BBC Panorama this evening

[soulstyledevon]

Not all of them can ride bikes, or even chose to, is it possible that more do it but the threshold for enforcement is too low?

Agree, possibly.
But again I question how many of the 32m motorists received a ticket for jumping a red light. It’s probably out there somewhere (I can’t be arsed looking) and I’m guessing it far exceeded the number of cyclists fined for the same offence.

 

[GrannyJen]

Agree, possibly.
But again I question how many of the 32m motorists received a ticket for jumping a red light. It’s probably out there somewhere (I can’t be arsed looking) and I’m guessing it far exceeded the number of cyclists fined for the same offence.

Well of course it is. How many cyclists are identifiable? All you are doing is making the case for some totally unnecessary, heavy-handed legislation to have cycles registered.

 

[Amarillo]

Those kids and parents were not facing a £1,000 fine, they COULD be facing a £50 FPN IF an up-his-Arris traffic policeman was passing by

Children under 18 cannot be issued with a FPN, so it’s the beak who decides. And the maximum fine is £1000.

You will note that I made no comment on the likelihood of that happening.

But what is certain is that the person obstructing the cycle path faces no penalty whatsoever. Only if the cycle lane is marked by a solid white line does a driver obstructing the lane face a decriminalised £160 fine (in London only as far as I know).

 

[GrannyJen]

Children under 18 cannot be issued with a FPN, so it’s the beak who decides. And the maximum fine is £1000.

You will note that I made no comment on the likelihood of that happening.

But what is certain is that the person obstructing the cycle path faces no penalty whatsoever. Only if the cycle lane is marked by a solid white line does a driver obstructing the lane face a decriminalised £160 fine (in London only as far as I know).

So, what's your point?

 

[Amarillo]

Not all of them can ride bikes, or even chose to, is it possible that more do it but the threshold for enforcement is too low?

About one in eight Britons cannot ride a bike. 87.5% of 68,000,000 is 59,500,000 cyclists. So one in 14,875 cyclists jump red lights each year (it will be fewer because some red light jumping cyclists will have been issued with multiple tickets).

 

[Amarillo]

So, what's your point?

Cyclists who ride on pavements face stiffer penalties than motorists who drive (or park) in cycle lanes.

 

[GrannyJen]

Cyclists who ride on pavements face stiffer penalties than motorists who drive (or park) in cycle lanes.

not really. Name me the last cyclist you've heard off being fined.

Tom, my point, which you have studiously avoided, is why do cyclists have such a bad reputation in this country?

I cannot go anywhere without the moment "cyclists and cycling" are mentioned having to listen to a stream of invective aimed at them. WHY?

When Jo and I first mentioned to family we were going to buy bicycles and cycle 900 miles across Britain on them our sister in Cheshire pleaded with us not to even think about it. She runs the reception at a large truck service centre in Manchester and listens daily to truckers ranting off about cyclists. She saw us as joining a most hated club. WHY?

My niece, a lovely, fitness fanatic lady who rides a bike, was at dinner with us a couple of weeks ago and cyclists were mentioned and she flew into an instant rage against them.WHY?

That meeting I went to, to discuss cycle friendliness, had me cringing in the corner as cyclists were attacked from every corner. WHY?

Until that WHY is answered then we are never going to get the infrastructure we need. I'm personally pi$$ed off being treated as a leper every time I mention cycling and then going out on the streets and seeing the morons that create that attitude.

 

[westfalia]

we were going to buy bicycles and cycle 900 miles across Britain

That seems a long route if you mean across, or is that including the return.
Ah, yes, probably with the return.

 

[GrannyJen]

That seems a long route if you mean across, or is that including the return.
Ah, yes, probably with the return.

Yes,it was a series of circular trips.

 

[Amarillo]

Agree, possibly.
But again I question how many of the 32m motorists received a ticket for jumping a red light. It’s probably out there somewhere (I can’t be arsed looking) and I’m guessing it far exceeded the number of cyclists fined for the same offence.

All I could find was for 2015 on TfL roads only: 57,692 (“red light running”).

London’s red routes are only 5% of London’s roads but carry 30% of London’s motor traffic. Using that higher figure we can approximate 192,000 TS50 offences in London.

8.9m people live in London.

Again approximating for the whole of the UK we get nearly 1,500,000 motorists running red lights annually.

There are 41.2m licensed drivers in the UK, so about 1:28 was issued with a penalty for jumping a red light.

 

[Amarillo]

Tom, my point, which you have studiously avoided, is why do cyclists have such a bad reputation in this country?

I can only cope with one point at a time.

It’s because they are jealous of our beautifully bronzed and perfectly toned thighs.

 

[andyinluton]

All I could find was for 2015 on TfL roads only: 57,692 (“red light running”).

London’s red routes are only 5% of London’s roads but carry 30% of London’s motor traffic. Using that higher figure we can approximate 192,000 TS50 offences in London.

8.9m people live in London.

Again approximating for the whole of the UK we get nearly 1,500,000 motorists running red lights annually.

There are 41.2m licensed drivers in the UK, so about 1:28 was issued with a penalty for jumping a red light.

That is complete and utter rubbish.

You cant approximate anything using the information you have because:
1. Standard of driving in London is far worse than anywhere else in Uk
2. Number of cameras in London is far denser than 99% of the uk
3. You cant prove that its not only in London & only on Red Routes that there's a problem.
4. why 1:28 ? its probably the same bloke on cloned plates.
5. Anywhere South of the River in London is a no-go zone after dark, you would be mad to stop.


I could just as validly say Ive seen 2 cyclists going through one red light, none stopped. Therefore across the globe 100% of cyclists don't obey red lights.

I could also say that in two weeks staying on Iona I didn't see a single motorist jump a red light, therefore 100% of motorists are 100% law-abiding.

You do make up some absolutely unbelievable statistics.

 

[GrannyJen]

I can only cope with one point at a time.

It’s because they are jealous of our beautifully bronzed and perfectly toned thighs.

that might be you,

They are probably dazzled by my wobbly, glow-white thighs

 

[Amarillo]

You do make up some absolutely unbelievable statistics.

Calm down. It’s only a very rough approximation based on a little nugget of evidence. I would have thought that was obvious.

 

[WelshGas]

Ok, so give me some stats.
Give me the numbers of tickets issued to cyclist running red lights in 2021 vs car drivers…

Seeing as most Red Light violations by cars are captured by a Red Light Camera and DVLA identify the vehicle owner from the Registration Number captured on the photograph, numbers for cyclists will only be collected when the Bicycle/ Owner/Rider can be identified.
You have made an excellent argument for Registration and Identification of all Bicycles/Cyclists.

 

[WelshGas]

Quick google

2014
7000 cyclists fined for riding on the pavement with a fine of up to £1000.
4000 cyclists fined for jumping red lights.

2021
2,000,000 motorists fined for speeding (2.4m tickets issued, 0.4m successfully challenged)

Using dodgy logic, a motorist is 500 times more likely to speed than a cyclist is to jump a red light.

Excellent , comparing 2014 with 2021 figures.

The majority, if not all, Red Light violations by motor vehicles are now captured by Camera and the vehicle owner identified by DVLA from the registration number.
With the reduction in Local and Traffic Police on the ground Cyclists are unlikely to be Charged or Fined, unless injured in an accident, as they cannot be identified by Red Light Cameras.
An excellent argument for an identification system for ALL road users, and the introduction of Pavement cameras.

 

[andyinluton]

Calm down. It’s only a very rough approximation based on a little nugget of evidence. I would have thought that was obvious.

I am calm, just amazed that someone thinks that producing statistics based on no evidence is a good idea and furthers an argument.

Anyone could produce similar deliberately misleading statistics.

For example I can guarantee that more people have been caught jumping Red lights on the A1 than the M1 - one significant difference between the two roads it that cyclists can use the A1, no motorists at all were caught on the M1, therefore it it would be logical to argue that its the cyclists jumping the lights.

You got any better argument actually based on fact?

 

[Amarillo]

I am calm, just amazed that someone thinks that producing statistics based on no evidence is a good idea and furthers an argument.

Anyone could produce similar deliberately misleading statistics.

For example I can guarantee that more people have been caught jumping Red lights on the A1 than the M1 - one significant difference between the two roads it that cyclists can use the A1, no motorists at all were caught on the M1, therefore it it would be logical to argue that its the cyclists jumping the lights.

You got any better argument actually based on fact?

I am calm, just amazed that someone thinks that producing statistics based on no evidence is a good idea and furthers an argument.

Anyone could produce similar deliberately misleading statistics.

For example I can guarantee that more people have been caught jumping Red lights on the A1 than the M1 - one significant difference between the two roads it that cyclists can use the A1, no motorists at all were caught on the M1, therefore it it would be logical to argue that its the cyclists jumping the lights.

You got any better argument actually based on fact?

I clearly stated the figures for TfL and how I extrapolated an approximation for the whole country. I also made it clear that it was a very rough approximation.

I could have given an alternate figure with reasonable confidence.

The number of motorists receiving a penalty for jumping red lights on TfL red routes was 1:714 of licensed drivers in the UK.

Red routes are just 360 miles of Britain’s 247,800 miles of road (0.15%), so the proportion of British drivers jumping red lights in the UK will be significantly greater than the 1:714 caught on just 0.15% of the road network.

 

[Amarillo]

Excellent , comparing 2014 with 2021 figures.

The majority, if not all, Red Light violations by motor vehicles are now captured by Camera and the vehicle owner identified by DVLA from the registration number.
With the reduction in Local and Traffic Police on the ground Cyclists are unlikely to be Charged or Fined, unless injured in an accident, as they cannot be identified by Red Light Cameras.
An excellent argument for an identification system for ALL road users, and the introduction of Pavement cameras.

Have you ever heard of facial recognition technology?

 

[andyinluton]

The number of motorists receiving a penalty for jumping red lights on TfL red routes was 1:714 of licensed drivers in the UK.

No it isn't unless you are 100% certain that each offence was committed by a different driver.

Red routes are just 360 miles of Britain’s 247,800 miles of road (0.15%), so the proportion of British drivers jumping red lights in the UK will be significantly greater than the 1:714 caught on just 0.15% of the road network.

Had you even considered that perhaps the density of traffic lights might be somewhat different outside TFLs Red Routes?

Have you also considered that 3/4 of red light cameras in the UK are on TFL routes?



Using the reported TFL stats below:

Transport for London Conducted a survey at 5 different locations around London and marked the number of cyclists who went through red lights.

Total Cyclists who ran a red light – 1180 / 6322
% Cyclists of went through a red light – 16%.
% of cyclists who didn’t go through a red light – 84%
The number of male cyclists observed at these junctions was 78% of the total number of cyclists. Women account for 22% of observed cyclists.
The figure for men running red lights (17%) was slightly higher than women (13%), though there doesn’t seem to be a significant gender gap.
In general, cyclists who ride through red lights are more likely to do so whilst travelling straight ahead at a junction. They are least likely to do so when turning right.
54% of red light violations were for cycling straight ahead. 24% for turning left. 18% for turning right.


And their stats stating there are 161,000 cycle journeys per day, its pretty easy to extrapolate that there would be 161000/6322= 25.47 x 1180 = 30,050 offences per day x 365 = 10,968,465 cycle offences per year thats just in London .

Seems to me that its the Cyclists that jump the lights not the cars. based on TFLs own survey.
Even your wildly inaccurate calculated figures suggest 3.5% of motorists jump the lights, TFLs actual observed number was 16% for cyclists.

 

[Amarillo]

No it isn't unless you are 100% certain that each offence was committed by a different driver.



Had you even considered that perhaps the density of traffic lights might be somewhat different outside TFLs Red Routes?

Have you also considered that 3/4 of red light cameras in the UK are on TFL routes?



Using the reported TFL stats below:

Transport for London Conducted a survey at 5 different locations around London and marked the number of cyclists who went through red lights.

Total Cyclists who ran a red light – 1180 / 6322
% Cyclists of went through a red light – 16%.
% of cyclists who didn’t go through a red light – 84%
The number of male cyclists observed at these junctions was 78% of the total number of cyclists. Women account for 22% of observed cyclists.
The figure for men running red lights (17%) was slightly higher than women (13%), though there doesn’t seem to be a significant gender gap.
In general, cyclists who ride through red lights are more likely to do so whilst travelling straight ahead at a junction. They are least likely to do so when turning right.
54% of red light violations were for cycling straight ahead. 24% for turning left. 18% for turning right.


And their stats stating there are 161,000 cycle journeys per day, its pretty easy to extrapolate that there would be 161000/6322= 25.47 x 1180 = 30,050 offences per day x 365 = 10,968,465 cycle offences per year thats just in London .

Seems to me that its the Cyclists that jump the lights not the cars. based on TFLs own survey.
Even your wildly inaccurate calculated figures suggest 3.5% of motorists jump the lights, TFLs actual observed number was 16% for cyclists.

As previously stated, a direct comparison is not possible. Motorist 1, 2 and 3 jump a red light. Number 4 stops. Number 5 and subsequent cant jump the lights because 4 blocks them. Red light jumping cyclists aren't blocked, they could either slip down the inside or outside. So a better estimate for red light jumping motorists would be obtained by counting just those who have an opportunity to jump the lights and ignore those for whom jumping lights is not an option. Somewhere between 50% and 75% is my best guesstimate.

Alternatively, go by the proportion of FPNs.

About 1 in 15,000 cyclists
Probably somewhere between 1 in 714 and 1 in 28 motorists (but if you go by the TfL's figures on 0.15% of the road network it could be as high as 1 in 1.)

 

[andyinluton]

So a better estimate for red light jumping motorists would be obtained by counting just those who have an opportunity to jump the lights and ignore those for whom jumping lights is not an option. Somewhere between 50% and 75% is my best guesstimate.



About 1 in 15,000 cyclists
Probably somewhere between 1 in 714 and 1 in 28 motorists (but if you go by the TfL's figures on 0.15% of the road network it could be as high as 1 in 1.)

So motorists are guilty because they might have done it if the opportunity arose.

Whereas cyclists the only figures you use are your guess based upon convictions, despite me giving you the results of TFLs own survey that showed 16% actually did it.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Excellent , comparing 2014 with 2021 figures.

The majority, if not all, Red Light violations by motor vehicles are now captured by Camera and the vehicle owner identified by DVLA from the registration number.
With the reduction in Local and Traffic Police on the ground Cyclists are unlikely to be Charged or Fined, unless injured in an accident, as they cannot be identified by Red Light Cameras.
An excellent argument for an identification system for ALL road users, and the introduction of Pavement cameras.

I disagree.
GrannyGen stated there’s a nationwide endemic of cyclist jumping red lights, yet very few prosecutions…?
If the situation was that bad, which btw it isn’t. Then it would be easy for the authorities to catch out and fine cyclists and set/make an example and easily funded with the million upon millions of pounds generated from these fines.

The reality is, it’s complete nonsense. It’s justifiable garbage thrown at a segment of society to polarise views…

UTTER NONSENSE

 

[SamSara]

I disagree.
GrannyGen stated there’s a nationwide endemic of cyclist jumping red lights, yet very few prosecutions…?
If the situation was that bad, which btw it isn’t. Then it would be easy for the authorities to catch out and fine cyclists and set/make an example and easily funded with the million upon millions of pounds generated from these fines.

The reality is, it’s complete nonsense. It’s justifiable garbage thrown at a segment of society to polarise views…

UTTER NONSENSE

My preferred ATS are the ones where they accept that it is far safer to send off the cycles first so hold back the cars on a red and filter out the bikes-which is sort of what a lot of cyclists do themselves at red lights.

 

[sidepod]

Driving through town last week a cyclist just rode across a pelican crossing in front of me. Lights were green for me.
Obvs I had to brake/Bell end behind me (1m gap) almost dropped his phone!

In his defence, he did raise a hand of apology (or it might have been to adjust his massive head phones?).