2023 Ocean leaking roof fabric

[Dave Beattie 63]

First night in the rain this week and leaked from all 3 vents! I will be in touch with the dealer today and post their response

 

[RockinNRollin]

First wet trip in our MY23 this weekend and after a couple of hours sheltering in a coffee shop returned to the van to water dripping heavily along the whole left hand side of the living accommodation. My impression was that it was the seam at the bottom of the netted window that was the problem - it was heavy driving rain for several hours before we returned to the van, directly at that side of the van.
Van was on a slight incline to the rear so water had collected in the rear corner of the upstairs bed (wet mattress) down through the rear cupboard (wet clothes) and cascading off all 3 lights above the sink etc. with a good half cm of water collected in the corner of the hob (pic) - glass was closed but had pooled on top and run through the gaps.

Seemingly we are dry again now but who really knows how much got behind the kitchen paneling, ceiling lights, etc.

It really was extreme weather but even so never had it come through the seems like that in any of the multiple tents that we have used over the years. will report to VW this week as would be nervous to leave the roof up again in rain.

Out of interest, where were your zips positioned (if you can remember?). Seen a reference somewhere to suggest the zips shouldn't be at either end of the zip run. Ours got a fair bit of side-rain (albeit it was at an angle, not direct) over the weekend in lashing rain and no ingress, at least nothing I could see.

 

[RockinNRollin]

While I haven't experienced any leaking myself and said as much previously with caveat that the rain I experienced was light, I have yet to hear anyone else say their MY23 bellows were water tight.

I hasten to add the conditions I was in and the orientation of the van meant very little rain would have landed on the front of the bellows - perhaps why? I am almost dreading a "still" rainy day now . . .

 

[ArunAlec]

Can’t help with the canvas, but I had a slight leak from the top tailgate seal. Try gently pulling it away from the bodywork all along the top so It seals against the tailgate better.

Had same with mine & same solution!

 

[HIGGINS]

I am going to whisper this!

You think the new design of bellows are all made differently???Not!
:-0

They are made in bulk and fitted!
They won’t vary in quality!
They are made by a machine!

So all the vans that have been fitted with these new bellows, will leak at some point! It is inevitable!
Also, unless they rectify the problem before fitting the replacement bellow, they will also leak!

And knowing this! Why take delivery of one? Just causes a knock on affect of more problems! Also VW won’t do anything because they are still selling them!

On another note!
I think the water ingress problems have only just started! Wait until the water gets into the electrics and the roof control panel etc!
I am not knocking the Cali!
They are exceptional vehicles for what they are designed for!
But come on, be realistic!

£75-80k for a campervan that leaks in water!

I have had 2 previous Cali’s and never had this issue of water ingress!

My original input to this thread was to softly whisper, why would you take possession of a new vehicle knowing it as problems with water ingress?? Everyone to their own!

Ps: as anyone heard of roof bellow problems on Vw converted vans?

 

[andyinluton]

I am going to whisper this!

And knowing this! Why take delivery of one? Just causes a knock on affect of more problems! Also VW won’t do anything because they are still selling them!

You don't have a right to reject a new vehicle just because you've heard on the internet that there is a possibility that there may be a leaky roof.

If there is a problem it will get a new bellows, the same as a couple of people on here have already done.

Ps: as anyone heard of roof bellow problems on Vw converted vans?

Yes

30 seconds of googling will give you pages & pages of posts from other VW forums about problems with none California roofs. You don't hear about those problems on here because almost all of us have a VW roof.
Problems include:


SCA roofs closing with a gap you can still see through
Skyline Aurora roof opening on the motorway
Austop roofs - Glassfibre delaminating
Reimo - drainage problems

 

[HIGGINS]

Ah!
I thought the issues posted on this site and reported to Vw are real life factual issues! Didn’t realise that they were just made up for perusal?

Yes! You can legally reject an item if it is not fit for purpose!

 

[dspuk]

Ah!
I thought the issues posted on this site and reported to Vw are real life factual issues! Didn’t realise that they were just made up for perusal?

Yes! You can legally reject an item if it is not fit for purpose!

Hence my comment on newish members coming on here just for this issue and yelling at other members trying to help them out. Direct your ire to VW. Not to the folks here trying to give sage advice. There are three points in this reply here, ignoring the shouting, that are factually incorrect. To detail why you are wrong is a step too far on a Monday and you’ll just yell back with lots of !!!!!!!!!

It’s a royal pain you have an issue. But fix it in the right way, don’t exhume your anger here and at other members. Do it with your chosen dealer and VW Customer Service.

 

[ivan & jill]

I have booked my new Ocean in for a bellows change following the leaks from the front panel seams which I posted above. I couldn't get a date earlier than 19 September at Yeomans Exeter due to a combination of needing a courtesy vehicle, them wanting their master technician to do the work and Yeomans being rammed with work from the former Snows van centre in Plymouth. I am content with this as I hope that it allows VW to come up with a proper fix and in the meantime I have logged this warranty issue.

I also think that the leaking is because of rain getting into the netting over the windows and sitting at the bottom seams long enough for capillary action to take water through the larger stitching holes to the inside surface. I would be happy to try waterproofing the seams but I want VW to do this to avoid any warranty arguments later if it doesn't work.

I am happy to put my name forward for any group action but I think it will need hundreds of names before VW change strategy for dealing with this problem. Before I take my van in I will check with Yeomans that there is a new or altered bellows as I don't see the point in just having an identical bellows fitted for the reasons mentioned by others here.

 

[dspuk]

I have booked my new Ocean in for a bellows change following the leaks from the front panel seams which I posted above. I couldn't get a date earlier than 19 September at Yeomans Exeter due to a combination of needing a courtesy vehicle, them wanting their master technician to do the work and Yeomans being rammed with work from the former Snows van centre in Plymouth. I am content with this as I hope that it allows VW to come up with a proper fix and in the meantime I have logged this warranty issue.

I also think that the leaking is because of rain getting into the netting over the windows and sitting at the bottom seams long enough for capillary action to take water through the larger stitching holes to the inside surface. I would be happy to try waterproofing the seams but I want VW to do this to avoid any warranty arguments later if it doesn't work.

I am happy to put my name forward for any group action but I think it will need hundreds of names before VW change strategy for dealing with this problem. Before I take my van in I will check with Yeomans that there is a new or altered bellows as I don't see the point in just having an identical bellows fitted for the reasons mentioned by others here.

Cool, calm, considered and action focused.

 

[RockinNRollin]

My concern is just replacing the part on the assumption it's a manufacturing defect, as opposed to a design flaw, will just result in the same problem again. Assuming it is a design flaw (which it does sound like) then the only way the "fix" will change will be if VWCV accept there's a flaw, produce a bona fide fix and roll it out to their network. Until such time, any dealer will operate on the assumption it's a defective part and replace like for like. Rinse and repeat if you'll excuse the pun . . .

 

[dspuk]

My concern is just replacing the part on the assumption it's a manufacturing defect, as opposed to a design flaw, will just result in the same problem again. Assuming it is a design flaw (which it does sound like) then the only way the "fix" will change will be if VWCV accept there's a flaw, produce a bona fide fix and roll it out to their network. Until such time, any dealer will operate on the assumption it's a defective part and replace like for like. Rinse and repeat if you'll excuse the pun . . .

The way these issues work is the warranty team usually has a series of engineers looking at the data passed back to them for potential large issues. This data comes from the repairs that are approved or passed back to VW UK for review which then have to go back to VW DE. At Nissan it was easier and quicker as we were all UK based including design, engineering and UK HQ. At any point in time the team will have 30 - 50 things they are watching.

As soon as a trend is spotted the team will then start to investigate. The trend spotting and approval to investigate can take some time. Anywhere up to 3 months, maybe more. There is then a series of approavls that have to be made to start looking at a fix.

Once these approvals happen the engineering team (in this case, back in Germany) have to come up with a fix that is the least cost possible to the OEM. They have to work out if it is a defect in part manufacture, in fitting, or in design. Once they have worked out which it is they then have to look at a fix, either a new fitting process, new manufacturing process or new design. Again. Takes time.

They then need to fix the ones in production and the ones in the wild, again, at least cost. This is where a dealer bulletin will eventually come out that tells the dealers what to do to fix the customer ones. This can range from order a new part to seal the seams. Depends on what they have worked out what is the best in market fix, and again, which is cheapest. They will also work out if, worst case, it's a recall, or more likely a fix on complaint issue.

In the meantime you will find piecemeal approvals going through if a dealer pushes hard enough.

We had a similar issue with bumper orange peeling on the Nissan Juke, first spotted on forums. The forum admins would mail us with these issues and we had to work out which were genuine and which were trigger happy admins. For this one it started a little like this one and then got worse and worse with an avalanche of warranty claims. Eventually engineering issued a bulletin and any cars coming in got a free fix for the issue. There was a second one linked to keyless entry if memory serves right and the car "losing" the key when driving and stopping dead. Same process, came through us monitoring the forum.

Key thing I keep in mind here is to let them do their jobs. They will know, they will be on it, they will catch up eventually and all the bellows will be fixed. It's how warranty works. Refusing to accept vans on handover will not improve this process or make it go any faster. Especially if you cannot prove there is an issue on your particular van. VW will never say anything at this stage - we never would, as the amount of customers suddenly panicking causes havoc and in the end just slows things down. Go make noise, with the customer service team.

We have the old bellows and what I could say technically about this issue and the actual fix is pointless, but the above is the process and I'm pretty sure already in play.

 

[andyinluton]

Yes! You can legally reject an item if it is not fit for purpose!

Until you've taken delivery & established that your roof leaks how do you know its not fit for purpose?

Given that VW/dealers seem amenable to replace the bellows, I don't see it being a long term issue.

It would be good to get some feedback from people that have had their bellows replaced as to whether the new ones leak & if there is any discernible difference.

I saw the earlier suggestion that there is a new part number with an additional "C" in it - it would be nice to know if that is actually a revised part rather than just a colour change.

For now I would be holding off getting bellows changed until someone confirms that there has been a change, It might be as simple as a batch of bellows not getting the waterproofing treatment that it was supposed to have.

 

[RockinNRollin]

The email I had from VWCV stated there has been no change in bellows design since the introduction of the latest bellows in late 2022. That suggests there has been no design change, unless the manufacturer of the bellows itself (assuming it's made by a third party) has changed quietly.

 

[HIGGINS]

Don’t be judgmental, opinionated, assuming and disrespectful it doesn’t achieve anything?
Just be factual!

Back to the thread!
Isn’t this a case of Deja Vu?
The rusting roof issue we have put up with for many many years!

Vw haven’t rectified this, so I don’t think the water ingress will be priority!
The T7 will be!

 

[Viktorgeorge]

Don’t be judgmental, opinionated, assuming and disrespectful it doesn’t achieve anything?
Just be factual!

Back to the thread!
Isn’t this a case of Deja Vu?
The rusting roof issue we have put up with for many many years!

Vw haven’t rectified this, so I don’t think the water ingress will be priority!
The T7 will be!

I am in the unlucky position of having elevating roof seal early corrosion (separately posted), but in the lucky position (as I see it) of having a MY2023 with the previous bellows fabric. For what it is worth, if I was taking delivery now, I would try (either by delivery refusal or an early water penetration warranty claim) to get agreement to exchange the bellows to the previous material, if/whilst there are stocks remaining - just for immediate peace of mind and dryness.

I am not convinced that the new fabric is worth the hassle. Higgins has a combative turn of phrase but I like that and (as elsewhere) he makes a good point: VW probably will not resolve this quickly.

 

[Trojax]

Andy here are some pictures for you, all from outside

 

[RockinNRollin]

I doubt any dealer would action a bellows change as a warranty claim without evidence of leaking; sure, you could pay for a new bellows to be fitted but that would be a steep bill . . .

 

[andyinluton]

Andy here are some pictures for you, all from outside

Thanks
Is that the new 2 layer or old single layer?

 

[Trojax]

Thanks
Is that the new 2 layer or old single layer?

LOL sorry mine is a 2021 so old single layer

 

[Corradobrit]

Thanks
Is that the new 2 layer or old single layer?

Looks like the new double layer fabric

 

[Corradobrit]

Looks like Trojax answered and my assumption was incorrect. Can anyone post a closeup of the new fabric for comparison, inside and out.

 

[Corradobrit]

And to keep everything in one thread. 4 out 4 For Hire Oceans with new fabric are leaking.

Leaking pop tops on 2023 California Oceans

Looking for other peoples' experiences with the new double lined pop top roof (the one that is grey outside / cream inside), and any potential solutions to the problem of leaking though the seams and fabric. In the last week we've had complaints from customers on all four of our March 2023...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

 

[andyinluton]

Looks like Trojax answered and my assumption was incorrect. Can anyone post a closeup of the new fabric for comparison, inside and out.

I would but its lashing down here so don't want to put the roof up at the moment.

 

[OooOooTheMonkey]

So just speaking to Tim here at the Van Centre in regard to this we believe Volkswagen are aware of this issue.

What we can’t say that vehicles that have recently been built are 100% affected by this.

We had ordered a few bellows as stock for ongoing issues we have that Volkswagen have recalled. This is the most amount of info we have.

This post from Breeze Tom suggests VW are aware abs working on it. Surely they’ll just make the manufacturer of the bellows design a replacement? I’ll see how my MY2023 does in the rain and report back.