DSG Gearbox manoeuvring uphill & going downhill

[burnercan]

Good intel, as you would say. Thanks, it will be nice if the bus just needs to learn!

 

[Jabberwocky]

Soooo just spoke with colleague who’s thang is transmissions.

It’s seems these dual clutch boxes use a learning algorithm for set off. They monitor throttle position and take note of how the vehicle performs during take off adjusting clutch bite point and duration accordingly then applying this next time.

So Burnercan you need to spend more time driving up your ramp until you’re happy with the performance.

Just give it the beans.

Wow! A Cali with AI!!

 

[sidepod]

Emphasis on the artificial!

 

[B J G]

I was advised not to use the foot brake, handbrake instead as it cuts out the hill hold delay, does make it a smoother start but a bit multi-limb coordination needed.

I had to give up trying to reverse my trailer up the drive with a curve. No problem with previous Discovery and BMW automatics.

I've found that being patient in that rev up slightly-wait-rev a little more if nothing moves etc.
Either it or me is getting better after over a year.

My wife's EOS had a DSG which was totally 'normal' when parking etc. I had expected the Cali to be the same but it wasn't.

 

[Skinnee D]

know the Golf has a dry clutch pack vs. wet in the T6, but the rest of the system should be pretty much the same principles. Just that the VW utility guys are used to making vans for builders instead of people who actually want to drive.

I did read somewhere that the Cali dsg transmission is the same unit (DQ500) currently used in the Audi RS3 as it's their only dsg that can handle the torque. I can't imagine an Audi RS3 dsg would drive quite the same though!

 

[andrew bazeley]

I don't have a clue about the techy stuff, but I have direct experience of all this, as I have a 2008 Cali DSG, and my wife has a 2017 Golf DSG. The Cali has the old and predictable "creep forward" when you start in drive. But the Golf has the automatic handbrake, and I assumed it is this that causes the "shooting forward" problem. I've found that the only way to deal with it (the auto-hold) is to just tap your foot lightly on the accelerator. That releases the brake, and you can then use the accelerator as normal (ie. smoothly!). Seems to work for me.

The tips on this thread about going down hills are great - thanks!

 

[sidepod]

I did read somewhere that the Cali dsg transmission is the same unit (DQ500) currently used in the Audi RS3 as it's their only dsg that can handle the torque. I can't imagine an Audi RS3 dsg would drive quite the same though!

I had one. For a start the RS3 has 7 cogs. Can’t recall what the torque figure was but it had 367bhp. It’s was a lovely Box. It probably runs a different software map in the Cali.

 

[Paul S]

I don't have a clue about the techy stuff, but I have direct experience of all this, as I have a 2008 Cali DSG, and my wife has a 2017 Golf DSG. The Cali has the old and predictable "creep forward" when you start in drive. But the Golf has the automatic handbrake, and I assumed it is this that causes the "shooting forward" problem. I've found that the only way to deal with it (the auto-hold) is to just tap your foot lightly on the accelerator. That releases the brake, and you can then use the accelerator as normal (ie. smoothly!). Seems to work for me.

The tips on this thread about going down hills are great - thanks!

Pre-2010 facelift the gearbox was a tiptronic not a DSG ie, a conventional torque converter auto box not a dual clutch robotised one. There’s a good - from an engineering point of view - series of posts on YouTube by Autoexpert.au entitled Is DCT right for me? It may be eye opening stuff to the many people who -understandably - don’t actually know what magic goes on under the bonnet to make the car go.

 

[burnercan]

Another oddity I've found, manual mode won't give me second gear before 2100 rpm no matter how insistent I am on the paddles. In D however, 2nd rolls in almost imperceptibly sometime after I lift my foot from the brake.

 

[BikerGran]

Going downhill, the DSG is default set to free-rolling (gear in neutral) if you don't give any gas. When you brake going downhill, the gearbox thinks you want to go slower and engages a gear to use the engine to brake. Just touch the gas pedal slightly again to engage free-rolling if you don't want to engine brake. This feature can be disabled so the gearbox never free-roll going downhill.

It's all a matter of personal preference isn't it? I like the fact that my Cali engages a lower gear if I brake on a downhill, because that's exactly what I would do if I were driving with a manual box.

 

[AlanM]

Or, if you have the paddles, you can click it up a gear if you want to.

 

[BikerGran]

I don't have paddles (2007 T5 Tiptronic) but I can use the gear selector to change gear - never felt the need in 2 years!

 

[WelshGas]

Tiptronic and DSG are two totally different systems and act in totally different ways.

 

[BikerGran]

Tiptronic and DSG are two totally different systems and act in totally different ways.

So I understand - but they are both 'automatic' (ie no clutch pedal to deal with) - which is what's important to me.

 

[Marty78]

Afternoon all

I have just taken delivery (week ago) of a 199ps DSG Ocean. Had to drive back from Horsham to Birmingham on the 1st drive. The first thing I noticed was the lag people are talking about which I put down to the engine and gearbox being new and me not being used to it.

My experience is you have to pull off really gently before extending throttle but it is a bit unsatisfactory and so far means quick acceleration from a tight junction is impossible. My wife had the same experience and we have both owned auto BMW’s and Audi’s with DSG boxes before.

I was expecting just to live with it until today when I took it to the detailers for a ceramic coating and they drove it and said there is something seriously wrong with it! This could be the hill start thing as it was on a slight incline and they had to reverse it upwards to get it in the workshop?

The guys at the workshop knew their stuff with cars as run race teams etc but now having read this thread I am not so sure if it is the brake the DSG or nothing to worry about!

Rang the dealer who said there should be no lag and power delivery should be smooth and advised I get a VW call out but as it’s in the Detaillers for few days not a lot I can do.

Any advice greatly welcomed.

Thanks

Martin

 

[Jabberwocky]

I have lost patience with the idiosyncratic DSG over the last two and a half years. Hill starts, reversing uphill. paddles not letting me use what gear I want to use, driving down hill with a quick tap on the brakes and it selects a gear at least one lower that I would have done which just leaves me with a screaming engine that wakes up half the population in rural France etc etc.
We are in the process of changing our DSG Cali for a manual gearbox that will at least give some of the control, the DSG stole, back to me.

 

[Legin]

Afternoon all

I have just taken delivery (week ago) of a 199ps DSG Ocean. Had to drive back from Horsham to Birmingham on the 1st drive. The first thing I noticed was the lag people are talking about which I put down to the engine and gearbox being new and me not being used to it.

My experience is you have to pull off really gently before extending throttle but it is a bit unsatisfactory and so far means quick acceleration from a tight junction is impossible. My wife had the same experience and we have both owned auto BMW’s and Audi’s with DSG boxes before.

I was expecting just to live with it until today when I took it to the detailers for a ceramic coating and they drove it and said there is something seriously wrong with it! This could be the hill start thing as it was on a slight incline and they had to reverse it upwards to get it in the workshop?

The guys at the workshop knew their stuff with cars as run race teams etc but now having read this thread I am not so sure if it is the brake the DSG or nothing to worry about!

Rang the dealer who said there should be no lag and power delivery should be smooth and advised I get a VW call out but as it’s in the Detaillers for few days not a lot I can do.

Any advice greatly welcomed.

Thanks

Martin

Its what they are like Im afraid , both my wife and I noticed it. I cant figure if its the gearbox or turbo lag , I suspect the latter. I have a suspicion it could be programming associated with the emissions mods ie slower step off to reduce a surge in emissions when pulling away.
I have noticed that it drives much better now I have 1500 miles on it and that using Sport makes things much better. Could be I have learnt to drive around it. My BMW and Shogun autos are in a different league.

 

[Alan Andrews]

I've also had similar issues with reversing on any form of slope.

My van goes in for routine service and inspection service on Monday, and I have alerted them to the potential issue. I'll wait to see if they find anything or adjust anything.

Having done a lot of reading on this matter in the past 6 months, I'm of the opinion that I need to do a full DSG reset. I have a vcds tool, and have instructions from the vcds manufacturer, which includes driving for a set time in various gears in order for the computer to learn again.

I'm putting this down to the van being 18 months old when I bought it, and the previous owner drove in a very different style to me!

If anything comes from the service on Monday then I'll post an update.

 

[Marty78]

Its what they are like Im afraid , both my wife and I noticed it. I cant figure if its the gearbox or turbo lag , I suspect the latter. I have a suspicion it could be programming associated with the emissions mods ie slower step off to reduce a surge in emissions when pulling away.
I have noticed that it drives much better now I have 1500 miles on it and that using Sport makes things much better. Could be I have learnt to drive around it. My BMW and Shogun autos are in a different league.

Thanks Legin

That’s how I feel - it’s just getting used to it and it is a van after all. I just haven’t quite mastered the art of a risky manoeuvre yet - probably for the best .

It was the opinion of a 3rd party today that got me worried but they are used to driving super cars not Cali’s.
Will get some more miles under my belt and report back

 

[Marty78]

I've also had similar issues with reversing on any form of slope.

My van goes in for routine service and inspection service on Monday, and I have alerted them to the potential issue. I'll wait to see if they find anything or adjust anything.

Having done a lot of reading on this matter in the past 6 months, I'm of the opinion that I need to do a full DSG reset. I have a vcds tool, and have instructions from the vcds manufacturer, which includes driving for a set time in various gears in order for the computer to learn again.

I'm putting this down to the van being 18 months old when I bought it, and the previous owner drove in a very different style to me!

If anything comes from the service on Monday then I'll post an update.

Thanks Alan that would be very useful. I have been driving in a more refined manner as it’s brand new and although running in is a bit old fashioned I don’t usually give it much welly until 1,000 miles

 

[Marty78]

I have lost patience with the idiosyncratic DSG over the last two and a half years. Hill starts, reversing uphill. paddles not letting me use what gear I want to use, driving down hill with a quick tap on the brakes and it selects a gear at least one lower that I would have done which just leaves me with a screaming engine that wakes up half the population in rural France etc etc.
We are in the process of changing our DSG Cali for a manual gearbox that will at least give some of the control, the DSG stole, back to me.

Sorry to hear that Jabberwocky but good luck with your new van -I hope if fine some balance - loving it apart from that

 

[Jabberwocky]

Sorry to hear that Jabberwocky but good luck with your new van -I hope if fine some balance - loving it apart from that

Thanks. Yes, other than the DSG we love our van. More than 150 nights away in last two years.

 

[Marty78]

Spoke to the Detailler again this morning and they advised they had another new DSG Cali in a few weeks ago albeit a Beach so only difference must be the weight and it drove fine in their opinion. Have booked it into the dealers for a check up on Friday and will report back - my gut feel is they will say nothing wrong with it etc but will wait and see

 

[WelshGas]

Spoke to the Detailler again this morning and they advised they had another new DSG Cali in a few weeks ago albeit a Beach so only difference must be the weight and it drove fine in their opinion. Have booked it into the dealers for a check up on Friday and will report back - my gut feel is they will say nothing wrong with it etc but will wait and see

A little bedtime reading.

 

[AlanC]

Its what they are like Im afraid , both my wife and I noticed it. I cant figure if its the gearbox or turbo lag , I suspect the latter. I have a suspicion it could be programming associated with the emissions mods ie slower step off to reduce a surge in emissions when pulling away.
I have noticed that it drives much better now I have 1500 miles on it and that using Sport makes things much better. Could be I have learnt to drive around it. My BMW and Shogun autos are in a different league.

I don't think the issue is turbo lag. Most modern turbos produce smooth power much further down the rev range than was previously the case. Not like the old Fiat Scudo my daughter drives which comes on song very much later than compared to our Cali.

The lag I think is due entirely to the DSG gearbox.

As these are dual shift boxes, with two clutches I believe. Odd gears are on one shaft and evens on the other. The gearbox computer preselects the gear to change to depending on various parameters, such as speed, acceleration, braking and so on.

So if you are braking to enter a roundabout, see a space and try and accelerate into it, the gearbox will be in the wrong gear and will want to change to a lower one, however as it was coming down the box during braking, it isn't ready with the right gear and takes a frighteningly long time the select the right lower one.

I now don't try to rush into a space at a junction just because of too many of these heart-stopping moments.

At lights, I release the foot brake on the Amber, so the van just starts to creep forward on idle and then on the Green the takeoff is smooth and instant.

As @VWguru has mentioned in a past thread, the gearbox computer learns your way of driving but can be reset.

Alan