Electric Scooters

Amarillo said:
I think we do need them.
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Why? Aren’t legs, scooters, cycles and (if you need) one e-cycles enough ?
I think a problem with e-scooters is the riding position is vertical, making them seem more affiliated with pedestrian spaces. You do see them on the carriageway (sometimes BELTING along with no helmet) and as long as they respect pedestrian crossings I don’t have a particular problem with that. There are more on the pavements though picking their way through crowds or flying round blind comers. I have been clipped by one and if I’d been 2 seconds earlier it might have been nasty. If they can be confined to the carriageways they will probably be acceptable in my view, but I don’t believe they can... I see enough adult cyclists on the pavement in London
 
Personally I think the safety concerns are a natural and to be expected human response that will ultimately pass or be sensibly managed. New things bring new risks and the human brain is wired to respond disproportionately to new unknown risks and become desensitised to the ones they face on a daily basis.
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We should however see them for what they are or risk becoming - a new form of conspicuous consumption, a luxury item, and not the saviour of the planet or the gift of mobility to the poor. For me their use as controlled utilitarian hire vehicles should be expanded, park and scoot would be great?
If private ownership & use becomes legal sales will skyrocket, many will be bought and barely used and in a few months or years they will be toxic landfill.
At the same time the hire companies will either suffer a rapid demise or require propping up by public subsidy like other forms of public transport.
 
Borris said:
:D Come on Tom, do you really believe that nonsense?

You keep pointing out that the car is the real villain in what seems like all circumstances. That may or may not be true however they exist and they aren't the issue here. This post is about Escooters.

As far as I can assertain the Escooter is currently only on trial as a hire vehicle in various locations around the country. You can buy them but they can only legally be used on private land. So the assumption is that their being allowed on a permanent basis isn't a certainty.

The concern is not so much about Escooters as they are merely inanimate objects. No, the real objection to Escooters is the way in which they are likely to be used. They are becoming a frequent sight in our towns and very often they are not being riden in a safe and legal manner. Since their widespread use is not yet approved these concerns need addressing now before the final decisions are made. By constantly comparing their use to that of the villainous car driver isn't helpful or that relevant. The objection has little to do with road space and everything to do with the manner in which they will doubtless be ridden.

The question of enforcement applies to all road users including cars, cycles and Escooters. Just because one group of road users are often guilty of breaking the law in some way or other doesn't mean that it's ok to let another new group onto the roads to do the same. If we cannot enforce the law adequately then should we be introducing them at all? These issues need careful consideration now.
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It is not nonsense
Flat dwellers often have nowhere to store a bicycle or e-bike, and are unable to or would find it difficult to haul a bike or e-bike up several flights of stairs or balanced on a rear wheel in the lift (when working).

For these carless or bikeless people, a scooter or e-scooter provides the perfect solution for travel outside comfortable walking distances, and saves on the cost of public transport.

If we really want to level up society we should be promoting them. Of course they need regulation, but a template for regulation is already there: for e-bikes. Yes it will need adjustment, but the basics are already in place: speed limit for the motor, lights, bell, pavements, etc.

And of course I keep referring to the motor car. It is the biggest non-natural cause of death in the world. It is never likely that e-bikes and e-scooters will cause such carnage.

And as for enforcement, again the motor car gives us a useful example in enforcement with speeding. Speeding is endemic. People speed, often multiple times on a single trip. There is a light touch to enforcement, with 10% +2mph widely overlooked. Likewise, pavement cycling, with multiple Home Secretaries reminding Chief Constables that the fixed penalty is not for cyclists on the pavement cycling with consideration for pedestrians using the pavement out of fear of using the road.

I’d expect the same light touch enforcement for people on the pavement using e-scooters, with the reckless punished and the considerate given words of advice.

So the solution seems obvious: close residential roads to through car traffic where possible, provide cycle/scooter lanes on main roads (which might be shared with busses) where possible. A transfer of road space from the motor vehicle to scooters and bikes.
 
Amarillo said:
It is not nonsense
Flat dwellers often have nowhere to store a bicycle or e-bike, and are unable to or would find it difficult to haul a bike or e-bike up several flights of stairs or balanced on a rear wheel in the lift (when working).

For these carless or bikeless people, a scooter or e-scooter provides the perfect solution for travel outside comfortable walking distances, and saves on the cost of public transport.

If we really want to level up society we should be promoting them. Of course they need regulation, but a template for regulation is already there: for e-bikes. Yes it will need adjustment, but the basics are already in place: speed limit for the motor, lights, bell, pavements, etc.

And of course I keep referring to the motor car. It is the biggest non-natural cause of death in the world. It is never likely that e-bikes and e-scooters will cause such carnage.

And as for enforcement, again the motor car gives us a useful example in enforcement with speeding. Speeding is endemic. People speed, often multiple times on a single trip. There is a light touch to enforcement, with 10% +2mph widely overlooked. Likewise, pavement cycling, with multiple Home Secretaries reminding Chief Constables that the fixed penalty is not for cyclists on the pavement cycling with consideration for pedestrians using the pavement out of fear of using the road.

I’d expect the same light touch enforcement for people on the pavement using e-scooters, with the reckless punished and the considerate given words of advice.

So the solution seems obvious: close residential roads to through car traffic where possible, provide cycle/scooter lanes on main roads (which might be shared with busses) where possible. A transfer of road space from the motor vehicle to scooters and bikes.
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Perhaps we should revisit this topic in say five years time.

Doubtless Escooters will be given the green light and introduced on a hire basis at first with privately owned Escooters eventually being made legal on the roads as well. Of course they will not cause the "carnage" that the motor vehicle does. That isn't the point. In most cases an Escooter will not be replacing a motor vehicle. However, as a good deal of the evidence to date suggests their riders will almost certainly cause a significant degree of nuisance to others and with the pressures on policing, the light touch you refer to will almost certainly translate into the police only taking action if someone gets injured or killed. If their riders were to stick to the roads and cycle paths as intended and try to abide with the road traffic regulations then bring them on. But you and I both know that they won't.
 
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Amarillo said:
It is not nonsense
Flat dwellers often have nowhere to store a bicycle or e-bike, and are unable to or would find it difficult to haul a bike or e-bike up several flights of stairs or balanced on a rear wheel in the lift (when working).

For these carless or bikeless people, a scooter or e-scooter provides the perfect solution for travel outside comfortable walking distances, and saves on the cost of public transport.

If we really want to level up society we should be promoting them. Of course they need regulation, but a template for regulation is already there: for e-bikes. Yes it will need adjustment, but the basics are already in place: speed limit for the motor, lights, bell, pavements, etc.

And of course I keep referring to the motor car. It is the biggest non-natural cause of death in the world. It is never likely that e-bikes and e-scooters will cause such carnage.

And as for enforcement, again the motor car gives us a useful example in enforcement with speeding. Speeding is endemic. People speed, often multiple times on a single trip. There is a light touch to enforcement, with 10% +2mph widely overlooked. Likewise, pavement cycling, with multiple Home Secretaries reminding Chief Constables that the fixed penalty is not for cyclists on the pavement cycling with consideration for pedestrians using the pavement out of fear of using the road.

I’d expect the same light touch enforcement for people on the pavement using e-scooters, with the reckless punished and the considerate given words of advice.

So the solution seems obvious: close residential roads to through car traffic where possible, provide cycle/scooter lanes on main roads (which might be shared with busses) where possible. A transfer of road space from the motor vehicle to scooters and bikes.
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Well put, l think the way we use urban roads needs rethinking.
I attend the Watford Cycle Forum, run by the council, at which there is alot of talk, which appears to lead to little action around the borough's roads. Many roads should be for shared space use. Until they are, I'll remain a considerate pavement cyclist.
 
Borris said:
Perhaps we should revisit this topic in say five years time.

Doubtless Escooters will be given the green light and introduced on a hire basis at first with privately owned Escooters eventually being made legal on the roads as well. Of course they will not cause the "carnage" that the motor vehicle does. That isn't the point. In most cases an Escooter will not be replacing a motor vehicle. However, as a good deal of the evidence to date suggests their riders will almost certainly cause a significant degree of nuisance to others and with the pressures on policing, the light touch you refer to will almost certainly translate into the police only taking action if someone gets injured or killed. If their riders were to stick to the roads and cycle paths as intended and try to abide with the road traffic regulations then bring them on. But you and I both know that they won't.
Click to expand...

The photo posted of the man with the red flag ahead of an automobile beautifully demonstrates the fear of new personal transport developments.

Of course there will be a proportion of those who don’t abide by the rules; likewise there will be those who get annoyed by them and consider e-scooters a nuisance. The same is true of both motorists and cyclists. But that is not a sufficient reason to ban e-scooters.
 
SusiBus said:
Well put, l think the way we use urban roads needs rethinking.
I attend the Watford Cycle Forum, run by the council, at which there is alot of talk, which appears to lead to little action around the borough's roads. Many roads should be for shared space use. Until they are, I'll remain a considerate pavement cyclist.
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I won’t even allow my boys (6 & 7) to use the pavement, and only rarely have. As cyclists we should assert our right to use the road and not allow ourselves to be bullied into unlawful activity.
 
Amarillo said:
As cyclists we should assert our right to use the road and not allow ourselves to be bullied into unlawful activity.
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But doing so can be potentially dangerous due to the attitude of some "entitled" motorists who see cyclists in the same way as some pedestrians see escooters.
 
E Scooters will be the saviour for all those patients on Transplant Waiting lists.
The future looks good for them.
 
Told with humour, please note the smileys:

A few weeks ago I was riding through Worthing, a chaotic seafront prom, shared space but no delineation. People bang and crash into each other all over the place, mobility scooters scything through the ranks of walking frame users, cyclists bowling pedestrians over like nine pins, even a bloody train makes an appearance during school holiday time!

I was stopped by someone who wanted to know if I was carrying a pump. No problem, he had a flat, I had the time and the pump. During conversation an E-scooter whizzed by. He revealed he hated them, he was a paramedic and had enough of picking up broken bodies that had been bounced off E scooters or had an E scooter bounce into them. I was very influenced by these sage words of first-hand experience from someone who put safety first.

He pumped his tyre up, I got back on my bike, he got on his bike and with a cheery wave of thanks went on his way. I was still fastening my helmet, he was not wearing one :shocked
 
Amarillo said:
The photo posted of the man with the red flag ahead of an automobile beautifully demonstrates the fear of new personal transport developments.

Of course there will be a proportion of those who don’t abide by the rules; likewise there will be those who get annoyed by them and consider e-scooters a nuisance. The same is true of both motorists and cyclists. But that is not a sufficient reason to ban e-scooters.
Click to expand...

That red flag regulation may "beautifully demonstrate the fear of new personal transport developments" however according to your many statements vilifying the motor vehicle, that fear of the new fangled motor car seems to have been well and truly substantiated. Whilst the advent of the Escooter is in no way comparable I do have concerns not fears about their effects on those living, working or just visiting towns and inner cities.

I used to sit on several Police Crime and Disorder groups in East Kent. The principal role of those groups is to highlight the main C&D issues effecting the quality of life in a given area and then to agree a multi agency plan for reducing those problems. Targets highlighted for action can range from different forms of antisocial behaviour up through to serious crime. I'm not saying that the degree of nuisance caused by Escooter riders will ever warrant the attention of such groups as from experience they only usually focus on the top half a dozen or so priorities, but I am saying that these issues need to be closely looked at now and debated before the current trials end and Es's become a permanent fixture. Better to look at and plan to tackle the potential pitfalls now rather than have to sort out a bigger problem later.

BTW the "nonsense" that I referred to was your assertion that the crux of the objection to Escooters is that, "The road is the domain of those rich enough to have a car, and people are worried about *their* space being used by those who can’t afford a car."

The points you made about those carless people living in flats etc are valid ones but my concerns centre around both the likely manner and where Escooters will probably get used and NOT about who should be permitted to use the roads sytem. If they stay on the roads or cycle ways and obey the laws then that should be fine and dandy.
 
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GrannyJen said:
Told with humour, please note the smileys:

A few weeks ago I was riding through Worthing, a chaotic seafront prom, shared space but no delineation. People bang and crash into each other all over the place, mobility scooters scything through the ranks of walking frame users, cyclists bowling pedestrians over like nine pins, even a bloody train makes an appearance during school holiday time!

I was stopped by someone who wanted to know if I was carrying a pump. No problem, he had a flat, I had the time and the pump. During conversation an E-scooter whizzed by. He revealed he hated them, he was a paramedic and had enough of picking up broken bodies that had been bounced off E scooters or had an E scooter bounce into them. I was very influenced by these sage words of first-hand experience from someone who put safety first.

He pumped his tyre up, I got back on my bike, he got on his bike and with a cheery wave of thanks went on his way. I was still fast3ening my helmet, he was not wearing one :shocked
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:Nailbiting Nooooooo GJ, don't start the helmet argument up again.
 
Borris said:
That red flag regulation may "beautifully demonstrate the fear of new personal transport developments" however according to your many statements vilifying the motor vehicle, that fear of the new fangled motor car seems to have been well and truly substantiated. Whilst the advent of the Escooter is in no way comparable I do have concerns not fears about their effects on those living, working or just visiting towns and inner cities.

I used to sit on several Police Crime and Disorder groups in East Kent. The principal role of those groups is to highlight the main C&D issues effecting the quality of life in a given area and then to agree a multi agency plan for reducing those problems. Targets highlighted for action can range from different forms of antisocial behaviour up through to serious crime. I'm not saying that the degree of nuisance caused by Escooter riders will ever warrant the attention of such groups as from experience they only usually focus on the top half a dozen or so priorities, but I am saying that these issues need to be closely looked at now and debated before the current trials end and Es's become a permanent fixture. Better to look at and plan to tackle the potential pitfalls now rather than have to sort out a bigger problem later.

BTW the "nonsense" that I referred to was your assertion that the crux of the objection to Escooters is that, "The road is the domain of those rich enough to have a car, and people are worried about *their* space being used by those who can’t afford a car."

The points you made about those carless people living in flats etc are valid ones but my concerns centre around both the likely manner and where Escooters will probably get used and NOT about who should be permitted to use the roads sytem. If they stay on the roads or cycle ways and obey the laws then that should be fine and dandy.
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There is a huge amount of venom directed at other road users from motor vehicle users. And an awful lot of disinformation and exaggeration.

But when you look at facts rather than anecdote the car driver is the real villain of our streets. Lawlessness abounds, from speeding to red light jumping to driving on the pavement (or onto the pavement as @andyinluton prefers to call it) to stopping in bike boxes. Yet cyclists, horse riders, and now e-scooters are perceived as the threat. They are not, they are the solution to our choked and choking city streets. They don’t cause congestion, they relieve it. One more e-scooter is (potentially) one less car.

I have never used an e-scooter, and am unlikely ever to buy one. (I can see that I might at some point in the future have a go on someone else’s). But I can see the advantages for a great many people in using them, and while undoubtedly there will be accidents, I don’t foresee carnage. Falling off an e-scooter at 25kph (the speed limit for e-bikes) is unlikely to result in life threatening injury.

So my advice to government would be to regulate and embrace e-bikes. They should revolutionise personal travel in our cities and reduce congestion.
 
Amarillo said:
I don’t foresee carnage. Falling off an e-scooter at 25kph (the speed limit for e-bikes) is unlikely to result in life threatening injury.
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Try walking through Holborn / Covent Garden it’s already mayhem.

It’s not the rider falling off at 25kph that’s going to get hurt, it’s the innocent pedestrian that they collide with that always ends up worse off.

And please stop going on about cars driving on the pavement, there is a huge difference between a car pulling onto a pavement to park where allowed and someone driving along the pavement as an alternative to the road. I drive on the pavement every time I go out it’s the only way to get from my drive to the road. It’s legal.
 
Amarillo said:
There is a huge amount of venom directed at other road users from motor vehicle users. And an awful lot of disinformation and exaggeration.

But when you look at facts rather than anecdote the car driver is the real villain of our streets. Lawlessness abounds, from speeding to red light jumping to driving on the pavement (or onto the pavement as @andyinluton prefers to call it) to stopping in bike boxes. Yet cyclists, horse riders, and now e-scooters are perceived as the threat. They are not, they are the solution to our choked and choking city streets. They don’t cause congestion, they relieve it. One more e-scooter is (potentially) one less car.

I have never used an e-scooter, and am unlikely ever to buy one. (I can see that I might at some point in the future have a go on someone else’s). But I can see the advantages for a great many people in using them, and while undoubtedly there will be accidents, I don’t foresee carnage. Falling off an e-scooter at 25kph (the speed limit for e-bikes) is unlikely to result in life threatening injury.

So my advice to government would be to regulate and embrace e-bikes. They should revolutionise personal travel in our cities and reduce congestion.
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All for the government regulating and embracing e-bikes, and pedal bikes, as well.

The problem is this thread is about E-SCOOTERS.

As an aside, how many vehicles do you have?
 
andyinluton said:
Try walking through Holborn / Covent Garden it’s already mayhem.

It’s not the rider falling off at 25kph that’s going to get hurt, it’s the innocent pedestrian that they collide with that always ends up worse off.

And please stop going on about cars driving on the pavement, there is a huge difference between a car pulling onto a pavement to park where allowed and someone driving along the pavement as an alternative to the road. I drive on the pavement every time I go out it’s the only way to get from my drive to the road. It’s legal.
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I’m not talking about lawful driving on/onto the pavement. I’m only concerned with unlawful driving on/onto the pavement.
 
Amarillo said:
I’m not talking about lawful driving on/onto the pavement. I’m only concerned with unlawful driving on/onto the pavement.
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On e-scooters? That’s where the illegality is rife. Cars on pavements? I don’t know that I see much of that in London. You won’t park for long without a ticket anyway
 
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