Avoiding roof corrosion?

[WelshGas]

A few years ago a member did locate an American manufacturer that produced seals without steel inserts. That information either did not reach VW, or was not taken up by them. I'm afraid this saga, appalling as it is, is not going to be remedied at this late stage.

Will be interesting to see what happens with the next generation. The New Defender doesn't have aluminium panels on a steel framework and I would be surprised if VW continued with the same system going forward.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

I had a Lotus 7 in the 1970's, with aluminium panels riveted to a steel box frame, I have owned a 1957 series 1 Land Rover for 20 years with a similar detail and I recently sold a VW Phaeton owned from new for 17 years with aluminium door panels wrapped around a steel frame. Now I have a California.

Not to boast. All four cherished despite 'galvanic corrosion' problems: which I have faced.

VW paid 50% of the cost of new doors on my Phaeton on its 12 year corrosion warranty (only months before expiry), after a previous attempt some years before to repair, 'isolate' the two metals etc. on the existing doors for which VW paid 100%. After good support from my Ipswich dealer, VW took a little time but ended up responsive, supportive and generous; with Rackhams Bodyshop Ipswich exceptionally attentive.

The Lotus and Land Rover were/are Waxoyled to the hilt, and now the California is the latest challenge I find - thanks, I repeat, in particular to the @Perfectos postings which nudged me to check what I had imagined unlikely at such an early stage.

I am going to persevere with VW Ipswich, and hope to get this resolved that way. If it wasn't for the warranty I would simply replace the seal. I agree with @WelshGas that the steel reinforced seal is very unliked to be changed at this a stage, so the best solution is the one adopted by @Perfectos, @HIGGINS and others: regular checking and seal replacement (inexpensive): bedding the aluminium roof within the seal in some form of anti-corrosion product. After some fresh research I think my first choice will be Lanoguard (thanks @HIGGINS), second choice ACF50 and third Waxoyl.

But perhaps VW will have their own ideas and product? There is quite a history on this and I am, clearly, far from alone. I will report back as this develops. In the meantime, all relevant links and tips will be welcome.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

I’m not sure I would recommend anyone taking the roof seal off.

For me the clue is in the name - seal.

Having just washed mine, which fits tight after 15 years, I think taking it off would inevitably damage the tight fit. The VW buffoons/mechanics seems to make a mess of it more often than not. I can’t see it being a good idea.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

I’m not sure I would recommend anyone taking the roof seal off.

For me the clue is in the name - seal.

Having just washed mine, which fits tight after 15 years, I think taking it off would inevitably damage the tight fit. The VW buffoons/mechanics seems to make a mess of it more often than not. I can’t see it being a good idea.

‘There’s the rub’: leave well along and hope you are a lucky one or investigate to check.

I am glad I did the latter, @Lambeth Cali after 15 years the opposite.

@Perfectos and @WelshGas point out that the seal has been unchanged since around 2004 when the current California line started production, but I do wonder whether the same pattern of seal has been sourced from different suppliers over the years - so that some of us get a good’un and others are less fortunate. Certainly, close gentle inspection of mine shows it was bound to fail: the steel reinforcement hardly covered by the rubber.

 

[Ozzy Pete]

I’m not sure I would recommend anyone taking the roof seal off.

For me the clue is in the name - seal.

Having just washed mine, which fits tight after 15 years, I think taking it off would inevitably damage the tight fit. The VW buffoons/mechanics seems to make a mess of it more often than not. I can’t see it being a good idea.

You have to take the seal off or at least remove parts of it to check to see if there is any signs of corrosion. Now VW have done the roof repair and completely adhered the NEW seal it’s impossible to now take it off to see anything. My roof has just been completely resprayed due to a huge cockup by the workshop so hopefully the van will get at least another 4 years+ before corrosion reoccurs.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

You have to take the seal off or at least remove parts of it to check to see if there is any signs of corrosion. Now VW have done the roof repair and completely adhered the NEW seal it’s impossible to now take it off to see anything. My roof has just been completely resprayed due to a huge cockup by the workshop so hopefully the van will get at least another 4 years+ before corrosion reoccurs.

Just to be clear, @Ozzy Pete, am I correct that you had corrosion issues, requiring a repainting - then a second respray - of your T5 aluminium pop top, all done by VW who adhered a new seal on conclusion so that it is a permanent fix? Or am I conflating different points of yours?

This is a new line of thought I had not considered - that VW may instigate a remedy under warranty to ‘seal’ a new seal onto the roof. I don’t think I like that idea, which I will resist; thank you @Ozzy Pete for raising that as a possibility.

What with @Perfectos having four new seals in as many years my wariness is on the increase.

 

[Ozzy Pete]

Just to be clear, @Ozzy Pete, am I correct that you had corrosion issues, requiring a repainting - then a second respray - of your T5 aluminium pop top, all done by VW who adhered a new seal on conclusion so that it is a permanent fix? Or am I conflating different points of yours?

This is a new line of thought I had not considered - that VW may instigate a remedy under warranty to ‘seal’ a new seal onto the roof. I don’t think I like that idea, which I will resist; thank you @Ozzy Pete for raising that as a possibility.

What with @Perfectos having four new seals in as many years my wariness is on the increase.

Three and a half years into owning our van we had the dreaded lurgy.
Booked it into Sinclairs Gorseinon to get it repaired under warranty.
The repair consisted of taking all the paint off underneath the seal then treating it with some special VW concoction then sticking the seal back so it couldn’t be moved.
Moving on 4 years we had Lacquer start peeling off the panel above the front screen so booked it into Sinclairs to get the work done. They had it about a week and when I picked it up it had been raining so couldn’t see much. After getting it home I noticed a dent half way down the roof, on raising the roof I realised why. Someone in the workshop hadn’t followed the rules and opened all the doors when lowering the roof hence 2 nasty creases plus a badly ripped canvas.
The remedy to fix it was to take the roof off beat out the dents then completely respray the whole roof fit new seal and a new Panoramic canvas. That was a very expensive mistake for Sinclairs but win win for me. There was no argument as to what happened.
If i hadn’t noticed this and packed it away fo the winter then it could have been a very different story.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

I will never ever let a VW numpty near my van which looks particularly wonderful after its 4 hour wash, sap removal and ceramic wax.
The metallic ‘wheat beige’ looks oddly almost pearlescent.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

Three and a half years into owning our van we had the dreaded lurgy.
Booked it into Sinclairs Gorseinon to get it repaired under warranty.
The repair consisted of taking all the paint off underneath the seal then treating it with some special VW concoction then sticking the seal back so it couldn’t be moved.
Moving on 4 years we had Lacquer start peeling off the panel above the front screen so booked it into Sinclairs to get the work done. They had it about a week and when I picked it up it had been raining so couldn’t see much. After getting it home I noticed a dent half way down the roof, on raising the roof I realised why. Someone in the workshop hadn’t followed the rules and opened all the doors when lowering the roof hence 2 nasty creases plus a badly ripped canvas.
The remedy to fix it was to take the roof off beat out the dents then completely respray the whole roof fit new seal and a new Panoramic canvas. That was a very expensive mistake for Sinclairs but win win for me. There was no argument as to what happened.
If i hadn’t noticed this and packed it away fo the winter then it could have been a very different story.

Thanks, @Ozzy Pete , that is useful preparation: Forwarned is forarmed.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

I will never ever let a VW numpty near my van which looks particularly wonderful after its 4 hour wash, sap removal and ceramic wax.
The metallic ‘wheat beige’ looks oddly almost pearlescent.

For 17 years VW Ipswich (ie cars) were numpty free, in fact consistently exceptionally conscientious and skilful on my (not at all common) Phaeton. I have now switched over to the commercial side with my MY 2023 California and am hoping they will not disappoint.

I admire your abilities @Lambeth Cali if you do all your maintenance and repairs, I don’t have those skills.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

Following my posts #80 & #112 above, I have been asked today to bring my California into VW Ipswich for an inspection by a service manager and his warranty colleague w/c 19.6.2023, who are then going to refer things to the VW paint and body team ......

I feel I am going to have to be need to be patient - unless I just buy a seal myself, and replace with anti-corrosion treatment as others describe above.

Apparently 'Workshop Action 75A1' is not applicable to my vehicle (although the information is "very similar" to the issue with my van).

I will update this string as things develop and I am given more information (for example the correct current Workshop Action reference , if there is one).

Although I live in a seafront location, in the 6 months of ownership from new my California spent much of the winter in Portugal, garaged, and the rest of winter garaged here, and has been very regularly washed and does not stand on the street. My point being, in summary, that if I have this problem after 7 months chances are other new California do too.

Herewith a brief update on progress with my defective elevating roof seal issue, under this still appropriately titled string 'Avoiding Roof Corrosion': my principal driver on this matter.

VW Ipswich completed their inspection on 20.6.2023 with their VAG approved bodyshop (Rackhams) to agree a warranty claim to submit to VW. They listened carefully to all I have gleaned from this forum (thanks to relevant contributors) and I am hopeful that an effective solution will result with not just a new seal but some long term protection against the risk. I will post again as things progress.

Incidentally, VW Ipswich again confirmed that Workshop Action 75A1 does not actually apply to MY2023 California explaining that the work envisaged by that Action has been incorporated in the current build, but at the same time they accepted that the problems were similar if not identical.

 

[Lambeth Cali]

For 17 years VW Ipswich (ie cars) were numpty free, in fact consistently exceptionally conscientious and skilful on my (not at all common) Phaeton. I have now switched over to the commercial side with my MY 2023 California and am hoping they will not disappoint.

I admire your abilities @Lambeth Cali if you do all your maintenance and repairs, I don’t have those skills.

I take it to a VW specialist for servicing and MOT. I have a Golf too. I’m no use with the oily stuff.

I just think the workshop staff have little idea about the camping side and seem to consistently do real damage. They don’t seem to be trained. It is almost unknown to read positive stuff here about VW work on the roof etc. I’ve just decided to get an idea how the camping stuff works.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

I take it to a VW specialist for servicing and MOT. I have a Golf too. I’m no use with the oily stuff.

I just think the workshop staff have little idea about the camping side and seem to consistently do real damage. They don’t seem to be trained. It is almost unknown to read positive stuff here about VW work on the roof etc. I’ve just decided to get an idea how the camping stuff works.

On that basis @Lambeth Cali I don’t think we are so far apart. The ‘Transporter’ mechanicals are above my pay grade, but the camper equipment it has to be best to do all you can yourself; or at the least do the homework on this forum and get a pretty clear method statement from any third party before letting them loose.

 

[Defender90]

has anyone removed a roof seal and refitted a new one? mine is showing signs of corrosion in the seal it has bulged in one area

 

[andyinluton]

has anyone removed a roof seal and refitted a new one? mine is showing signs of corrosion in the seal it has bulged in one area

Are you not still under warranty?

 

[Defender90]

Are you not still under warranty?

yes but i dont trust them,i was thinking of asking them for the seal and i will fit

 

[yossarian]

yes but i dont trust them,i was thinking of asking them for the seal and i will fit

I priced one a while back at around £80 I think. I'd be surprised to find a dealer who will let you self fit. VW pays them to do the work.

 

[Viktorgeorge]

Herewith a brief update on progress with my defective elevating roof seal issue, under this still appropriately titled string 'Avoiding Roof Corrosion': my principal driver on this matter.

VW Ipswich completed their inspection on 20.6.2023 with their VAG approved bodyshop (Rackhams) to agree a warranty claim to submit to VW. They listened carefully to all I have gleaned from this forum (thanks to relevant contributors) and I am hopeful that an effective solution will result with not just a new seal but some long term protection against the risk. I will post again as things progress.

Incidentally, VW Ipswich again confirmed that Workshop Action 75A1 does not actually apply to MY2023 California explaining that the work envisaged by that Action has been incorporated in the current build, but at the same time they accepted that the problems were similar if not identical.

Further update.

After reporting my corrosion (see #80 above, et seq.) to my local Ipswich VW Van Centre on 30 May, I eventually (after two months: they are busy plus there, also holidays), on 26 July, has an appointment to replace the original seal (now around 9 months old).

Despite three diplomatic attempts to agree with VW Ipswich that I attend this fitting (I was happy to do it outside in their yard), with their technician (I had explained all the issues I have gleaned off this forum, and my dealer is not a California specialist); in practice, on arrival, the eventual agreement by email that I could attend the seal replacement never happened: the van was taken away and I was put in a waiting area.

This made we weary (with good reason as it turned out).

All my explanations - including suggestions to warm the seal and take exceptional care with the front of roof fitting (because shaping the seal to the two bumps on the roof profile appears the cause of the original steel 'break out' problem describe in #80 above) - were obviously not communicated to the technician.

After an hour or more the van was brought round (with all the normal politeness) and I drove home and, immediately, removed (carefully in the warm sun) the new seal to find that the integral steel reinforcement along the front had 'broken out' in fitting (presumably the seal which comes flat had been hammered or 'thumped' cold in place to follow the front roof profile). Additionally, this time, the roof edge paint had been damaged (down to the aluminium) in several places along the front.

In other words, the perfect conditions for galvanic corrosion had been established.

So I was worse off than before (as #80 above) when I had found, ex-factory, that the steel reinforcement had broken through the rubber seal and started to rust but the aluminium paintwork was undamaged (though slightly rust marked).

Very unhappy, I rang in and, to be fair, VW Ipswich were apologetic and they quickly agreed to get another (third therefore) seal and some VW protective tape and this time for their VAG approved body shop (Rackhams Ipswich) to fit the seal. From the start I had asked that this should be a body shop job, offering to pay any extra cost, but VW Ipswich had been insistent that they replace the seal under warranty in their own workshop.

It is disappointing, and perhaps the main reason why VW Ipswich damaged the seal and paintwork when fitting the second seal, that VW apparently do no provide dealers with instructions for changing this seal.

I did find, in a video posted by @WelshGas, the factory method of fitting the seal using a roller in a tiny 3 second slot in this video from 5 minutes and 39 seconds:

Incidentally, although tape is not fitted to the front of the roof, it is listed for the other three sides at LLLParts here:

https://www.lllparts.co.uk/catalogs/vw/RDW/CAMP/1058/8/875/875010

as 'protective film' under Number Part Code 35.

Anyway, Rackhams Ipswich have leant over backwards to remedy the position for me (at VW Ipswich's cost) and yesterday they fitting a third seal (I had previously' touched in' the VW Ipswich paint damage, at Rackhams request, so it could dry), with me in attendance. The seal was warmed up before (in a low temperature oven) and again during the fit (with a heat gun). Only very gentle hand manipulation was used by a technician and a senior manager to shape the seal along the front of the roof. Fitting to the other three sides of the roof thereafter was easy.

Rackhams chose to add protective tape along the front.

I discussed with Rackhams also adding some anti-corrosion wax into the seal's groove (Waxoyl, Lanoguard or similar as @HIGGINS #89 etc. above) but decided not to do that at the initial fit because I had found previously that this made the newly fitted seal too slippery so that it did not stay in place on the front part. I plan to let the seal bake in some hot sun (off to the Italian Lakes shortly) and settle in to its intended shape then add wax later. I will use Lanoguard and let it dry off before refitting the seal hopefully so the seal does stay in place.

I cannot for the moment be certain that the third seal is now correctly fitted without damage, because I don't want to take it off for the moment whilst it beds in.

I will be keeping a pretty close eye on the painted aluminium under the seal from now on, cleaning and treating the different parts: all as set out by others above.

 

[Defender90]

Further update.

After reporting my corrosion (see #80 above, et seq.) to my local Ipswich VW Van Centre on 30 May, I eventually (after two months: they are busy plus there, also holidays), on 26 July, has an appointment to replace the original seal (now around 9 months old).

Despite three diplomatic attempts to agree with VW Ipswich that I attend this fitting (I was happy to do it outside in their yard), with their technician (I had explained all the issues I have gleaned off this forum, and my dealer is not a California specialist); in practice, on arrival, the eventual agreement by email that I could attend the seal replacement never happened: the van taken away and I was put in a waiting area.

This made we weary (with good reason as it turned out).

All my explanations - including suggestions to warm the seal and take exceptional care with the front of roof fitting (because shaping the seal to the two bumps on the roof profile appears the cause of the original steel 'break out' problem describe in #80 above) - were obviously not communicated to the technician.

After an hour or more the van was brought round (with all the normal politeness) and I drove home and, immediately, removed (carefully in the warm sun) the new seal to find that the integral steel reinforcement along the front had 'broken out' in fitting (presumably the seal which comes flat had been hammered or 'thumped' cold in place to follow the front roof profile). Additionally, this time, the roof edge paint had been damaged (down to the aluminium) in several places along the front.

In other words, the perfect conditions for galvanic corrosion had been established.

So I was worse off than before (as #80 above) when I had found, ex-factory, that the steel reinforcement had broken through the rubber seal and started to rust but the aluminium paintwork was undamaged (though slightly rust marked).

Very unhappy, I rang in and, to be fair, VW Ipswich were apologetic and they quickly agreed to get another (third therefore) seal and some VW protective tape and this time for their VAG approved body shop (Rackhams Ipswich) to fit the seal. From the start I had asked that this should be a body shop job, offering to pay any extra cost, but VW Ipswich had been insistent that they replace the seal under warranty in their own workshop.

It is disappointing, and perhaps the main reason why VW Ipswich damaged the seal and paintwork when fitting the second seal, that VW apparently do no provide dealers with instructions for changing this seal.

I did find, in a video posted by @WelshGas, the factory method of fitting the seal using a roller in a tiny 3 second slot in this video from 5 minutes and 39 seconds:

Incidentally, although tape is not fitted to the front of the roof, it is listed for the other three sides at LLLParts here:

https://www.lllparts.co.uk/catalogs/vw/RDW/CAMP/1058/8/875/875010

as 'protective film' under Number Part Code 35.

Anyway, Rackhams Ipswich have leant over backwards to remedy the position for me (at VW Ipswich's cost) and yesterday they fitting a third seal, with me in attendance. The seal was warmed up before (in a low temperature oven) and again during the fit (with a heat gun). Only very gentle hand manipulation was used by a technician and a senior manager to shape the seal along the front of the roof. Fitting to the other three sides of the roof thereafter was easy.

Rackhams chose to add protective tape along the front.

I discussed with Rackhams also adding some anti-corrosion wax into the seal's groove (Waxoyl, Lanoguard or similar as @HIGGINS #89 etc. above) but decided not to do that at the initial fit because I had found previously that this made the newly fitted seal too slippery so that it did not stay in place on the front part. I plan to let the seal bake in some hot sun (off to the Italian Lakes shortly) and settle in to its shape then add wax later. I will use Lanoguard and let it dry off before refitting the seal hopefully so the seal does stay in place.

I cannot be certain that the third seal is now correctly fitted without damage, because I don't want to take it off for the moment whilst it beds in.

I will be keeping a pretty close eye on the painted aluminium under the seal from now on. Cleaning and treating the different parts: all as set out by others above.

i refer back to my comments above i dont trust any tech to do the work i would rather do it myself and take time and care,the lanoguard is a great idea or lanoguard grease

 

[Viktorgeorge]

i refer back to my comments above i dont trust any tech to do the work i would rather do it myself and take time and care,the lanoguard is a great idea or lanoguard grease

I agree @Defender90, firstly, that I would rather have done this myself, but because of the VW warranty I needed to log the original issue with VW; and, secondly, it was specifically the Lanoguard grease that I used as a trial and think it is well suited - but it made the new seal too slippery to stay in place at first fitting: so I will (i) apply it after the seal has settled down in the sun to the formed shape and (ii) let the Lanoguard grease dry off before refitting the seal.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Is a squirt of Waxoil in the new seal a sensible precaution I wonder?

 

[Defender90]

Is a squirt of Waxoil in the new seal a sensible precaution I wonder?

lanoguard is better and i will be putting a barrier tape all the way round the roof as well

 

[Viktorgeorge]

Is a squirt of Waxoil in the new seal a sensible precaution I wonder?

I like Languard because it is Lanolin based and not mineral oil based. The latter definitely tends to cause rubber seals to swell (I checked this with the ACF-50 manufacturers and Waxoyl openly state this) whilst Lanolin, I understand, does not.

However, I think that either Waxoyl or Lanoguard will be beneficial at preventing galvanic corrosion under the seal.

 

[Defender90]

I like Languard because it is Lanolin based and not mineral oil based. The latter definitely tends to cause rubber seals to swell (I checked this with the ACF-50 manufacturers and Waxoyl openly state this) whilst Lanolin, I understand, does not.

However, I think that either Waxoyl or Lanoguard will be beneficial at preventing galvanic corrosion under the seal.

Just contacted my local vw centre about providing me with the new seal and me fitting as predicted it’s a no go under warranty so I am just going to pay for it myself and take the hit

 

[Viktorgeorge]

Just contacted my local vw centre about providing me with the new seal and me fitting as predicted it’s a no go under warranty so I am just going to pay for it myself and take the hit

I sympathise, I was very tempted to do that too.

I guess the argument in support is that, as a conscientious owner, you are now aware of the inherent risk, so you will regularly check, clean and re-treat around the seal (as will I). As a result, there is little or no chance of bubbling paint on the aluminium and a resulting need for a warranty claim.

It is not an easy decision, particularly on a brand new vehicle.