DSG problems

Loz · Jul 16, 2018

I don’t think the hill hold uses the brakes like my Touareg does as we dont hav e the electric parking brake that is needed for the take over when the auto hold fails or times out.
From what I have experienced autohold is a 3 second partial clutch closure to prevent rolling back whilst you move your foot from brake to clutch.
However when we are fully loaded on a steep incline the clutch cant hold the full weight hence you need your old school handbrake start.

VW Guru · Jul 16, 2018

Loz said:
I don’t think the hill hold uses the brakes like my Touareg does as we dont hav e the electric parking brake that is needed for the take over when the auto hold fails or times out.
From what I have experienced autohold is a 3 second partial clutch closure to prevent rolling back whilst you move your foot from brake to clutch.
However when we are fully loaded on a steep incline the clutch cant hold the full weight hence you need your old school handbrake start.

Hi @Loz hill hold asist is not a partial clutch closure it’s operated though the abs system and holds on all the brakes for approx 3 seconds. Your Touareg has hill hold which is the full system only available on passenger car not Cali. The electronic park brake has nothing todo with hill hold, it’s all operated through software in the abs control unit. A partial clutch engagement would be like riding the clutch in a manual and would damage the clutch plates.

Loz · Jul 16, 2018

Vw guru said:
Hi @Loz hill hold asist is not a partial clutch closure it’s operated though the abs system and holds on all the brakes for approx 3 seconds. Your Touareg has hill hold which is the full system only available on passenger car not Cali. The electronic park brake has nothing todo with hill hold, it’s all operated through software in the abs control unit. A partial clutch engagement would be like riding the clutch in a manual and would damage the clutch plates.

Yes I reliase that hense why it only seemed to work for 3 seconds. I should have worded my post differently, it Feels like its only using the clutch.
Its something I’ve not looked into yet but mine is not using the brakes it is not positive enough.
I might test it with vcds so I can see the brake pressure reading

I did actually say auto-hold when referring to the ebrake as they work together (after 2 or so minutes of auto hold the ebrake takes over) as if the Treg throws an error the ebrake just comes on. But as you say we don’t have that.

Having had all these systems on the Touareg that holds the brakes properly what we have is not really fit for purpose.
Going to do some reading...

VW Guru · Jul 16, 2018

Loz said:
Yes I reliase that hense why it only seemed to work for 3 seconds.
Its something I’ve not looked into yet but mine is not using the brakes it is not positive enough.
I might test it with vcds so I can see the brake pressure reading

I did actually say auto-hold when referring to the ebrake as they work together (after 2 or so minutes of auto hold the ebrake takes over) as if the Treg throws an error the ebrake just comes on. But as you say we don’t have that.

Having had all these systems on the Touareg that holds the brakes properly what we have is not really fit for purpose.

The tearn not fit for purpose is thrown about far to much these days. It is an assistance system To help the vehicle take off on hills with out the extra need of a parking brake for convenience of the driver. I spend every day working on these vehicles I am fully trained in how the systems work and what is expected of them. All I am trying to do is pass on the knowledge I have to help everyone understand there vehicles and the onboard systems so everyone can enjoy there Cali the way it should be.

Loz · Jul 17, 2018

Okay, so I had a quick read, all it does is slowly release the brake pressure you have applied, it does not apply any brake pressure itself, and the vehicle has to move within 2 seconds or the pressure is gone and you roll back.

GrannyJen · Jul 17, 2018

Vw guru said:
The tearn not fit for purpose is thrown about far to much these days. It is an assistance system To help the vehicle take off on hills with out the extra need of a parking brake for convenience of the driver. I spend every day working on these vehicles I am fully trained in how the systems work and what is expected of them. All I am trying to do is pass on the knowledge I have to help everyone understand there vehicles and the onboard systems so everyone can enjoy there Cali the way it should be.

Thank you for your explanation of Hill hold.

I am not an engineer or a technical person but I do have a lot of experience of driving a lot of different vehicles, including off-road.

When I see "Hill hold" part of my off-road brain clicks in and I equate it to the hill-hold on many off road vehicles where the gradient could be extremely steep and any unintended fore or aft movement could have severe consequences.

Your explanation clarifies a lot in my mind. It is driver assistance, not a technical take-over. Clearly the OP has problems relating to the functioning of this which VW need to address under warranty but also for many the term can mean something far more of an intervention than a gentle assist and therefore the "gentle assist" could well indicate fail.

I quite agree with you about the term "fit for purpose" being thrown around too often, especially with a Cali which after all is a complex of compromises on wheels.

I appreciate your input.

T6 CFO · Jul 17, 2018

Vw guru said:
Hi @Paul Roe i worked for Ford many years ago and they have obviously come along way since there cvt gearboxes so I will take your word for it the power shift is a good box having not driven one, it’s the same set up as the DSG box just a different manufacturer. When the dsg box first arrived with vw I would have advised no one to by one as they needed teething problems sorting out. Today tho I would recommend everyone has one they are a pleasure to drive and vastly improve the performance of the vehicle over manual. I would agree with @WelshGas the issues lies with your hill hold assist not your dsg box.

Thanks for the explanation. I had no idea how the hill/hold worked but have obviously just got used to the DSG over a number of years. Our 2004 Touran was I told the first in the UK with a DSG the others having been on Golfs and others. I had the Touran for 12 years, fault free, which persuaded me to get it on the Cali.

Mike

Loz · Jul 17, 2018

So I went out and tested it with VCDS attached and took some measurements and ran some graphs.

Here are my conclusions;
1. Its not always active and you need to be on an incline, on my tests on the same incline it was only active 5 times out of 8, more often when start/stop was active.

2. It does not apply brake pressure it only holds the pressure you have generated with your last press of the brake peddle. Therefore on a steep hill if you press the peddle harder when you stop it will be able to hold vehicle better when you go to move off.

3. The hold time is very short just under 2 seconds so as long as you are quick on the throttle you will be fine, this coupled with the DSG creep as the clutch takes up, it should work just fine.

edit:
Regarding point 2. I was able to keep the vehicle stationary with brake pressure as little as 20bar but also able to press the peddle much harder up to 90bar so bearing this in mind you just need to remember to give it a good press on the brake when expecting to do a hill start.
I think we have got so used to feathering the brakes to prevent stop/start from kicking in we don't always press hard enough on the brakes, coupled with the fact that the user manual doesn't really explain what is fully going on with hill hold. But now we know...

B J G · Jul 17, 2018

My holiday home in France is on a hillside. 95% of the time I reverse down out of the gate and find that I have to be careful not to have the Cali roll back whilst waiting for my gate closer operative to get in.
This problem isn't that different to trying to reverse slowly uphill without coming to a stop and rolling back down.

I was worried about possible clutch wear and asked my local VW Dealer Technician who assured me that the DSG box does a lot of mechanical action to prevent the clutches being worn.

I now don't expect the Cali to think for me at at all times and use either the foot or handbrake rather than 'trust' the DSG and any auto aids. Handbrake prevents the delayed take off action that hill hold does.

The Cali DSG doesn't behave nearly so efficiently as previous EOS with DSG did which I assume is due to vehicle weight but that should have been programmed into the Cali operation.
I've no idea what differences there are between the EOS 6 gear DSG and the Cali 7 gear DSG.

T6 CFO · Jul 17, 2018

Loz said:
So I went out and tested it with VCDS attached and took some measurements and ran some graphs.
View attachment 35573

Here are my conclusions;
1. Its not always active and you need to be on an incline, on my tests on the same incline it was only active 5 times out of 8, more often when start/stop was active.

2. It does not apply brake pressure it only holds the pressure you have generated with your last press of the brake peddle. Therefore on a steep hill if you press the peddle harder when you stop it will be able to hold vehicle better when you go to move off.

3. The hold time is very short just under 2 seconds so as long as you are quick on the throttle you will be fine, this coupled with the DSG creep as the clutch takes up, it should work just fine.

edit:
Regarding point 2. I was able to keep the vehicle stationary with brake pressure as little as 20bar but also able to press the peddle much harder up to 90bar so bearing this in mind you just need to remember to give it a good press on the brake when expecting to do a hill start.
I think we have got so used to feathering the brakes to prevent stop/start from kicking in we don't always press hard enough on the brakes, coupled with the fact that the user manual doesn't really explain what is fully going on with hill hold. But now we know...

Good stuff @Loz. Your last point on feathering is no doubt correct. I’ve always been very light on brake wear and I am very gentle when I don’t want the stop/start to kick in.
Knowing that when I am on a steep hill I should give it a bit extra is useful to know.

Mike

BikerGran · Jul 22, 2018

I've asked this question before and got an amazing variety of answers, so I wonder if @Vw guru or someone else in this thread could give me the definitive answer.

I have a 2007 T5 with Tiptronic. It doesn't have flappy paddles, you move the selector lever to the right to use the Tiptronic. Have to say in 2 years of ownership I've never used it as I don't really understand the point (or how to use it) - I've never felt the need, apart from getting out of a muddy field where I would select 2nd in a manual vehicle, but I think you have to be already moving to go into the Tiptronic?

But my question is, is mine a DSG with Tiptronic, or an automatic gearbox with Tiptronic? I don't suppose it makes much difference to me either way but I just like to know about what I'm driving!

VW Guru · Jul 22, 2018

BikerGran said:
I've asked this question before and got an amazing variety of answers, so I wonder if @Vw guru or someone else in this thread could give me the definitive answer.

I have a 2007 T5 with Tiptronic. It doesn't have flappy paddles, you move the selector lever to the right to use the Tiptronic. Have to say in 2 years of ownership I've never used it as I don't really understand the point (or how to use it) - I've never felt the need, apart from getting out of a muddy field where I would select 2nd in a manual vehicle, but I think you have to be already moving to go into the Tiptronic?

But my question is, is mine a DSG with Tiptronic, or an automatic gearbox with Tiptronic? I don't suppose it makes much difference to me either way but I just like to know about what I'm driving!

Hi @BikerGran you will have a normal 6speed automatic gearbox made by ZF for Volkswagen.
I have always found tiptronic a waste of time on full auto boxes it can help if you want to hold a gear for a while like you say if your stuck or if your just sat in slow moving traffic you can just hold the gear you want for a smoother ride other than that there is no Real point. DSG boxes were fitted to the transporter ranges as of 2010 and the start of T5 GP or T5.1 as some people call it.

BikerGran · Jul 23, 2018

Vw guru said:
Hi @BikerGran you will have a normal 6speed automatic gearbox made by ZF for Volkswagen.
I have always found tiptronic a waste of time on full auto boxes it can help if you want to hold a gear for a while like you say if your stuck or if your just sat in slow moving traffic you can just hold the gear you want for a smoother ride other than that there is no Real point. DSG boxes were fitted to the transporter ranges as of 2010 and the start of T5 GP or T5.1 as some people call it.

Thanks for that!

2into1 · Jul 23, 2018

BikerGran said:
I've never felt the need, apart from getting out of a muddy field where I would select 2nd in a manual

I think if you manually put your auto in manual like you describe, it will still drop into 1st to start. It will hold 2nd longer than normal, but will 'override you' again if revs get to high and will change into 3rd.

BikerGran · Jul 24, 2018

2into1 said:
I think if you manually put your auto in manual like you describe, it will still drop into 1st to start. It will hold 2nd longer than normal, but will 'override you' again if revs get to high and will change into 3rd.

I wouldn't even try! It's the one occasion when I miss my old Nissan estate - it had a 'snow' button that put it straight into 2nd and held it there.

Borris · Jul 24, 2018

Do all vehicles with DSG have the Hill Hold feature? That question needs to be answered before you go looking for a fault. If yours does not then it won't be held on a hill unless you either keep you boot on the throttle sufficiently to prevent roll back or revert to the standard driving practice of applying the hand brake when stationary.

Freddy · Jul 24, 2018

I got a scare when T6 rolled. I was told by VW mechanic not to rev engine (as you might on a manual before letting clutch out on a hill) because the system doesn't like the opposing inputs of throttle and foot brake. So trust assist and take foot off brake before accelerating. It is a bit scary trusting the system if close to another vehicle or obstacle on a hill so other option is to use handbrake and accelerate as you release it.

DSG problems

Loz

VW Guru

Loz

VW Guru

Loz

GrannyJen

T6 CFO

Mike

Loz

B J G

T6 CFO

Mike

BikerGran

Growing old disgracefully

VW Guru

BikerGran

Growing old disgracefully

2into1

Née T4WFA. Now running 2006 LHD T5 SE 130 Manual

BikerGran

Growing old disgracefully

Borris

Freddy

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