2023 Ocean leaking roof fabric

[Grigio Van Grigio]

They don’t have to be visible on collection?
There is enough evidence on here to confirm a problem!

Why would you pay and take possession of any new item! That you know to have history of being faulty???

Would you take possession of the vehicle if it had history of blowing an engine after 200miles??
There wouldn’t be signs on engine problems on collection!!!

I’d disagree with you. This thread started in May, two months after I ordered the Cali. At the point of picking up, there were still only a handful of people who have said they have an issue. Enough to confirm some bellows have a problem, not evidence that every Cali has the issue. How many other issues do some people have that others don’t? Certainly doesn’t confirm “a history of being faulty” here.

And with VW not yet admitting there’s an issue, you’d be left with a choice of cancelling and losing £1,000 or taking delivery and hoping there’ isn’t a fault with yours. If there is, that’s what the warranty is for.

For every model of Cali, there are issues, including, I assume, the version you have.

 

[Trojax]

So for what its worth, this is my experiences with Tents and lately Folding Campers then the VW California.

Tents used to be made from cotton canvas and when new would wick water through all the stitching holes the after a few uses everything would seal its self with no leaks. Then the manufactures started looking for lighter and faster drying materials to make tents and awning. This drive to lighter and faster drying lead them to man-made fibres "Synthetic Fibers" these allowed tents/awnings to be more water repellent, lighter and bigger. The only issue with using these materials is they don't expand or contract much. This in turn lead to very expensive tents having seal tape sewn in to all the seams to make them water tight and advice given to all tents is to set them up and get them wet. Now our bellows are basically tents and VW have moved to a much more synthetic material to make them from (progress) this has produced a very water tight ,lighter faster drying bellows with only one issue when they are stitched together a big needle is used to do this as smaller ones snap, all these little holes are where the water is leaking from on the new bellows. Holes + Water = leaks. So why is the new bellows so bad well here is my theory whoever makes the bellows for VW have not only used a synthetic material they have also used a synthetic thread to stitch them together neither of which are very good at expanding and contracting hence the water comes in for quite a while as the seams seal.

Options are using a seam seal on all the stitched lines, Using Nikwax or Fabseal on the bellows to water proof the seams or going to VW for assistance. It may well be that VW change the way the bellows are put together and add seam tape at the point of manufacture if you can wait that long and are happy to have the bellows changed .... Or just let its seal its self but that could take a while.... Remember its not the material leaking its all the holes from stitching it together.

Just my thoughts

 

[dspuk]

I’d disagree with you. This thread started in May, two months after I ordered the Cali. At the point of picking up, there were still only a handful of people who have said they have an issue. Enough to confirm some bellows have a problem, not evidence that every Cali has the issue. How many other issues do some people have that others don’t? Certainly doesn’t confirm “a history of being faulty” here.

And with VW not yet admitting there’s an issue, you’d be left with a choice of cancelling and losing £1,000 or taking delivery and hoping there’ isn’t a fault with yours. If there is, that’s what the warranty is for.

For every model of Cali, there are issues, including, I assume, the version you have.

Nice to a see a sensible reply in amongst a pile on by new/low engagement members who seem to have come here to just shout about the bellows - some of whom don’t even seem to have them.

The statistics of fact, supposition and proof seems to have been lost on their (and if they have the issue, understandable) anger. Shouting at us about what VW should do in their opinion is just not good etiquette.

Some do seem to have an issue, but not all. I’d agree with the previous point that I’d want a proper solution or understanding of the concern not just shout so loud I’d get a new part that may have not had a fix applied to it.

 

[RockinNRollin]

The one thing I still don’t understand is why the front of the bellows seems to be the sole place for leaks. Ours was absolutely pelted with rain for two days this weekend with fairly windy conditions; the back and sides didn’t let a drop through. This makes me wonder if the needle size / stitching theory is correct and it’s something else like the overlap of the seams or something

 

[.Billy Ocean.]

The one thing I still don’t understand is why the front of the bellows seems to be the sole place for leaks. Ours was absolutely pelted with rain for two days this weekend with fairly windy conditions; the back and sides didn’t let a drop through. This makes me wonder if the needle size / stitching theory is correct and it’s something else like the overlap of the seams or something

I’ve been thinking about it too, and I wonder if it’s something to do with the water pooling between the canvas layer and the mesh window, and then seeping out.

 

[Trojax]

The one thing I still don’t understand is why the front of the bellows seems to be the sole place for leaks. Ours was absolutely pelted with rain for two days this weekend with fairly windy conditions; the back and sides didn’t let a drop through. This makes me wonder if the needle size / stitching theory is correct and it’s something else like the overlap of the seams or something

Yes it was very wet and windy this weekend and I whitnessed the old 2021 v a brand-new 2023 one. If you think about the sides are near vertical so water will run off very fast, but the front is angled so the water is on it for longer as it runs off. I also had thoughts about what not all vans are affected may be its the Dealers Having all the roofs open and the weather that's around so they get wet. Bit like 2nd hand car dealers having all the tail gates open so we don't see the condensation inside the cars....

 

[Trojax]

I’ve been thinking about it too, and I wonder if it’s something to do with the water pooling between the canvas layer and the mesh window, and then seeping out.

Yep as the water would sit and seep in rather than run off, good call

 

[Corradobrit]

Some do seem to have an issue, but not all. I’d agree with the previous point that I’d want a proper solution or understanding of the concern not just shout so loud I’d get a new part that may have not had a fix applied to it.

Hard to say. The wetting conditions appear to be quite specific before a leak is initiated. Hosing the seams is not a good test. Persistent wetting over several hours => leak.

I think people who have had the water ingress do need to kick up a fuss. It's the squeaky wheels that get oiled. Without that critical mass of disgruntled new owners, VW will be less likely to address the issue and get a permanent fix. I don't see that happening until those disgruntled owners turn incandescent when the replacement bellows also leak, which looks to be the trajectory we are on. The sooner VW prioritise this fix the sooner we can relax and enjoy our MY23 Calis. My 2c

 

[dspuk]

Hard to say. The wetting conditions appear to be quite specific before a leak is initiated. Hosing the seams is not a good test. Persistent wetting over several hours => leak.

I think people who have had the water ingress do need to kick up a fuss. It's the squeaky wheels that get oiled. Without that critical mass of disgruntled new owners, VW will be less likely to address the issue and get a permanent fix. I don't see that happening until those disgruntled owners turn incandescent when the replacement bellows also leak, which looks to be the trajectory we are on. The sooner VW prioritise this fix the sooner we can relax and enjoy our MY23 Calis. My 2c

Fully agree. Those that have the issue should be on the phone to VW CS and at their dealers. I would be. But coming on here just to yelling at other members on here who are trying to give them sound advice and write indignant rabble rousing posts demanding VW fixes their issues is a waste of their precious energy. Focus it in the right place. My 2p.

 

[Corradobrit]

Fully agree. Those that have the issue should be on the phone to VW CS and at their dealers. I would be. But coming on here just to yelling at other members on here who are trying to give them sound advice and write indignant rabble rousing posts demanding VW fixes their issues is a waste of their precious energy. Focus it in the right place. My 2p.

Yes, there is a well worn process to fix manufacture defects which you probably know more than most on here given your background. There is no way I would refuse to take possession and go to the back of the queue. Use the warranty and get a proper fix. VW have another year of production for this T6.1 gen Cali and a year+ of headaches surrounding the bellows.

My biggest worry is that VW will say sod it and go back to the last gen of bellows as a temporary fix for the T6.1 and its swan song year.

The T7 Cali could have the MY23 design/fabric but the designers will have addressed the problem early on before production. And those bellows will likely not be compatible with the T6.1.

 

[RockinNRollin]

if it wasn’t for the otherwise apparently better fabric of the new bellows (light inside, seems better insulated etc) I’d be happy to go for the old material…. In fact, I’d rather get a dealer endorsement (or VWCV) to go and apply seam sealer to the material than get it swapped out. I might even ask if I can do that if it gets to the new bellows stage; I imagine the old one would go in the bin so why not try it if they say it won’t invalidate any warranty. Probably not the way to move VW to a better solution but I doubt they’ll do that for the 6.1 now anyway - I’d it becomes a problem they’ll just start installing the earlier single colour bellows I reckon

 

[Joncali2023!!]

Can we get some names together of those with the same issues ?
Leaking bellows …..
would bed great to get it sent across to VW customer service

 

[andyinluton]

I’ve been thinking about it too, and I wonder if it’s something to do with the water pooling between the canvas layer and the mesh window, and then seeping out.

Totally agree - its what I said 50 posts earlier!

 

[dspuk]

if it wasn’t for the otherwise apparently better fabric of the new bellows (light inside, seems better insulated etc) I’d be happy to go for the old material…. In fact, I’d rather get a dealer endorsement (or VWCV) to go and apply seam sealer to the material than get it swapped out. I might even ask if I can do that if it gets to the new bellows stage; I imagine the old one would go in the bin so why not try it if they say it won’t invalidate any warranty. Probably not the way to move VW to a better solution but I doubt they’ll do that for the 6.1 now anyway - I’d it becomes a problem they’ll just start installing the earlier single colour bellows I reckon

Unfortunately key parts changes like this negate the ability to fit the older ones on mass, without a huge effort to ramp old parts production back up again. On change over there would have been a flip in production at the supplier where the old one was ramped down to make stock orders only and the new ones full speed on the production line. I have no doubt VW will be aware and looking at the issue but when we had issues like this it could take months for the bulletin to come out with the fix. Given costs involved VW will be looking at everything BUT a bellows change. I can imagine the end result will actually not be far from your seam fix suggestion.

 

[andyinluton]

Can we get some names together of those with the same issues ?
Leaking bellows …..
would bed great to get it sent across to VW customer service

Might be worth also getting a list of those that don't have a problem with the new bellows.

Its difficult to tell even on this thread how many people are affected - there's posts from people with T6 bellows, people with T6.1 old style & some that we cant tell as they are "Looking to Buy"

 

[Corradobrit]

Totally agree - its what I said 50 posts earlier!

Maybe worth packing the gap with water repelling material to prevent water accumulating in the seam.

 

[andyinluton]

Maybe worth packing the gap with water repelling material to prevent water accumulating in the seam.

There isn't a gap between the layers.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Might be worth also getting a list of those that don't have a problem with the new bellows.

Its difficult to tell even on this thread how many people are affected - there's posts from people with T6 bellows, people with T6.1 old style & some that we cant tell as they are "Looking to Buy"

Trying to gauge the scale of the issue from this thread or even these forums is unfortunately impossible. The majority of forum participants are the extremes; they are here because they’re enthusiasts (likely to pay particular attention to this issue and/or have far less tolerance for it vs some who may accept it as normal) or because they have had some issue and are wanting to ask a question (so a few will be here because of the bellows).

Fairly sure I read somewhere on here (perhaps this thread) where someone suggested after a few wettings the bellows stopped leaking but then again, that could just be the weather conditions varying as much as anything.

 

[RockinNRollin]

So my experience so far; preceding a high confidence (and correct) forecast of torrential driven rain for several days (!) I equipped the base of the bellows with microfibre cloths. There were no visible leaks anywhere, although the tail of the Cali was pointing into the wind as the winds were forecast to be strong. The corner cloths were damp in the morning but there was a fair bit of condensation on all the metalwork everywhere (3 people in the van, fairly cool temperatures and the rain prevented windows being open!) so given the bellows fabric looked and felt completely dry I am fairly certain this is condensation not anything else.

I will report back if we get leaky bellows on our upcoming trips…..

 

[Corradobrit]

While I haven't experienced any leaking myself and said as much previously with caveat that the rain I experienced was light, I have yet to hear anyone else say their MY23 bellows were water tight.

 

[Trojax]

Totally agree - its what I said 50 posts earlier!

Andy but what about the talking round in circles, come on Haha

 

[andyinluton]

I make it 15 owners on here so far that have a leak & just a few of us that have said we don't.

I do think its water coming through the front mesh window, just below the window there is a layer of the fabric as a window frame, water can run down behind that frame as it forms a pocket just above the horizontal seam.

I think we need some close up photos of the bottom of the mesh window panel from the outside, anyone got an old style bellows that could do some to compare.

Once water is in there, if the outer layer forming the Frame is water proof & the inner layer is also water proof there's nowhere for the water to go other than down through the stitching holes on the seam. Combine that with the slight lean of the canvas & the water is going to come through the holes on the inside rather than the outside.

If that is the case, bigger stitch holes on the outer layer may persuade the water to drain outside rather than inside.

From all the photos Ive seen in this thread, I don't think anyone has got leaks anywhere other than that bottom seam of the window, I accept that some have a soaked inner face on that panel , but it looks to have migrated from that seam.

As a temporary fix, I would be thinking of sewing a sheet of plastic over the mesh window, its easy to do as you can easily get to both sides by unzipping the front panel, & use the mesh to put some thread through rather than making holes in the canvas, & leave the bottom of it loose just making sure its lower than the bottom of the mesh window.

 

[Andy C Berks.]

First wet trip in our MY23 this weekend and after a couple of hours sheltering in a coffee shop returned to the van to water dripping heavily along the whole left hand side of the living accommodation. My impression was that it was the seam at the bottom of the netted window that was the problem - it was heavy driving rain for several hours before we returned to the van, directly at that side of the van.
Van was on a slight incline to the rear so water had collected in the rear corner of the upstairs bed (wet mattress) down through the rear cupboard (wet clothes) and cascading off all 3 lights above the sink etc. with a good half cm of water collected in the corner of the hob (pic) - glass was closed but had pooled on top and run through the gaps.

Seemingly we are dry again now but who really knows how much got behind the kitchen paneling, ceiling lights, etc.

It really was extreme weather but even so never had it come through the seems like that in any of the multiple tents that we have used over the years. will report to VW this week as would be nervous to leave the roof up again in rain.

 

[Grigio Van Grigio]

First wet trip in our MY23 this weekend and after a couple of hours sheltering in a coffee shop returned to the van to water dripping heavily along the whole left hand side of the living accommodation. My impression was that it was the seam at the bottom of the netted window that was the problem - it was heavy driving rain for several hours before we returned to the van, directly at that side of the van.
Van was on a slight incline to the rear so water had collected in the rear corner of the upstairs bed (wet mattress) down through the rear cupboard (wet clothes) and cascading off all 3 lights above the sink etc. with a good half cm of water collected in the corner of the hob (pic) - glass was closed but had pooled on top and run through the gaps.

Seemingly we are dry again now but who really knows how much got behind the kitchen paneling, ceiling lights, etc.

It really was extreme weather but even so never had it come through the seems like that in any of the multiple tents that we have used over the years. will report to VW this week as would be nervous to leave the roof up again in rain.

View attachment 111767

That is some serious ingress! Hope everything is ok now. The rain I encountered was not as extreme as that. And no wind. But ingress was almost immediate. It seems direct rain is what does it and I do subscribe to the suggestion that water going between the mesh and the roof skin is causing it. But the interesting thing for me is the rain appeared as hard against the side of the bellows as the front, yet it was only the front that gave way. All about the angle? Possibly. Clearly, given the right conditions, the side panels will give way too.

I will be contacting VW this week to raise the warranty call on this. It absolutely needs sorting. Stating to miss my T4 Westie all ready!

 

[Kayleigh]

Has anyone had their MY23 bellows replaced and is there a design change that resolves the leaking issue?
If they just replace with the same bellows, that’s probably not going to solve the problem.
Surely, the simplest solution is to apply a seam sealant. I wonder if VW would authorise that without affecting the warranty..