’ but they are actually all season tyres, 215 width on 17inch Davenport’s to replace the 255 width 18 inch Palmerston’s that are on the van now which aren’t compatible with normal chains. I had the 17s with my previous 2Wd van and thus the treads are at 4.5mm on 2 and 6.5mm on the other 2.
I’m not too fussed about the front vs rear grip debate but am not so sure about the difference in tread, albeit small, as they will now be going on a 4 Motion. My theory is that the greater tread should go the front so that they will always be rotating slightly slower and thus shouldn’t cause any problems with the 4WD system ie. it won’t incorrectly thinking they are slipping. They are too good to change yet.
Sensible plan, or am I missing something?

Sounds like a cunning plan I would take issue with you about the tread on the front…..the evidence is out there (seen on this thread) and your van will not have a scoobie as to wether it’s 4wd or not when you start aquaplaning in the wet at any speed

….. just sayin

 

[Kernowboy]

You are over thinking it, filling the water tank & putting bits & pieces in the boot, passengers in seats etc will affect the diameter of the wheel by more than 2mm.

I think that’s probably really valid, just seems to be the better way to go if all else is equal.

 

[Kernowboy]

Sounds like a cunning plan I would take issue with you about the tread on the front…..the evidence is out there (seen on this thread) and your van will not have a scoobie as to wether it’s 4wd or not when you start aquaplaning in the wet at any speed

….. just sayin

Also valid, I’ve always gone with best tyres on rear as seems to be the most consistent advice. It’s just any implications to the 4wd system that I don’t fully understand.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Also valid, I’ve always gone with best tyres on rear as seems to be the most consistent advice. It’s just any implications to the 4wd system that I don’t fully understand.

The 4Motion system is actually termed "All-wheel Drive" rather than 4WD and has complex Haldex-based trickery that is pretty much beyond the ken of anyone but an automotive engineer and you can regard it as "drive and forget". No special techniques or knowledge required and it certainly won't mind vey much from a wear-and-tear point of view if your part-worn tyres are on the front or rear axle.

"Best-tyres-on-rear" is consistently advised by tyre and car manufacturers because the average driver is more likely to be able to cope with an unexpected understeer (controlled by lifting off, an instinctive response) than with oversteer (requiring non-intuitive throttle responses plus opposite lock). Some drivers who are experienced in low-grip driving might prefer an oversteer tendency and hence put the more worn tyres on the back - that's their choice.

 

[chockswahay]

The 4Motion system is actually termed "All-wheel Drive" rather than 4WD and has complex Haldex-based trickery that is pretty much beyond the ken of anyone but an automotive engineer and you can regard it as "drive and forget". No special techniques or knowledge required and it certainly won't mind vey much from a wear-and-tear point of view if your part-worn tyres are on the front or rear axle.

"Best-tyres-on-rear" is consistently advised by tyre and car manufacturers because the average driver is more likely to be able to cope with an unexpected understeer (controlled by lifting off, an instinctive response) than with oversteer (requiring non-intuitive throttle responses plus opposite lock). Some drivers who are experienced in low-grip driving might prefer an oversteer tendency and hence put the more worn tyres on the back - that's their choice.

A bit off topic but in my youf I had a 67 Beetle that was quite highly tweaked…….. my rally driving brother (who I bought it from) always said to me “what ever you do, do NOT lift off the throttle in a bend! if it starts to go then more throttle and steer into the slide”

Can’t say I fancy that now, especially in a Cali haha

 

[Velma's Dad]

A bit off topic but in my youf I had a 67 Beetle that was quite highly tweaked…….. my rally driving brother (who I bought it from) always said to me “what ever you do, do NOT lift off the throttle in a bend! if it starts to go then more throttle and steer into the slide”

Quite right. On the loose, if you lift off the sudden weight transfer onto the front axle will reduce the rear grip even more and you'll change ends very quickly.

 

[B J G]

This thread has piqued my (previously zero) interest in winter of all season tyres.

Putting to one side the front/back debate …………… we live in Fife, Scotland and do intend to spend more time in the Highlands although we have reason to drive South a few times a year too.

I’m not interested in pure performance but I am interested in safety, comfort and quietness. Can anyone offer up real world views based on their own experience re the ‘8 wheels or 4 wheels’ debate please? (this question has been generically answered but mostly be those of you who live in the milder South…….. any views from North of the border?)

Our van has 17 inch Turanzas at the moment, they are prob (estimate) 60 to 70 % worn but I gather they are not particularly good either summer or winter. My dilemma is do I buy a set of cheap steel wheels and go for pure winter tyres or fit all seasons now.

I'd go for All Season on the basis that they will handle most conditions that you will encounter.

I'd doubt that you intend to travel in the hills when Police advise to stay away.

If cost can be justified the Michelin Agilis Crossclimate is probably the best. If a 235 width is required then a 235/60/17 would be required. the 5% extra profile height isn.t a problem (I run the CrossClimate SUV tyre in that size)
Goodyear do a very similar tyre to the normal Michelin CrossClimate.