2023 Ocean leaking roof fabric

[Andy C Berks.]

waterproof.

I wonder if some form of Beeswax proofing rubbed sparingly in to the outside stitching below the windows might help, whilst also hopefully not creating any warranty issues. I use Grangers Waterproofing Wax on walking boots and seems it might help - provided it’s the seam rather than the fabric or zip that is leaking.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Interesting initial response from VWVC Liverpool in that they have just said that -
- I am not the first person to raise this with them,
- the material is advised as showerproof, not waterproof (yes really !) so use it with roof down in the rain,
- there are aftermarket waterproof covers available (shouldn’t need to use one, thanks)
- they would be happy to have a look at it (but why if you say it’s only showerproof)
Just off to make a cup of coffee and stop crying/laughing before going back in for round 2. Albeit will watch the other Andy’s survey for a bit longer before going back in to bat.

That is a horrific response! AFAIK, there is nothing saying anywhere to that effect other than the remark in the manual about "driving rain / storm conditions", but persistent rain without much wind wouldn't qualify for that and judging from what's said on here that's sufficient for the water to come pouring in . . .

 

[RockinNRollin]

I wonder if some form of Beeswax proofing rubbed sparingly in to the outside stitching below the windows might help, whilst also hopefully not creating any warranty issues. I use Grangers Waterproofing Wax on walking boots and seems it might help - provided it’s the seam rather than the fabric or zip that is leaking.

I agree, it seems a pragmatic approach, but it's quite likely that the fix VW will eventually reveal will probably be applied to the existing canvas rather than replacing it completely (on cost grounds), so it'll probably be something like a bead of clear silicone along the seam or some other seam sealant. If you're been applying anything to that, it'll be very difficult to get any residue out so the sealant would adhere properly. It's not like it's a hard surface you can apply a solvent to in order to clean thoroughly.

 

[dspuk]

Interesting initial response from VWVC Liverpool in that they have just said that -
- I am not the first person to raise this with them,
- the material is advised as showerproof, not waterproof (yes really !) so use it with roof down in the rain,
- there are aftermarket waterproof covers available (shouldn’t need to use one, thanks)
- they would be happy to have a look at it (but why if you say it’s only showerproof)
Just off to make a cup of coffee and stop crying/laughing before going back in for round 2. Albeit will watch the other Andy’s survey for a bit longer before going back in to bat.

Decided to check the manual on this (old bellows, 6.1 MY22) which says:

"Close the pop-up roof if there is a strong wind or a strong wind with driving rain."

and

"During rain showers, water could enter the vehicle interior via the open windows or front opening ansd cuase damage to the vehicle. Close the windows when it is raining."

Both of which infer it's fine in the rain just be careful with driving rain and wind and don't leave the windows open.

No mention of only being showerproof, so worth checking the new bellows manual.

 

[ArunAlec]

I wonder if some form of Beeswax proofing rubbed sparingly in to the outside stitching below the windows might help, whilst also hopefully not creating any warranty issues. I use Grangers Waterproofing Wax on walking boots and seems it might help - provided it’s the seam rather than the fabric or zip that is leaking.

Unless the VW handbook has changed since my T5.1, it stated that the canvas should not have any waterproofing applied, so if you do use anything beware!

 

[Kayleigh]

showerproof

Even a denim jacket is regarded as showerproof …

 

[dspuk]

Unless the VW handbook has changed since my T5.1, it stated that the canvas should not have any waterproofing applied, so if you do use anything beware!

It's hidden in the back of the manual under maintenance but says for the 6.1:

"Only use water to clean the bellows. Never use household agents or impregnating agents".

 

[Trojax]

As for adding any waterproofing to the Bellows question, given the material I would only consider adding something like this

 

[Grigio Van Grigio]

Decided to check the manual on this (old bellows, 6.1 MY22) which says:

"Close the pop-up roof if there is a strong wind or a strong wind with driving rain."

and

"During rain showers, water could enter the vehicle interior via the open windows or front opening ansd cuase damage to the vehicle. Close the windows when it is raining."

Both of which infer it's fine in the rain just be careful with driving rain and wind and don't leave the windows open.

No mention of only being showerproof, so worth checking the new bellows manual.

Just looked at my booklet and it says exactly the same thing. No mention of it being showerproof. When the roof leaked, there was neither strong wind not driving rain. I didn’t have the windows open either.

 

[dspuk]

For those of you who want photos, one of the inside front seams leaking and two of the corresponding outside seams

View attachment 111840

This is the most interesting picture I've seen so far and points towards @andyinluton 's theory around water hitting the front mesh, pooling in the bottom of the seam and then leaking. This image clearly shows the water runs coming in via that seam only. One wonders if this new design has more of a "lip" in that area holding water or just the stitching is not as good. I would be tempted to put some sealent in this area only, on the stitching, but not on the fabric itself per sey to see if it made a difference. VW can only refuse a warranty claim if any action could be seen to make something fail, not to try and fix a failure.

I'd be very careful to just apply to the seam area. IF it was this that was the root cause I can't imagine the VW fix would be much different, either sealer or tape. An "easy" fix on site and that would not be a VW issue is some good old Gorilla/Duck tape (Gorilla Tape Crystal Clear) across the seam from the outside. That would be a non intrusive fit while everyone awaits a VW approved service fix. Certainly if I had these bellows I'd have this in the boot (we already carry a roll anyway for emergencies).

Also be interesting to know if the side window lower seams fail in the same way.

 

[CaliforniaPhil]

This is the most interesting picture I've seen so far and points towards @andyinluton 's theory around water hitting the front mesh, pooling in the bottom of the seam and then leaking. This image clearly shows the water runs coming in via that seam only. One wonders if this new design has more of a "lip" in that area holding water or just the stitching is not as good. I would be tempted to put some sealent in this area only, on the stitching, but not on the fabric itself per sey to see if it made a difference. VW can only refuse a warranty claim if any action could be seen to make something fail, not to try and fix a failure. I'd be very careful to just apply to the seam area. IF it was this that was the root cause I can't imagine the VW fix would be much different, either sealer or tape. An "easy" fix on site and that would not be a VW issue is some good old Gorilla/Duck tape (Gorilla Tape Crystal Clear) across the seam from the outside. Certainly if I had these bellows I'd have this in the boot (we already carry a roll anyway for emergencies).

Also be interesting to know if the side window lower seams fail in the same way.

Like mine, dry above the seam and wet below.

 

[andyinluton]

An "easy" fix on site and that would not be a VW issue is some good old Gorilla/Duck tape (Gorilla Tape Crystal Clear) across the seam from the outside.

I don't think it would work on the outside of the seam as thats the very front face of the bellows & on the outside of the mesh. If you seal the outside you would be stopping the water coming out that way so could make things worse.


I think it needs to be on the outside face of the fold down flap so behind the mesh when looking from outside the van. I would be experimenting with putting something like a straw under the tape to make a bump/ledge just above the bottom of the mesh window to try and get the water going out via the mesh.

An alternative would be to tape some plastic sheet to the inside face of the mesh making sure that the bottom of it is sealed pretty well, again to try and stop the water coming through the mesh & it it does to drain it outside the van.


Next time it rains, someone with a leak need to open the flap & see if water is pooling at that bottom seam.

On the photo below , it may just be the angle its taken at & the way the fabric is laying, but it looks like little pockets have formed in places in that seam where the mesh is stitched onto the flap. In those places the water would go down below the top edge of the seam & then presumably leak on the inside. When you then look at the leaky internal photos its not a continuous consistent line of leak, but more a series of individual leaks, I window if they line up with the "pockets" in the photo.

The angle of the photo below may not be clear, but its the flap opened & laid flat & taken from the top of the flap, so water would be running down away from the camera.

 

[dspuk]

I don't think it would work on the outside of the seam as thats the very front face of the bellows & on the outside of the mesh. If you seal the outside you would be stopping the water coming out that way so could make things worse.


I think it needs to be on the outside face of the fold down flap so behind the mesh when looking from outside the van. I would be experimenting with putting something like a straw under the tape to make a bump/ledge just above the bottom of the mesh window to try and get the water going out via the mesh.

An alternative would be to tape some plastic sheet to the inside face of the mesh making sure that the bottom of it is sealed pretty well, again to try and stop the water coming through the mesh & it it does to drain it outside the van.


Next time it rains, someone with a leak need to open the flap & see if water is pooling at that bottom seam.

No, you're right, just popped mine up to have a look. Given the way the edge seam is more or less open it's clearly designed to let water flow into that area.



I guess you could carefully put the tape on the inside and it would be enough of a barrier to stop water ingress, but the seam is much tighter against the bottom than I realised now having had a good look. Water would still come in over the tape if on the outside and then actually make the problem worse. Maybe a piece inside and outside like this is enough to stop the worst, if not all, for now.




The intriguing thing is I have a couple of "large" holes near seams and stitching that have never leaked. Like this.

 

[Trojax]

No, you're right, just popped mine up to have a look. Given the way the edge seam is more or less open it's clearly designed to let water flow into that area.

View attachment 111854

I guess you could carefully put the tape on the inside and it would be enough of a barrier to stop water ingress, but the seam is much tighter against the bottom than I realised now having had a good look. Water would still come in over the tape if on the outside and then actually make the problem worse. Maybe a piece inside and outside like this is enough to stop the worst, if not all, for now.

View attachment 111855
View attachment 111856

The intriguing thing is I have a couple of "large" holes near seams and stitching that have never leaked. Like this.

View attachment 111857

Hi Yes the 2 bigger holes are where the needleds are lined up with the material panels to stitch together

 

[Stu@rt]

Interesting initial response from VWVC Liverpool in that they have just said that -
- I am not the first person to raise this with them,
- the material is advised as showerproof, not waterproof (yes really !) so use it with roof down in the rain,
- there are aftermarket waterproof covers available (shouldn’t need to use one, thanks)
- they would be happy to have a look at it (but why if you say it’s only showerproof)
Just off to make a cup of coffee and stop crying/laughing before going back in for round 2. Albeit will watch the other Andy’s survey for a bit longer before going back in to bat.

That's a really poor response from them.....

Cali Chris of YouTube fame is from Liverpool Van Centre isn't he?

https://www.youtube.com/@CaliforniaChris/about

Obviously has loads of Cali knowledge. I'd be tempted to reach out to him to discuss the response from one of his colleagues?

He has even done a video on the updated canvas.............

 

[Trojax]

I have a new name for this thread It should be the Barcode Leak Issue !!

 

[Andy C Berks.]

I don't think it would work on the outside of the seam as thats the very front face of the bellows & on the outside of the mesh. If you seal the outside you would be stopping the water coming out that way so could make things worse.


I think it needs to be on the outside face of the fold down flap so behind the mesh when looking from outside the van. I would be experimenting with putting something like a straw under the tape to make a bump/ledge just above the bottom of the mesh window to try and get the water going out via the mesh.

An alternative would be to tape some plastic sheet to the inside face of the mesh making sure that the bottom of it is sealed pretty well, again to try and stop the water coming through the mesh & it it does to drain it outside the van.


Next time it rains, someone with a leak need to open the flap & see if water is pooling at that bottom seam.

On the photo below , it may just be the angle its taken at & the way the fabric is laying, but it looks like little pockets have formed in places in that seam where the mesh is stitched onto the flap. In those places the water would go down below the top edge of the seam & then presumably leak on the inside. When you then look at the leaky internal photos its not a continuous consistent line of leak, but more a series of individual leaks, I window if they line up with the "pockets" in the photo.

The angle of the photo below may not be clear, but its the flap opened & laid flat & taken from the top of the flap, so water would be running down away from the camera.

View attachment 111853

Looking at some of the pictures of the previous bellows I wonder if the edging tape, around the windows, on the newer version is ever so slightly thicker and thus giving a bit more of a ledge for water to pool on. Hard to tell just from photos and really needs a side by side comparison of two sets of bellows.

I have just tried to recreate the leak on my l/h side window by half opening the window zip and pouring cupfuls of water in to the meshed area, but no sign of water ingress, which isn’t really surprising as needs a more continuous drenching.

Will pop the roof next time I see rain and keep fingers crossed - as much as anything am needing to know just how much rain it can take before the roof is unusable at present - it’s so annoying as everything else about the new van has been superb so far.

 

[Corradobrit]

I don't think it would work on the outside of the seam as thats the very front face of the bellows & on the outside of the mesh. If you seal the outside you would be stopping the water coming out that way so could make things worse.


On the photo below , it may just be the angle its taken at & the way the fabric is laying, but it looks like little pockets have formed in places in that seam where the mesh is stitched onto the flap.

View attachment 111853

I think you have a very good point there.
The leaks tend to form where the fabric is taught. We know the new fabric has more of an elastic quality like neoprene and its possible when the fabric is pulled tight the stitching which I doubt is equally elastic causes the holes to open up, thus allowing water to pass through. This could explain the lack of leakage in the previous bellows material if the same thread and stitch pattern was carried over to the new fabric.

 

[Grigio Van Grigio]

Just booked my van in to Manchester van centre to get them to look at the leaking roof under warranty. I was quoted £354 investigation cost should it turn out not to be a warranty issue. I politely informed them I would not be paying anything!

 

[RockinNRollin]

Spotted this post from @Kenisted elsewhere and there's something fairly significant (to my mind anyway) within it:

Linky to the post



No bellows stock anywhere apparently?! A few possibilities;

1) The dealer is wrong, perhaps @Tomdbreeze could confirm if there really is zero stock of the bellows?
2) Production of new Californias is absorbing all the supplier stock of the bellows and new builds are getting priority
3) The bellows supplier and/or VWCV have realised there's a problem and have withdrawn all stock until it's rectified

Now if it's 3), it will be very interesting to see if those expecting imminent build of their Californias still have that build proceed and complete on time, if they get stuck at the factory (like those from a while ago where various other components were missing). If they hold production that really suggests they're concerned about the bellows and would signal positive news for existing owners?

What do you think @dspuk ?

 

[dspuk]

Spotted this post elsewhere and there's something fairly significant (to my mind anyway) within it:

Linky to the post

View attachment 111882

No bellows stock anywhere apparently?! A few possibilities;

1) The dealer is wrong, perhaps @Tomdbreeze could confirm if there really is zero stock of the bellows?
2) Production of new Californias is absorbing all the supplier stock of the bellows and new builds are getting priority
3) The bellows supplier and/or VWCV have realised there's a problem and have withdrawn all stock until it's rectified

Now if it's 3), it will be very interesting to see if those expecting imminent build of their Californias still have that build proceed and complete on time, if they get stuck at the factory (like those from a while ago where various other components were missing). If they hold production that really suggests they're concerned about the bellows and would signal positive news for existing owners?

What do you think @dspuk ?

The situation gets complex with a running production line, but yes, option 3 is usual when an investigation is ongoing and the OEM wants to avoid massive costs for people getting full bellows replaced. You can stop parts ordering (it was an option in our systems) of a specific part number while an investigation is ongoing. Does not mean they have identified a fix, yet, but it stops the bleeding costs while they work out what to do.

You cannot stop production though except in extreme cases - at Nissan the cost of shutting a production line was 1,000,000 a day, reportedly. I think it happened twice in my 27 years. Suppliers delivering JIT parts were contractually obliged to deliver in time else they paid any shutdown fines. Why they all had warehouses near the plant.

So what do they do when there is a part problem? They keep building and fix upstream. Usually several groups of workers would be pulled off line work would get the job of moving through the carparks of vehicles stored (across all of Europe, in repair gangs) to apply an approved fix.

 

[RockinNRollin]

The situation gets complex with a running production line, but yes, option 3 is usual when an investigation is ongoing and the OEM wants to avoid massive costs for people getting full bellows replaced. You can stop parts ordering (it was an option in our systems) of a specific part number while an investigation is ongoing. Does not mean they have identified a fix, yet, but it stops the bleeding costs while they work out what to do.

You cannot stop production though except in extreme cases - at Nissan the cost of shutting a production line was 1,000,000 a day, reportedly. I think it happened twice in my 27 years. Suppliers delivering JIT parts were contractually obliged to deliver in time else they paid any shutdown fines. Why they all had warehouses near the plant.

So what do they do when there is a part problem? They keep building and fix upstream. Usually several groups of workers would be pulled off line work would get the job of moving through the carparks of vehicles stored (across all of Europe, in repair gangs) to apply an approved fix.

Interesting, thanks. I get the impression California builds (the camping component at least) is less of a traditional production line so like you say, I suspect if this is the case, they'd probably just leave the bellows off, park the otherwise finished vehicles up in a compound and wait until they've decided what to do. This is why I think anyone who has a Cali that's about to go into build (or is in build) it would be interesting to hear if their order apparently gets stuck, or if it still completes and gets sent across to Emden as per usual.

 

[dspuk]

Interesting, thanks. I get the impression California builds (the camping component at least) is less of a traditional production line so like you say, I suspect if this is the case, they'd probably just leave the bellows off, park the otherwise finished vehicles up in a compound and wait until they've decided what to do. This is why I think anyone who has a Cali that's about to go into build (or is in build) it would be interesting to hear if their order apparently gets stuck, or if it still completes and gets sent across to Emden as per usual.

I don’t get that impression. From reading the article of a visit a few years back it’s no different to a mass production line, just a little slower with a part van brought in. I can’t think of any reason they would leave a bellows off. It’s far quicker and easier to build and repair than it is to part build and then try and retrofit parts.

We never used to stop cars being shipped per sey, but once in final compund they were put on hold until the lads had repaired them.

 

[WelshGas]

Maybe a previous model, but probably very similar.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Interesting that show the Cali being blasted by rain and the bellows being carefully examined - you'd have thought this would have identified the issues that are being encountered