Belgium - T4 Help...

[bxl_lad]

A question to the Belgians on here...
I changed the wheels on my T4 Cali last year (after the last technical control). The wheels I put are original VW/ BBS wheels that were available as an option on the Cali at that time (see pic).

However, tomorrow I go to the next control and I read on the DIV website that if your wheels/tyres don't match what is listed in the 'Certificate of Conformity' document, then that's not allowed...

I bought these wheels specifically to keep the van with as 'original equipment' as possible - Of course upon looking to the C.o.C. for my van it only lists the original 15" wheel size as was on the van, so not covering the 16" that the BBS wheels are... Of course I already sold on my old wheels...

So... Firstly anyone any experience of this?
Secondly, if it comes to this failing the control - would anyone be able to 'loan' me a set of 15" wheels so I can get it through the test (I visited a VW garage this morning and they said that's what folks do - they pass the control with the correct wheels and then swap them back after! - They also said that it wasn't possible to have the C.o.C. rectified, amended or supplemented - though I find it hard to believe with the sale of aftermarket wheels of all sizes that there isn't some leeway on this??)

Any advice?

Merci/Bedankt/Cheers!

 

[2into1]

That doesn't sound very logical...
I do understand that many countries (Inc Germany) check the correct wheels are fitted as part of the "mot', and record the part number, but there must be accommodation for folks changing wheels. As the part number of your new wheels will match the spec for 150hp Cali Westys, I would have thought your case would be easier to argue than if you'd bought some after market wheels.
Sorry I can't be of more help, but I think you should dive in and take the test and see what advice they give. Perhaps going armed with a database print out showing your wheels were supplied on Westys would help.

 

[bxl_lad]

Not everything in Belgium is logical

Yeah, I've put a few things together to show they're original equipment. I'm just going on the info I found on the website of the Belgian authority responsible for the checks (DIV). Maybe its not so strict, but given the trouble we had to convince them the T4 Cali was a camper-van in the first place...

Any suggestions for a good source of info to print out?

I don't believe for one minute that all these folks adding fancy low profile, oversized rims, to their 'rides' turn up to the check with another set of wheels... But ok...

Some local insight would be interesting...

 

[2into1]

Any suggestions for a good source of info to print out?

Some members here seem to be able to pull up parts base documents, showing exploded drawings and lists of part numbers. @sidepod or @WelshGas may be able to help.... Or remember who can do it.

 

[sidepod]

All very odd. I would assume standard VW part numbered wheels, such as your BBS units would pass

 

[WelshGas]

Some members here seem to be able to pull up parts base documents, showing exploded drawings and lists of part numbers. @sidepod or @WelshGas may be able to help.... Or remember who can do it.

Not everything in Belgium is logical

Yeah, I've put a few things together to show they're original equipment. I'm just going on the info I found on the website of the Belgian authority responsible for the checks (DIV). Maybe its not so strict, but given the trouble we had to convince them the T4 Cali was a camper-van in the first place...

Any suggestions for a good source of info to print out?

I don't believe for one minute that all these folks adding fancy low profile, oversized rims, to their 'rides' turn up to the check with another set of wheels... But ok...

Some local insight would be interesting...

Hi All. I can only find this site and the Brochure information. Checkout the Brochures for 1999/2000 and 2000/2001.
I can only see 15" BBS alloys mentioned.

http://www.westfaliat4.info/html/vw_westfalia_t4_transporter_mo.html

 

[sidepod]

Extract from VW sales brochure 2003 Freestyle

 

[bxl_lad]

Hmm... not helping my case (evidence is pointing towards only available on the 150kw...)
Saw the same in here (http://www.westfaliat4.info/01_2001_CaliforniaBothPriceList.pdf).

Oh well, have taken a copy of this and loads of 'showroom' pics with T4 Cali's sporting those wheels... Lets see if they're reasonable... Wish me luck! (update to follow tomorrow!)

 

[sidepod]

But surely that helps? The wheels are over spec'd.

 

[zeratul]

Belgian law says that you can fit any tyre as long as the circumference is within a 2% range of one of the official origin wheel/tyres from the COC.
You can check it here (dutch) http://www.goca.be/nl/banden
As for the alloys (velgen) the law doesn't require a size as long as the 2% range is honored
See here (dutch) http://www.goca.be/nl/p/ak-pa-banden

 

[bxl_lad]

Well - back from the control, no mention of the wheels/tyres - a lot of panic over nothing! (Seems you have the good info Zeratul ) ...Sorry guys...

However... nothing is straight forward in this life... It failed on something i wasn't expecting!
A few months ago I had a Bearlock fitted (professionally in the Netherlands), but they have welded a part of it to the subframe and this is not allowed apparently - so now i have to p*ss about going to VW to get them to say yay or nay if thats ok... If they say not, then the subframe has to be replaced according to the DIV!
Something I will not be paying for!!

Watch this space... So, new question - Any Belgian T4 owners with a Bearlock fitted and did you have any issues with the control due to this?

 

[sidepod]

Blimey! Looks like they let the apprentice practice his welding then?

 

[bxl_lad]

Yes - not amused...

...also seems I have a leak somewhere too! Not the best start to the day...

 

[bxl_lad]

Belgian law says that you can fit any tyre as long as the circumference is within a 2% range of one of the official origin wheel/tyres from the COC.
You can check it here (dutch) http://www.goca.be/nl/banden
As for the alloys (velgen) the law doesn't require a size as long as the 2% range is honored
See here (dutch) http://www.goca.be/nl/p/ak-pa-banden

Good to know...
The official tyre size in the C.o.C. (for want of a better acronym!) is 205/65/R15, the tyres I actually have are 225/60/R16 - this size fails the check on this website in fact - So either they didn't check properly or they have different tolerances at the DIV?
But if i were to fit 205/60/R16 then these would be ok according the calculator...
I'll be changing tyres later this year so I will be adding this size tyres to be safe!

 

[sidepod]

Seems like a lot of Belgian waffle to me.....get it?.....Belgian waf.......I'll get me coat.

 

[bxl_lad]

The Bearlock situation still not resolved... Going through all the parties involved trying to find a resolution, but its looking more and more likely that the Belgian authorities are going to demand the subframe replaced!
Not at all happy about this... Bearlock and the Dutch fitters so far being very helpful, but not sure who's going to have to foot the bill if the subframe needs swapping out - not a happy-chappy here...
Any Belgian T4 owners with a Bearlock out there - have you ever had this problem with the annual control inspection?

 

[sidepod]

Oh sheeeeeeet!! Best of luck.

 

[bxl_lad]

Oh sheeeeeeet!! Best of luck.

Tell me about it!

 

[Hotel California]

Not so good news , who installed this ? Didn't they told you there was cutting and welding involved?

 

[bxl_lad]

I won't mention too many names as I'm still dealing with the parties involved, but it was fitted by a Bearlock approved garage in the Netherlands. In all honesty I didn't ask how they would install it, figuring they'd done many installations and so had no concerns that anything out of the ordinary would be done. Also, not knowing of such rules about welding to certain parts of the vehicle, I just didn't worry...

I had it done back in October and no issues, but in February I took it to the control and they took an instant dislike to it. I contacted Bearlock straight away and they'd never heard of such an issue.
The issue is not with the lock itself, but the shield plate that's under the van to stop anyone tampering with the lock from underneath. This plate is fixed to the subframe (was in my case welded, though subsequently I took it back to them, they removed it and bolted it - this has not though appeased the DIV who say the issue remains as it WAS welded).
So, DIV wanted VW to approve this modifaction, VW wouldn't even look at it, now I'm in communication with GOCA (who oversee the testing centers) and they're liaising with Bearlock and the Belgian authorities. They haven't given much hope of having a favourable resolution though and its increasingly likely that they will tell me to replace the subframe if I want the vehicle passed...

Its just crazy! If the strength of the subframe, of what is essentially a commercial vehicle, can be compromised by a 5-6cm weld, then to be honest I would strongly question the build quality of VW - but we know the T4 is a tank, so this just doesn't make sense. And to rip apart a perfectly good vehicle to put it back together with what would most likely be second hand (unkown history) parts, really bothers me - "can open, worms everywhere..."

But for now I just have to wait until someone makes a decision... I just hope it can be resolved without all that additional work/expense, but that if it does come to it, that I don't have to foot the bill - that will be a whole new episode in this saga...

 

[Bellcrew]

I won't mention too many names as I'm still dealing with the parties involved, but it was fitted by a Bearlock approved garage in the Netherlands. In all honesty I didn't ask how they would install it, figuring they'd done many installations and so had no concerns that anything out of the ordinary would be done. Also, not knowing of such rules about welding to certain parts of the vehicle, I just didn't worry...

I had it done back in October and no issues, but in February I took it to the control and they took an instant dislike to it. I contacted Bearlock straight away and they'd never heard of such an issue.
The issue is not with the lock itself, but the shield plate that's under the van to stop anyone tampering with the lock from underneath. This plate is fixed to the subframe (was in my case welded, though subsequently I took it back to them, they removed it and bolted it - this has not though appeased the DIV who say the issue remains as it WAS welded).
So, DIV wanted VW to approve this modifaction, VW wouldn't even look at it, now I'm in communication with GOCA (who oversee the testing centers) and they're liaising with Bearlock and the Belgian authorities. They haven't given much hope of having a favourable resolution though and its increasingly likely that they will tell me to replace the subframe if I want the vehicle passed...

Its just crazy! If the strength of the subframe, of what is essentially a commercial vehicle, can be compromised by a 5-6cm weld, then to be honest I would strongly question the build quality of VW - but we know the T4 is a tank, so this just doesn't make sense. And to rip apart a perfectly good vehicle to put it back together with what would most likely be second hand (unkown history) parts, really bothers me - "can open, worms everywhere..."

But for now I just have to wait until someone makes a decision... I just hope it can be resolved without all that additional work/expense, but that if it does come to it, that I don't have to foot the bill - that will be a whole new episode in this saga...

Would the DIV not accept the opinion of a qualified mechanical engineer who would certify that the vehicle structure has not been compromised by the modification? Must be some in Belgium who, for a fee, would be willing to issue such a note.

 

[bxl_lad]

That would be a logical approach - sadly I fear logic is lacking from this process... But yeah, I will ask the question when they come back to me...
Would you know of any such facilities?

 

[Bellcrew]

That would be a logical approach - sadly I fear logic is lacking from this process... But yeah, I will ask the question when they come back to me...
Would you know of any such facilities?

Most countries have inspection bodies that certify the safe use of dangerous equipment such as boilers/crane etc. It is possible that one of these inspectors could give an opinion on the soundness of the weld/ strength of the chassis/sub-frame affected, this would only be of use if the authority would accept the opinion.
It is unlikely but not impossible that the sub-frame is made from a high tensile steel the condition of which would give cause for concern if the welding was at all extensive.

 

[Raf]

Hello bxl_lad.. i just saw your problem (don't look much in this part of the forum even that I also have a T4 beside my California.
Is the problem solved? Can I help you with a phone-number from somebody at Dieteren? (The COC division) maybe these guys could try to help you (because I know VW Belgium is a pain in the *** when it is about 'speciale things'

 

[bxl_lad]

Hi Raf,

Well sadly no, the situation continues… Currently the van is ‘officially’ off the road as the control expired. I’ve tried with VW, their central office in Anderlecht where they deal with COC matters and they were no use at all – wouldn’t even look at it. It didn’t help that my technical French is limited (and Dutch not at all…) and they spoke no English – a friend of mine contacted them on my behalf, but still no joy. They said as this was an aftermarket piece attached to the vehicle, then its nothing to do with them…

So now I’m waiting on the final decision from the GOCA office, who oversee the ‘control’ inspection facilities. They’re now allegedly trying a last ditch attempt to get an exception ruling from the Belgian auto authorities (whoever they may be…), but to be honest I don’t hold out much faith in that part of the process – they (GOCA) don’t answer emails and when I do get through to them every few weeks, then seems nothing has progressed and I’m to wait…

The issue all lies with the fact that the installer of the Bearlock welded the protection plate for the device (there is a steel plate fixed under the vehicle to stop the lock being tampered with from below), to the subframe of the vehicle (this apparently is a big no-no for the Belgian control inspection – no welding is to be done on the suspension elements of a vehicle). I guess that part of the legislation is aimed at avoiding vehicles having broken or damaged suspension being fixed, but of course this is not the case… Anyway, the installer already removed the plate and instead bolted it (which apparently would have been ok in the first place), but as welding had been done to the subframe then they’re (the ‘control’) saying that the subframe has now to be replaced – I’m trying to avoid this as, one, its ridiculous, there’s nothing wrong with it! Two, I’m worried that having all the suspension & subframe removed, replaced (the subframe at least) and refitted, will leave me with a whole new set of issues (there’s nothing wrong with the van and the way its running/handles currently) and three, who’s going to pay for all that – certainly I don’t want to!

Crazy thing is, there are certainly other T4’s running around Belgium with Bearlocks fitted in this way, but I’m seemingly the first to get this issue with the control. In the Netherlands (where the lock was sourced and fitted) this is not an issue at all. Ultimately if the subframe has to come off, then it will only be by the grace of Bearlock and/or the fitter that they might pay for it – honestly I’m not looking forward to trying to get them to agree to that…

So, for the time being I’m sitting it out until there is a definitive decision, but then I have a van that for the moment I can’t use…

So, Raf… I’m not sure who your contact is at VW, is it a personal contact? Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated as its becoming a joke now. If I could just get VW to inspect the vehicle and give a letter to the fact that this change to the vehicle poses no issue for the integrity of the subframe then that should be enough to get the control off my back – but it would need to be an official letter and ultimately from the COC division I guess…


Cheers, Matt