T7 teetering on the edge....

[Paul Burgess]

Hi Everyone,

I've been seriously considering swapping my year old (Dec 24) last T6.1 Ocean 204 for a T7. Principally because of the deals on the new ones (circa £10k off list) and the fact that our 6.1 has retained almost all of its value, which means a negligible cost to change. I wonder whether this is the optimum time to change, or will the T7's always be offered with big discounts and therefore depreciate way more quickly (and end up cheaper) than 6.1's?

I borrowed one today and these are my observations:

General:

• Hybrid not worth the extra several thousand pounds for me especially now with pence per mile incoming. Also lots of issues.
• Petrol version dealer says no low down torque so doesn't really suit the vehicle and the overnight heater is noisy in operation vs diesel one.
• Battery charging issues apparently resolved from 2026 MY production (Sept onwards).
• Coast variant not worth it as by the time you add the extra things you may as well have Ocean and better future residuals. The overnight heater only runs for 2 hours I've been told and then can only be operated again (reset) by driving for 30 metres???! Totally impractical when set up on a campsite.

So for me it's going to be a 150 diesel Ocean if anything.

Positives:

• Feels roomier in the living area, maybe because of smaller kitchen and extra length.
• Seats are much comfier front and rear
• The kitchen aspect I quite like as I much prefer the pull-out drawer fridge and would never use two burners on the hob. Cutlery drawer and socket much ore conveniently placed.
• Several USBC charging ports which is handy vs 6.1
• Wardrobe space better used as shelves rather than just a big space. Never used our hanging rail!
• Driving position felt more comfortable / car like. Reminds me of the Marco Polo I had in 2021.
• Better ride quality and generally a bit quieter.
• Looks have grown on me and makes my 6.1 look boxy and dated by comparison (although I still love it!)
• Dash and infotainment seemed to work well. Like the heated windscreen and steering wheel which I don't currently have, plus keyless entry.
• Having two sliding opening doors is a fantastic upgrade and will allow for much more enjoyable Summer experiences.
• My panda mattress topper for downstairs fits lovely, just turned up a bit more on one side (but I sleep alone down there, maybe not so good for 2).
• Much better without the handbrake in the way and seemed more room to move around.
• The pop top seemed darker than my 6.1 although dealer doesn't think they're any different.
• Very nice interior lighting, much more modern than 6.1.
• Windows are darker tint than 6.1 which affords more privacy

Negatives:

• Seemed punchy enough but I can imagine full laden it would feel slow vs my current 204.
• The stop/start system was terrible! A noticeable delay when taking foot off the brake to get moving. Can be disabled in the infotainment but not as easy as 6.1.
• The floor seems more 'industrial' than the 6.1, huge rails for the seats. Would definitely need a brandrup type carpet to make it more luxurious looking.
• The folding of two separate seats to make the bed is a bit more of a faff. And I realised unlike now, because the rear seats are shaped you have to use the hard backed mattress supplied and then the panda topper on top of that. This will use most of the boot space behind the seats! I put the panda topper directly on the rear bench seat in the 6.1 and as its basically flat it works really well.
• The window blinds aren't as fitted as the 6.1 so I can imagine more light downstairs in the morning.
• Storage is very much lacking vs 6.1 as has been well documented. But I'm prepared to find ingenious solutions to overcome this and there are lots of little cubby holes etc.
• Not sure how I'll get on with the table in the boot rather than the one that's stored by the kitchen cupboard currently. However for light snacks and cups of tea I think there is ample surfaces to use without needing a table so it would only be for main dining which in summer would always be outside.

Overall I think the vehicle should have built upon the 6.1 strengths but instead is somewhat compromised in some key areas. That being said I went to see a Burstner B66 C644, a Panama P/57 (based on Ford Tourneo), and a Benimar Benivan and still prefer the Cali for its all round drivability and quality. Whether the T7 ends up on the drive remains to be seen, but any thoughts welcome from anyone that's made the switch and has real life comparisons to make.

 

[stoobthealien]

I don't believe you are correct about the heater on the coast but it sounds like it's a small part of the decision anyway on your list!

 

[Ch1pbutty]

I would go for the hybrid.

 

[RetroRed5]

You have a very nice California already, and given it is one of the last off the line of the T6.1 era, it is very desirable to many, and for good reason.

If you are considering swapping it for a shiny new T7, I'd perhaps consider hiring one for a good few days and do some campervan stuff in it before making your final decision.

 

[Paul Burgess]

I don't believe you are correct about the heater on the coast but it sounds like it's a small part of the decision anyway on your list!

Well that's interesting as I did wonder but that's what Breeze Poole told me? There's an £1800 option on the Coast but it does have some sort of heater as standard and that's what they said. If you can explain I'd be grateful.

 

[Paul Burgess]

I would go for the hybrid.

I'm sure it suits some but at £8k extra to buy over diesel plus the extra pence per mile in a couple of years it's a very expensive option for me.

 

[Paul Burgess]

You have a very nice California already, and given it is one of the last off the line of the T6.1 era, it is very desirable to many, and for good reason.

If you are considering swapping it for a shiny new T7, I'd perhaps consider hiring one for a good few days and do some campervan stuff in it before making your final decision.

Yes that's probably a very good idea to be fair. That's why I was asking for some real world examples. Although for me I also use as my main daily driver and for that the T7 is definitely preferable.

 

[2into1]

I think the idea of a Cali (over say the excellent Burstner c644) is it's suitability for daily use and ability to replace a car in the household. For me that means lots of short journeys and cold starts....which is exactly the pattern that kills modern diesels. If I were to jump to a T7 for my everyday use, it would be petrol or the hybrid. The minimal depreciation of campervans is because they live for 30 years....by which time diesel might appear as modern as a steam train (slightly exaggerated but you get my point).

 

[sticky1]

My experience with the low down torque on the petrol is different to what you’ve been told.
If anything it’s a bit too much torque, you have to careful on wet or loose ground.
I tried the diesel and the petrol felt more lively to me. The hybrid wasn’t available to try at the time, but I suspect it’s even better. The petrol should feel quicker than your current diesel.
Having had and fitted diesel heaters before there is no noticeable difference in noise between the two.
I suspect VW are pushing to get the new version out into the market and discounts will dry up once there are more happy owners. I imagine the battery issues will have put lots of people off.
I use 5cm Duvalay and once folded up it’s not too bad on the back. View attachment IMG_6985.jpeg

 

[WelshGas]

I'm sure it suits some but at £8k extra to buy over diesel plus the extra pence per mile in a couple of years it's a very expensive option for me.

You get 4Motion, and better fuel economy compared with the IC vehicles . So you will be paying less Fuel Duty/mile at present and once the Hybrid EV Duty starts - the same .
Also Fuel Duty is increasing.

Other advantages of the Hybrid EV, you can run the AC from the EV battery, admittedly for limited periods , but useful in Summer in the South of France.
For short journeys you can run in pure EV mode.

 

[Paul Burgess]

My experience with the low down torque on the petrol is different to what you’ve been told.
If anything it’s a bit too much torque, you have to careful on wet or loose ground.
I tried the diesel and the petrol felt more lively to me. The hybrid wasn’t available to try at the time, but I suspect it’s even better. The petrol should feel quicker than your current diesel.
Having had and fitted diesel heaters before there is no noticeable difference in noise between the two.
I suspect VW are pushing to get the new version out into the market and discounts will dry up once there are more happy owners. I imagine the battery issues will have put lots of people off.
I use 5cm Duvalay and once folded up it’s not too bad on the back. View attachment 142577

That’s incredibly helpful to know, thanks. I think I need to drive one although what would you say is your real world mpg?
Mattress sounds ok too, will try that out tomorrow at the dealers.
I’m not fussed about any of the options on Ocean model, anything you would say is a must have?

 

[DevonGuy]

I drive a T6.1 204 4 motion as my work vehicle and also have a hybrid T7. Power wise the hybrid is smoother and better, albeit it revs higher as the petrol kicks in and the sound takes me by surprise a bit still.
In terms of everyday usage, pulling away etc the hybrid is absolutely brilliant.
Add in pre-heat/cool and an average mpg at the moment of 60 plus (we charge regularly) I’m very pleased we got the hybrid. Cost wise we found the finance deal from VW favoured the hybrid at the time as the residual seemed to stand up better giving a better monthly payment.
We also tried the diesel T7 which was impressive given its lower power and very refined all things considered, but the hybrid easily won.
Petrol heater is no louder from what I can tell and stop/start is totally untouchable as the hybrid always pulls smoothly away on electric.

 

[pchmlk]

I think the idea of a Cali (over say the excellent Burstner c644) is it's suitability for daily use and ability to replace a car in the household. For me that means lots of short journeys and cold starts....which is exactly the pattern that kills modern diesels. If I were to jump to a T7 for my everyday use, it would be petrol or the hybrid. The minimal depreciation of campervans is because they live for 30 years....by which time diesel might appear as modern as a steam train (slightly exaggerated but you get my point).

Interesting thoughts on modern diesels and short journeys. Given the current ubiquity of diesels, is this really true?

 

[WelshGas]

Interesting thoughts on modern diesels and short journeys. Given the current ubiquity of diesels, is this really true?

Yes. Well documented.

AI Overview

Yes, diesel cars are problematic with short journeys because the engine and the
diesel particulate filter (DPF) may not reach their optimal operating temperatures, leading to soot build-up, reduced performance, and potential expensive repairs. The DPF requires longer, faster drives to regenerate and burn off collected soot. To avoid issues, take your diesel for a longer journey at least a few times a month to allow the DPF to clean itself.

 

[sticky1]

That’s incredibly helpful to know, thanks. I think I need to drive one although what would you say is your real world mpg?
Mattress sounds ok too, will try that out tomorrow at the dealers.
I’m not fussed about any of the options on Ocean model, anything you would say is a must have?

Mine is still very low mileage, last time I looked it was about 30 miles per gallon but I don’t take any care about fuel economy so it’s probably not reflective of a grown up driving it.
I’m really impressed by the IQ lights, they are a stand out feature. Travel Assist is surprisingly good too. I purchased a stock vehicle with the highest spec I could find but would have ordered the advanced parking pack if it had been a factory order.
I don’t have the electric sliding doors and pleased I don’t, they seem slow and power hungry.
As others have pointed out make sure you order a factory towbar it’s the only way to carry bikes on the back (the rear door is composite so cannot hold the previous bike rack model).
I’d recommend putting solar on the roof immediately and fit a Spacemate drawer, despite the complaints about storage the rear is 25% deeper than the previous model, it’s a stretch to reach to the back.

 

[stoobthealien]

Well that's interesting as I did wonder but that's what Breeze Poole told me? There's an £1800 option on the Coast but it does have some sort of heater as standard and that's what they said. If you can explain I'd be grateful.

Have a bit of a search around in the T7 part of the forum - I've ordered a beach and was asking a few people about it on there - owners have confirmed that they are able to run the heater on continuous mode overnight without any additional options specced. There is/was a huge amount of confusion about this - even at VW who changed the brochure in the Autumn from 2 heater options down to one.

 

[pchmlk]

Yes. Well documented.

AI Overview

Yes, diesel cars are problematic with short journeys because the engine and the
diesel particulate filter (DPF) may not reach their optimal operating temperatures, leading to soot build-up, reduced performance, and potential expensive repairs. The DPF requires longer, faster drives to regenerate and burn off collected soot. To avoid issues, take your diesel for a longer journey at least a few times a month to allow the DPF to clean itself.

I see. Not a killer as such, but certainly not ideal.

 

[RetroRed5]

I drive a T6.1 204 4 motion as my work vehicle and also have a hybrid T7.

2 x 4Motion Cali's, how awesome

 

[stoobthealien]

I see. Not a killer as such, but certainly not ideal.

It varies a huge amount on the vehicle and how it was designed as well. I had a diesel Jaguar E-Pace that was terrible for getting clogged, there ended up being a group litigation against Jaguar as they had repurposed an old freelander chassis which had the DPF too far away from the engine so the gasses were too cool and it clogged really easily. Prior to that I had a diesel Citroen (both were Euro 6) which never clogged and got pretty much the same use

 

[Canary]

I find my diesel T7 very smooth and has plenty of power when fully loaded infact can't say I have noticed it feeling sluggish when heading off rammed to the max.
The ID lights are brilliant and definitely worth paying for.
The heated front armchair seats are superior in every way and the car certainly drives far nicer than a T6.1 van in my opinion, but then again its not a van which is what finally attracted us to a cali finally.
Oh and one last point regarding the missing table, dont forget the hidden table that connects on the end of the work station which is great for extra space.

Out of interest was the vehicle a MY25?

We had a loan of the dealers ocean cali (my25) due to a faulty leasure battery, our is a MY75. We found a number of differences such as interior lighting missing along the roof with a button missing to operate it. Also the blinds didn't fit as well as our car where I feel they have improved on significantly within model years making the blind tight to the edges letting minimal light in.

So I would recommend test driving a 75 plate onwards as I feel a few things have been tweaked and hopefully answer some of your outstanding questions??

 

[Paul Burgess]

I would go for the hybrid.

I learned today that the hybrid attracts the luxury vehicle tax which doubles the VED vs the petrol or diesel engines for the first 5 years, can anyone confirm this? With the 1.5 p per mile coming in on top and the £8k additional purchase price I just don’t think it makes sense for me who only does about 7k miles per annum.

 

[Paul Burgess]

I don't believe you are correct about the heater on the coast but it sounds like it's a small part of the decision anyway on your list!

Thanks, I’m only repeating what I was told by Breeze Poole who sell a lot of these cars. But others have commented that it’s incorrect so I guess it must be! In any case I’ve decided to stick to the Ocean.

 

[RetroRed5]

I learned today that the hybrid attracts the luxury vehicle tax which doubles the VED vs the petrol or diesel engines for the first 5 years, can anyone confirm this? With the 1.5 p per mile coming in on top and the £8k additional purchase price I just don’t think it makes sense for me who only does about 7k miles per annum.

The extra VED (expensive/luxury car tax) will apply to all California's, regardless of whether petrol, diesel or hybrid because they all cost more than £40,000.

From 2028, the hybrid will also attract the new EVED as well at 1.5p per mile driven.

 

[Paul Burgess]

Mine is still very low mileage, last time I looked it was about 30 miles per gallon but I don’t take any care about fuel economy so it’s probably not reflective of a grown up driving it.
I’m really impressed by the IQ lights, they are a stand out feature. Travel Assist is surprisingly good too. I purchased a stock vehicle with the highest spec I could find but would have ordered the advanced parking pack if it had been a factory order.
I don’t have the electric sliding doors and pleased I don’t, they seem slow and power hungry.
As others have pointed out make sure you order a factory towbar it’s the only way to carry bikes on the back (the rear door is composite so cannot hold the previous bike rack model).
I’d recommend putting solar on the roof immediately and fit a Spacemate drawer, despite the complaints about storage the rear is 25% deeper than the previous model, it’s a stretch to reach to the back.

Petrol I think is becoming my preferred engine for the type of driving I do. The hybrid is just too much extra cost. I’m
sure there’s a tipping point financially but with the 1.5 p per mile and annual luxury car tax adding circa £300 VED plus per year, more expensive tyres, more expensive insurance, £8k extra to purchase in the first place it just doesn’t make sense for me.
I don’t ride a bike and will never use a tow bar so that would be for residual value only. However at £800 or so I can’t imagine the resale would improve any more than that.
Solar and Spacemate sounds like fab ideas. Is that permissible with the VW factory warranty?

 

[Paul Burgess]

The extra VED (expensive/luxury car tax) will apply to all California's, regardless of whether petrol, diesel or hybrid because they all cost more than £40,000.

From 2028, the hybrid will also attract the new EVED as well at 1.5p per mile driven.

I don’t think this is correct. I have a T6.1 and because it’s classed as a motor caravan (due to the kitchen) and it’s £330 per annum and no luxury tax. Again I’m only going off what Breeze VW dealer told me today. The hybrid for some reason even with a kitchen is classed as a car and not motor caravan. Maybe some T7 owners of hybrid can confirm? The quote i have for a T7 diesel has VED at £330.