DSG Gearbox manoeuvring uphill & going downhill

[Legin]

It shouldnt be turbo lag I agree as thats the whole point of a twin turbo. However Im still not convinced that its the dsg as its not present in other twin clutch gearbox,s like the PDK although my passat dsg was similar I have to say but that was single turbo so put it down to that.

Also the dsg in my Q5 3.0 diesel didnt do it. I might hook up VCDS and see what the boost is doing that would answer it I suspect.
The other point is that the twin clutch selection isnt the problem because the issue manifests itself from rest so is either in first or reverse with plenty of thinking time. The mechatonics learning reset is the adaption function.

The other thing I mentioned before is a suspicion around reprogramming on the 199 to get emissons under control and with a fly by wire throttle I suspect we are getting short changed on light openings.
Reason is if you hoof it then a huge torque spike arrives. It could be as simple as the throttle profile ?

 

[Alan Andrews]

I've also had similar issues with reversing on any form of slope.

My van goes in for routine service and inspection service on Monday, and I have alerted them to the potential issue. I'll wait to see if they find anything or adjust anything.

Having done a lot of reading on this matter in the past 6 months, I'm of the opinion that I need to do a full DSG reset. I have a vcds tool, and have instructions from the vcds manufacturer, which includes driving for a set time in various gears in order for the computer to learn again.

I'm putting this down to the van being 18 months old when I bought it, and the previous owner drove in a very different style to me!

If anything comes from the service on Monday then I'll post an update.

Update.... van was serviced on Monday. I asked that the DSG be investigated because of lack of power when reversing up/down any incline (great or small). Official inspection report came back as "normal behaviour for vehicle". The engineer did comment that there is a lag because of the weight of the vehicle.

I think that I will use my vcds soon to do a full reset. I'll post a further update on whether this changes anything.

 

[Hylus]

Update.... van was serviced on Monday. I asked that the DSG be investigated because of lack of power when reversing up/down any incline (great or small). Official inspection report came back as "normal behaviour for vehicle". The engineer did comment that there is a lag because of the weight of the vehicle.

I think that I will use my vcds soon to do a full reset. I'll post a further update on whether this changes anything.

I’d be very interested to know if the reset helps Alan.

We have a 2019 T6 4Motion 199 DSG and are really struggling with it. At roundabouts or junctions is impossible to pull away with any speed at all. You just have to creep forward slowly and accelerate slowly. Putting your foot down a little to try and get going a bit quicker causes the van to leap into action like a scalded cat, with all the passengers head banging along!

When manoeuvring slowly the throttle response is very weird - you get very little response as you press down on the accelerator (in either forward or reverse) so you push a little more and a little more until the van suddenly lurches forward or backward.

We previously had a 2013 T5 4Motion 180 DSG and, although there was some lag when pulling away, it was absolutely nothing like as bad as the T6.

We’ve only done 500 miles in the T6 so far so maybe things will improve but it’s so disappointing to drive compared with our old vehicle it’s hard not to want to go back! I guess that we’ll need to take it in to the dealer for them to give us their opinion and maybe test drive another to compare.

 

[WelshGas]

I’d be very interested to know if the reset helps Alan.

We have a 2019 T6 4Motion 199 DSG and are really struggling with it. At roundabouts or junctions is impossible to pull away with any speed at all. You just have to creep forward slowly and accelerate slowly. Putting your foot down a little to try and get going a bit quicker causes the van to leap into action like a scalded cat, with all the passengers head banging along!

When manoeuvring slowly the throttle response is very weird - you get very little response as you press down on the accelerator (in either forward or reverse) so you push a little more and a little more until the van suddenly lurches forward or backward.

We previously had a 2013 T5 4Motion 180 DSG and, although there was some lag when pulling away, it was absolutely nothing like as bad as the T6.

We’ve only done 500 miles in the T6 so far so maybe things will improve but it’s so disappointing to drive compared with our old vehicle it’s hard not to want to go back! I guess that we’ll need to take it in to the dealer for them to give us their opinion and maybe test drive another to compare.

I’m trying to get my head round why you think your problem is related to the DSG Gearbox.
If the vehicle is moving forward then it is In Gear. You seem to have a problem with the accelerator response.
Normally the DSG lag is because the DSG box is changing to the correct gear, so there is No Motion until the correct gear is engaged.

 

[Hylus]

I’m trying to get my head round why you think your problem is related to the DSG Gearbox.
If the vehicle is moving forward then it is In Gear. You seem to have a problem with the accelerator response.
Normally the DSG lag is because the DSG box is changing to the correct gear, so there is No Motion until the correct gear is engaged.

You make a very good point. Initially I did assume that the problem lay just with the throttle response but it feels like the throttle and gearbox are fighting each other. As the accelerator is drive-by-wire I presume that the gearbox and throttle negotiate between themselves how much gas to apply when the gearbox is ready for it. 1st gear seems to such a high ratio that low revs produce very little speed, higher revs a little more speed and when the engine revs climb higher still the gearbox decides to change to 2nd and you get a great boot in the back as the clutch is quickly let out with the engine still at higher revs. So I guess it's a combination of both things.

From reading the posts in this thread I thought that we were experiencing similar symptoms to some of the others but maybe not. I'll go out in the van now to be sure that I'm describing the issue correctly and will report back!

 

[Marty78]

You make a very good point. Initially I did assume that the problem lay just with the throttle response but it feels like the throttle and gearbox are fighting each other. As the accelerator is drive-by-wire I presume that the gearbox and throttle negotiate between themselves how much gas to apply when the gearbox is ready for it. 1st gear seems to such a high ratio that low revs produce very little speed, higher revs a little more speed and when the engine revs climb higher still the gearbox decides to change to 2nd and you get a great boot in the back as the clutch is quickly let out with the engine still at higher revs. So I guess it's a combination of both things.

From reading the posts in this thread I thought that we were experiencing similar symptoms to some of the others but maybe not. I'll go out in the van now to be sure that I'm describing the issue correctly and will report back!

This sounds identical to our 199ps DSG MY19 and am learning to live with it given some of the other threads and comments and speaking to other news owners. Sport mode definitely helps level this out a bit but a smooth quick acceleration takes some practice. I was going to take it to the dealer but going to preserve for a while but keep me posted on any test drives etc. Good luck

 

[Hylus]

So I'm back from my test drive(s) We still also have our T5 so I took that out too as a back-to-back comparison. I apologize in advance for the essay which follows....

The issue seems to be throttle / clutch / gearbox related (which I assume are all aspects of the DSG box).

Creeping when maneuvering
At low revs the engine in the T5 gives the impression of being far more powerful than the T6. Taking your foot off the brake in the T5 will move you forwards (or backwards when in R) at a reasonable pace, enough for slow speed maneuvering to park without having to touch the throttle. While the T6 moves at a snails pace when the brake is released which forces you to press the throttle most of the time. In the T5 a small press on the pedal has a marked effect while in the T6 you need to move it quite a long way to achieve any results.

I tried reversing up a slight hill in the T6. Initially the hill-hold feature held it after I released the brake. Tapping the throttle released the hill-hold but at idle (800 rpm) the gearbox wasn't delivering enough power to hold the vehicle so it started to roll forwards again. I quickly had to press the throttle to stop me rolling into a post in front of me and eventually got me moving up the hill. It felt less than satisfactory! On the same hill in the T5 as soon as I tapped the throttle to release the hill-hold the van started moving up the hill. No need to depress the throttle at all.

Now for accelerating from a standstill
In the T6 I released the brake and the van started to creep forwards at 800 rpm. I pressed the throttle and the revs rose to just over 2K rpm but with no corresponding change to the speed of the van. After a second or so the van suddenly accelerated and the revs rose to nearly 3K rpm. Then second gear engaged and we were off. It didn't seem to matter how hard I pressed the pedal - the first bit was always exactly the same. It was only after the second delay, when the power kicked in, that it became apparent how hard the pedal had been pressed as we would either move off smoothly or like a rocket. There is no feedback to let the driver know how much gas has been applied until it's too late.

In the T5 I released the brake and the van started to move forwards purposefully at 800 rpm. Pressing the throttle caused the van to accelerate slowly but the revs rose much more quickly than the speed. After half a second or so the van suddenly accelerated and the revs rose to nearly 3K rpm. Then second gear engaged and we were off. The difference to the T6 being that, before the clutch engaged, the revs seemed to rise higher depending on how much gas had been applied, giving valuable feedback to gauge how fast we'd launch once the clutch engaged.

To conclude
I suspect that there are 3 differences between our T5 and our T6 which result in an unsatisfying drive in the T6:
1) The clutch biting point. At low speed I suspect that the clutch is slipping in the T6 at idle which would explain why the van can still roll forwards or backwards when supposedly in gear and on a slight slope. The clutch transfers far more power in the T5 when the engine is idling.
2) The throttle response. It's a long way from linear which gives the feel that the engine is feeble when depressed lightly and the point at which it changes to unleash more power is quite sudden and unexpected. The T5 feels more linear.
3) The way in which the revs are restricted when slipping the clutch in 1st gear gives no feedback to the driver to help gauge the throttle position. It seems better in the T5.

@Marty78 does this still sound familiar?

I wonder if any of these things can be fixed or if it's just the way it is and we'll either have to live with it or go back to our T5

 

[NZCol]

Interesting observations. I’ve had DSG in our Golf and it was odd sometimes. We test drove a DSG beach and as we have to reverse uphill and round a corner to our garage. It was almost impossible to get it in and out - bearing in mind I put 6.5m vans in here quite regularly. The throttle response uphill in reverse was binary - on or off. Twice it just wouldn’t actually go up the hill! Long story short we ordered a manual !

 

[Marty78]

So I'm back from my test drive(s) We still also have our T5 so I took that out too as a back-to-back comparison. I apologize in advance for the essay which follows....

The issue seems to be throttle / clutch / gearbox related (which I assume are all aspects of the DSG box).

Creeping when maneuvering
At low revs the engine in the T5 gives the impression of being far more powerful than the T6. Taking your foot off the brake in the T5 will move you forwards (or backwards when in R) at a reasonable pace, enough for slow speed maneuvering to park without having to touch the throttle. While the T6 moves at a snails pace when the brake is released which forces you to press the throttle most of the time. In the T5 a small press on the pedal has a marked effect while in the T6 you need to move it quite a long way to achieve any results.

I tried reversing up a slight hill in the T6. Initially the hill-hold feature held it after I released the brake. Tapping the throttle released the hill-hold but at idle (800 rpm) the gearbox wasn't delivering enough power to hold the vehicle so it started to roll forwards again. I quickly had to press the throttle to stop me rolling into a post in front of me and eventually got me moving up the hill. It felt less than satisfactory! On the same hill in the T5 as soon as I tapped the throttle to release the hill-hold the van started moving up the hill. No need to depress the throttle at all.

Now for accelerating from a standstill
In the T6 I released the brake and the van started to creep forwards at 800 rpm. I pressed the throttle and the revs rose to just over 2K rpm but with no corresponding change to the speed of the van. After a second or so the van suddenly accelerated and the revs rose to nearly 3K rpm. Then second gear engaged and we were off. It didn't seem to matter how hard I pressed the pedal - the first bit was always exactly the same. It was only after the second delay, when the power kicked in, that it became apparent how hard the pedal had been pressed as we would either move off smoothly or like a rocket. There is no feedback to let the driver know how much gas has been applied until it's too late.

In the T5 I released the brake and the van started to move forwards purposefully at 800 rpm. Pressing the throttle caused the van to accelerate slowly but the revs rose much more quickly than the speed. After half a second or so the van suddenly accelerated and the revs rose to nearly 3K rpm. Then second gear engaged and we were off. The difference to the T6 being that, before the clutch engaged, the revs seemed to rise higher depending on how much gas had been applied, giving valuable feedback to gauge how fast we'd launch once the clutch engaged.

To conclude
I suspect that there are 3 differences between our T5 and our T6 which result in an unsatisfying drive in the T6:
1) The clutch biting point. At low speed I suspect that the clutch is slipping in the T6 at idle which would explain why the van can still roll forwards or backwards when supposedly in gear and on a slight slope. The clutch transfers far more power in the T5 when the engine is idling.
2) The throttle response. It's a long way from linear which gives the feel that the engine is feeble when depressed lightly and the point at which it changes to unleash more power is quite sudden and unexpected. The T5 feels more linear.
3) The way in which the revs are restricted when slipping the clutch in 1st gear gives no feedback to the driver to help gauge the throttle position. It seems better in the T5.

@Marty78 does this still sound familiar?

I wonder if any of these things can be fixed or if it's just the way it is and we'll either have to live with it or go back to our T5

Hylus. Excellent summary I haven’t tested monitoring revs etc but may do over the weekend but this does sound about right. Ours has done nearly 500 miles so similar to you. I have nothing to compare to but will see how I get on and report back

 

[soulstyledevon]

Interesting observations. I’ve had DSG in our Golf and it was odd sometimes. We test drove a DSG beach and as we have to reverse uphill and round a corner to our garage. It was almost impossible to get it in and out - bearing in mind I put 6.5m vans in here quite regularly. The throttle response uphill in reverse was binary - on or off. Twice it just wouldn’t actually go up the hill! Long story short we ordered a manual !

I was parked forward on a Hill last week.
Got in selected reverse, let foot off brake, van creeps forward slowly, hit accelerator and nothing. The van is getting closer to the brick wall in front and I quickly grab the handbrake. A second later and the van would be in the wall.

Had this happen a few times now.

 

[Hylus]

It's disappointing to hear that others have just the same issue. I was hoping that there might be some who have the T6 DSG and don't have these problems. Or at least had found a way to fix these issues. I'm still holing out a glimmer of hope that there might be a way to solve this either by mechanical adjustment or altering the DSG software. However going down the DSG remap route sounds a bit scary on a brand new vehicle as I'd worry about losing our warranty.

Serves me right for not test driving before ordering - I stupidly assumed that VW would have made the T6 better to drive than the T5, not worse! Crazy that none of the reviews seem to mention this. Although maybe the reviews were of the 204 and not the 199.

I'd be really interested to hear if any 204 owners have noticed the same problem. Sadly I can't track this from people's Vehicle ID on the forum as there's no 199 option, only 204.

 

[Bellcrew]

It's disappointing to hear that others have just the same issue. I was hoping that there might be some who have the T6 DSG and don't have these problems. Or at least had found a way to fix these issues. I'm still holing out a glimmer of hope that there might be a way to solve this either by mechanical adjustment or altering the DSG software. However going down the DSG remap route sounds a bit scary on a brand new vehicle as I'd worry about losing our warranty.

Serves me right for not test driving before ordering - I stupidly assumed that VW would have made the T6 better to drive than the T5, not worse! Crazy that none of the reviews seem to mention this.

The October 2016 MMM road test did mention that the 204 ps was "a bit too eager, a tad harsh and with power that was too sensitive to tiny movements of the right foot"

 

[Nick Stubbs]

I find mine ok, it is a little sluggish to go uphill in reverse but I have mastered that now. I recon its the best thing I have driven its just taken a little getting used too.

 

[Hylus]

The October 2016 MMM road test did mention that the 204 ps was "a bit too eager, a tad harsh and with power that was too sensitive to tiny movements of the right foot"

Interesting. Quite the opposite of what we're finding. It adds weight @Legin's suspicion that it's due to the programming associated with the emissions mods for the 199

 

[Hylus]

I find mine ok, it is a little sluggish to go uphill in reverse but I have mastered that now. I recon its the best thing I have driven its just taken a little getting used too.

Hi Nick. Could I ask if yours is a 204 or 199 ?

 

[Nick Stubbs]

204 June 2017 15000 on the clock

 

[Hylus]

204 June 2017 15000 on the clock

Thanks v much Nick. I'll start a log of who has the problem and who doesn't to see if it really is a 199/204 issue.

 

[burnercan]

due to the programming associated with the emissions mods for the 199

Mine is a 150 that had delayed delivery for this emissions issue last year, it behaves badly when reversing uphill also. I've also gotten used to it, but I'd really like to improve it when the warranty runs out...

 

[Nick Stubbs]

I will say if you have a heavy right foot the wheels will spin without too much effort.

 

[Tom Rae]

So I'm back from my test drive(s) We still also have our T5 so I took that out too as a back-to-back comparison. I apologize in advance for the essay which follows....

The issue seems to be throttle / clutch / gearbox related (which I assume are all aspects of the DSG box).

Creeping when maneuvering
At low revs the engine in the T5 gives the impression of being far more powerful than the T6. Taking your foot off the brake in the T5 will move you forwards (or backwards when in R) at a reasonable pace, enough for slow speed maneuvering to park without having to touch the throttle. While the T6 moves at a snails pace when the brake is released which forces you to press the throttle most of the time. In the T5 a small press on the pedal has a marked effect while in the T6 you need to move it quite a long way to achieve any results.

I tried reversing up a slight hill in the T6. Initially the hill-hold feature held it after I released the brake. Tapping the throttle released the hill-hold but at idle (800 rpm) the gearbox wasn't delivering enough power to hold the vehicle so it started to roll forwards again. I quickly had to press the throttle to stop me rolling into a post in front of me and eventually got me moving up the hill. It felt less than satisfactory! On the same hill in the T5 as soon as I tapped the throttle to release the hill-hold the van started moving up the hill. No need to depress the throttle at all.

Now for accelerating from a standstill
In the T6 I released the brake and the van started to creep forwards at 800 rpm. I pressed the throttle and the revs rose to just over 2K rpm but with no corresponding change to the speed of the van. After a second or so the van suddenly accelerated and the revs rose to nearly 3K rpm. Then second gear engaged and we were off. It didn't seem to matter how hard I pressed the pedal - the first bit was always exactly the same. It was only after the second delay, when the power kicked in, that it became apparent how hard the pedal had been pressed as we would either move off smoothly or like a rocket. There is no feedback to let the driver know how much gas has been applied until it's too late.

In the T5 I released the brake and the van started to move forwards purposefully at 800 rpm. Pressing the throttle caused the van to accelerate slowly but the revs rose much more quickly than the speed. After half a second or so the van suddenly accelerated and the revs rose to nearly 3K rpm. Then second gear engaged and we were off. The difference to the T6 being that, before the clutch engaged, the revs seemed to rise higher depending on how much gas had been applied, giving valuable feedback to gauge how fast we'd launch once the clutch engaged.

To conclude
I suspect that there are 3 differences between our T5 and our T6 which result in an unsatisfying drive in the T6:
1) The clutch biting point. At low speed I suspect that the clutch is slipping in the T6 at idle which would explain why the van can still roll forwards or backwards when supposedly in gear and on a slight slope. The clutch transfers far more power in the T5 when the engine is idling.
2) The throttle response. It's a long way from linear which gives the feel that the engine is feeble when depressed lightly and the point at which it changes to unleash more power is quite sudden and unexpected. The T5 feels more linear.
3) The way in which the revs are restricted when slipping the clutch in 1st gear gives no feedback to the driver to help gauge the throttle position. It seems better in the T5.

@Marty78 does this still sound familiar?

I wonder if any of these things can be fixed or if it's just the way it is and we'll either have to live with it or go back to our T5

Interesting, is your T5 Tiptronic or an earlier configuration of DSG? I ask as I am hopeful this can be corrected by software modification by VW.

Tom

 

[Hylus]

Mine is a 150 that had delayed delivery for this emissions issue last year, it behaves badly when reversing uphill also. I've also gotten used to it, but I'd really like to improve it when the warranty runs out...

Thanks v much @burnercan. Is the 150 the same PS before and after the latest emissions mods? I should maybe be logging whether each van has an AdBlue tank or not i.e. is Euro6.2 compliant rather than going on the PS.

Interesting that yours behaves the same as mine.

 

[Hylus]

Interesting, is your T5 Tiptronic or an earlier configuration of DSG? I ask as I am hopeful this can be corrected by software modification by VW.

Tom

The T5 is also DSG which is why I was so surprised that they feel so different.
I'm also hoping that software might be able to correct this. I'm discussing with Revo at the moment. They haven't yet released a remap for the T6 Euro6.2 engine/DSG yet but I'm hoping that it might not be far off. Still a scary idea to remap such a new vehicle though!

 

[Nick Stubbs]

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, I belive the earlier DSG was a wet clutch 6 speed where as the later is a 7 speed with a dry clutch, we had a rig for testing the earlier one as it used to judder, we devopolped the factory fill for the box.

 

[Hylus]

According to Wikipedia:



Although this gives no dates so I don't know when the DL501 was introduced or if it's been superseded now

 

[Lightning]

Mine is a 2018 204 TSI and normally seems to be fine, I have done 15000 miles. I have no noticeable delay and can regulate power delivery. The only time I had this problem was reversing out of an abnormally steep dirt driveway around a tight bend in a Spanish village, I had to apply a lot of of throttle before it would start to move and then it took off like a catapult.


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